DUST Search - Changed my mind. Pull splash resistance from the fatties.

Funkmaster Whale wrote:

Imp Smash wrote:

You guys who are tired of having to eject sentinels from CQC can keep going around and around with ideas on how to weaken the class -- but y'all aren't getting anywhere. Y'all keep trying to figure out a way to make sentinels weaker you will reduce sentinel spam. Instead of figuring the CAUSE of the problem and working on that. It's like watching people weeding a garden by cutting the weeds and not pulling them out by the root.

I would suggest y'all devote some time to figuring as to why Sentinels are being spammed instead of just making threads about literally everything under the sun.

Because in a game with very high alpha weapons like the HMG, Shotgun, Breach, and CR the easiest way for worse (read: bad) players to play is by stacking as much HP in hopes that they can survive long enough to respond. It's not just the HMG that's the problem. Heavies are running around with rifles in CQC maps because having 1200 HP in a tight corridor is better than having 400 regardless of how fast you are.

You either play to not be seen or play to survive enough damage to shoot back. An Assault, for example, that isn't dampened is pretty much mince meat, every time. If you plan on running around and getting yourself scanned, you better have the EHP to survive getting jumped on. Easiest way? Sentinel.

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Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5728	Posted - 2014.12.12 20:10:00 - [31] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: HMG should have a similar DPS to a rifle, but fire _further_ away than rifles IMO. Motivation: A bigger mass fired with high power will reach longer than a small mass fired with less power. You could put them at range with nearly the DPS they have now with turn speed penalty on the gun itself. Tat way if a sentinel wants to stay alive he best keep assaults outside 20m and scouts outside 25-30 or he gets eaten. Heavy armor and shield defenses only make sense on a unit that expects to be caught outside of cover a lot where it is guaranteed to take fire. Or just implement the LR falloff mechanism, HMG can only do good damage far away i.e 100% dps >20m away. Turn speed can be bypassed with a high DPI mouse and/or GIMX very easily. You will never stop someone from using hardware. Balance the game for the game. Balancing based on outliers screws the regular players more than it hinders people who run hardware solutions. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5728	Posted - 2014.12.12 20:14:00 - [32] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: The inevitable problem with all of these proposals is that it doesnt address the core philosophy of how the HMG sentinel became OP in the first place. If the HMG is the irrefutable king of CQC, then what is it's counter? Why use anything else if the HMG is the irrefutable king? Its fairly obvious to see that this mentality has run rampant, just look at any match which has Gallente Research sockets. The buildings often have one or two openings, compete cover from Orbitals, and the only way you're getting in there when it has five HMG heavies is with your own HMG heavies. Mass drivers, grenades, etc qre less effective due to their resistances, as are pretty much any other weapon. So, if the Heavy community can answer the above question without saying, "Herp derp Shotgun Cloak Scouts" or "Herp derp long range", then they remain OP. Everything should have multiple counters, even in its own environment ,especially when its as powerful as an HMG Sentinel. the maps preclude the native sentinel killing weapons access. Most of them require distance. of particular note is the charge sniper. You sure see a lot of THOSE in CQC. Outliers like forge guns and plasma cannon don't have enough distance in CQC to charge and line up a second shot. Hell even a magsec at 35 meters is more likely to kill the sentinel than the reverse (I have done this in a freefit calassault, it was HILARIOUS). But because the useful areas of most maps are clustered in with very few open ranged attack points Sentinels are not frequently exposed to things meant to execute them. Remember the old manus peak? The HMG was borderline worthless there, but the forge gun rocked. but the maps have changed to provide sentinels more places to hide from the things that kill them as fast as they kill assaults. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 495	Posted - 2014.12.15 04:11:00 - [33] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: The inevitable problem with all of these proposals is that it doesnt address the core philosophy of how the HMG sentinel became OP in the first place. If the HMG is the irrefutable king of CQC, then what is it's counter? Why use anything else if the HMG is the irrefutable king? Its fairly obvious to see that this mentality has run rampant, just look at any match which has Gallente Research sockets. The buildings often have one or two openings, compete cover from Orbitals, and the only way you're getting in there when it has five HMG heavies is with your own HMG heavies. Mass drivers, grenades, etc qre less effective due to their resistances, as are pretty much any other weapon. So, if the Heavy community can answer the above question without saying, "Herp derp Shotgun Cloak Scouts" or "Herp derp long range", then they remain OP. Everything should have multiple counters, even in its own environment ,especially when its as powerful as an HMG Sentinel. I can answer that. In that situation you can't clear the heavies out without heavies, orbitals, several unmolested mass driver guys on the roof, or a good dropship pilot. Some of those particular points are VERY heavy friendly. But notice what you had to say to make the above situation: Aeon Amadi wrote: just look at any match which has Gallente Research sockets. The buildings often have one or two openings, compete cover from Orbitals, and the only way you're getting in there when it has five HMG heavies is with your own HMG heavies. In fact a lot of points are super heavy friendly. In fact more than half of the objective points are heavy friendly. In fact the vast majority of points are very friendly. Let me respond with that open point in the middle of the field on Manus Peak dom when it isn't inside a building. How many heavies you see defending the point then? Or even on the field? If half, or more than half, of the points were like that you wouldn't have heavy spam. It's that simple.
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 770	Posted - 2014.12.15 04:14:00 - [34] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Awesome. Just let me know what address I can ship your crow to. I was eagerly waiting for this Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
Meeko Fent True Illuminate 2295	Posted - 2014.12.15 05:04:00 - [35] - Quote Yeah. That makes a great deal of sense. That way the MD can be a good counter to the slow Sents with high alpha and good splash. I am the bluedot. And I will rise again.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5766	Posted - 2014.12.15 08:35:00 - [36] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Awesome. Just let me know what address I can ship your crow to. Dream on pubbie scum EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Savage Mangler Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 221	Posted - 2014.12.15 09:11:00 - [37] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Imp Smash wrote: You guys who are tired of having to eject sentinels from CQC can keep going around and around with ideas on how to weaken the class -- but y'all aren't getting anywhere. Y'all keep trying to figure out a way to make sentinels weaker you will reduce sentinel spam. Instead of figuring the CAUSE of the problem and working on that. It's like watching people weeding a garden by cutting the weeds and not pulling them out by the root. I would suggest y'all devote some time to figuring as to why Sentinels are being spammed instead of just making threads about literally everything under the sun. Because in a game with very high alpha weapons like the HMG, Shotgun, Breach, and CR the easiest way for worse (read: bad) players to play is by stacking as much HP in hopes that they can survive long enough to respond. It's not just the HMG that's the problem. Heavies are running around with rifles in CQC maps because having 1200 HP in a tight corridor is better than having 400 regardless of how fast you are. You either play to not be seen or play to survive enough damage to shoot back. An Assault, for example, that isn't dampened is pretty much mince meat, every time. If you plan on running around and getting yourself scanned, you better have the EHP to survive getting jumped on. Easiest way? Sentinel. sigh I miss the good old days of breaching doorways with my ScR/shotty commando and dropping sentinels like they were bad habits. -YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED- "Good, then they'll know who killed them." Salvation...through Annihilation
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 979	Posted - 2015.01.07 19:40:00 - [38] - Quote You get a bump. I get a bump. EVERYONE gets a bump. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2471	Posted - 2015.01.08 07:38:00 - [39] - Quote From my experience, the heavy is quite easy for me to kill. Even if I don't catch him off guard, I can either finish him or escape a 1v1 with decent survival rate. The problem is that many points requitlre me to fight inside, where a heavy is supposed to shine. Move points to outside, and you'll see heavy use drop. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6193	Posted - 2015.01.08 08:56:00 - [40] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: From my experience, the heavy is quite easy for me to kill. Even if I don't catch him off guard, I can either finish him or escape a 1v1 with decent survival rate. The problem is that many points requitlre me to fight inside, where a heavy is supposed to shine. Move points to outside, and you'll see heavy use drop. My assertion has little to do with ease of dying. In my experience the normal tactic of attacking sentinels involves running in a straight line right at him while shooting. People get confused when their "tactical brilliance" fails them. My assertion is more that without significant danger from vehicle splash that particular feature adds little play value to the game besides marginalizing the utility of normal weapons that would otherwise be used as support and breaching tools. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1735	Posted - 2015.01.08 09:44:00 - [41] - Quote I though the splash resistance isnt working anyway? simply fix, give them heavy weapon fitting reduction.
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6193	Posted - 2015.01.08 10:54:00 - [42] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: I though the splash resistance isnt working anyway? simply fix, give them heavy weapon fitting reduction. Doesn't work. Heavies already have fitting reduction because their pg/cpu was dumped to make it harder to fit light weapons and a full hp tank. Further the resistance only fails versus remote explosives. It's applying correctly against things like plc mass driver and nades. All this idea would do is make sentinels able to fit every slot proto, which would simply shift certain issues elsewhere. In short it would be a bandaid. A better role bonus could easily be found that doesn't increase sentinel tankability or damage output. Honestly one of the things I'd suggest would be scan range. The reason is threefold. Disclaimer: I do not advocate the decrease of sentinel profile or scan db under any circumstances. Leave the precision and stealth to the scouts and logis. It's extremely hard to fit a detection sentinel. It should remain hard. Reasoning as follows. 1. Defensive units need to not be blind. 2. Two of the sentinels can never afford range enhancers on their fits due to low slot counts. Even a caldari sentinel cannot drop it's precision low enough to spot a reasonably damped assault or scout. If this proved untrue, the calsent will still not be able to detect them until they are within killing range. Sentinel inner circles are tiny. 3. Two of the sentinels cannot detect anything but undamped assaults and logi no matter if you fill their highs with precision. Which leaves sentinels sacrificing tank for detection, which means less bricky crap, or sacrificing kincats. Which in turn makes them more vulnerable to incoming fire. I know people want to keep ewar to logis and scouts but this would make a sentinel more dangerous in the hands of a thinker and less of a blind rhino role, which is the place we are at now. Playing a sentinel only really requires thought and planning when you run AV without support. I'd like to see more thought than CHARRRRRRRGE! a little bit of tactical flexibility could work wonders. Plus to my knowledge sentinels do not share scans with the squad. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1557	Posted - 2015.01.08 13:41:00 - [43] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Plus to my knowledge sentinels do not share scans with the squad. 99.9% certain that all passive scans are shared with squad. If the coding were in place to exclude the Heavy, then that coding (or toggle) would be easily replicated. We've been told a few times now that removing shared passives would be a massive undertaking.
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6203	Posted - 2015.01.08 15:32:00 - [44] - Quote To clarify I'd make the bonuses to module efficiency not base suit efficiency. But if passives are shared passives are shared. But ewar should be viable for any suit. Just not at the level of scouts. Enough to be functional. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Boot Booter Titans of Phoenix 1143	Posted - 2015.01.08 15:33:00 - [45] - Quote Hmm.. Ditch the splash resistance.. Amarr - 3% armor resistance to explosive, 2% armor res to projectile Caldari - 3% shield resist to blaster, 2% shield resist to em Gallente - 3% armor resist to rail, 2% armor resistance to explosive Minmatar - 3% shield resist to em, 2% armor resist to rail? Idk would that be better? I wish ccp would have followed eve more closely with damage types. Furthermore we should have the ability to choose ammunition types for our weapons. It could have been easy enough to implement, just sell ammo packs with different damage profiles for each rifle. Each ammo pack lasts the life of the clone.
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6203	Posted - 2015.01.08 15:38:00 - [46] - Quote Woulda, coulda shoulda. we don't have that. We have to play the hand we have been dealt. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Boot Booter Titans of Phoenix 1143	Posted - 2015.01.08 15:40:00 - [47] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Woulda, coulda shoulda. we don't have that. We have to play the hand we have been dealt. Well I know... Hence the first part of that post.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5682	Posted - 2015.01.08 15:45:00 - [48] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Thought about it for a bit and realized that the splash resistance to sentinels was primarily for fighting tanks... Which mostly no longer do splash. Missile tanks aren't HORRIBLE for fighting infantry... But they aren't great either. I'll still scare off an ADS before he ever drops a killshot on me. And since REs seem to bypass the splash resists anyway, let's swap it for something else and giggle while the mass drivers eject the sentinel spam from reality. I think it was added because Grenades and Mass Drivers were killing Sentinels too efficiently. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6208	Posted - 2015.01.08 16:25:00 - [49] - Quote If I recall both weapons were also nerfed about when the resists got added. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1563	Posted - 2015.01.08 17:21:00 - [50] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I think it was added because Grenades and Mass Drivers were killing ~~Sentinels~~ everything too efficiently. FTFY. Though I don't recall if periods of MD spam have ever overlapped with periods of Core Locus Nade spam.

Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6213	Posted - 2015.01.08 18:16:00 - [51] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: I think it was added because Grenades and Mass Drivers were killing ~~Sentinels~~ everything too efficiently. FTFY. Though I don't recall specifically whether or periods of MD spam overlapped with periods of Core Locus Nade spam. It was peppered here and there before both hit critical mass. Nades got the axe first. MDs ate the bullet right about 1.7 right alongside the rifle nerfs. This would have been hunky-dory were it not for the splash resists. Honestly sentinels qualify as the suit most frequently buggered up. Rattati has come closer to balancing the stupid thing than just about anyone. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.


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