DUST Search - [Discussion] Squad Size and Squad Grouping

Vitantur Nothus wrote:

A few possible explanations ...

A. Limited Population
How many squads of six hardened vets are online at any one time? Of that sample, how many are playing on a common battle server? Of that reduced sample, how many are playing the same game mode? Of that further reduced sample, how many are presently waiting in queue?

B. Queue Times / Monotony
If matchmaking were instructed to only produce fair fights, it would need to consistently pit a full vet squad against another full vet squad. At any given time, there are a limited number of vet squads available. This translates to substantially longer queue times. Perhaps more importantly, it translates to fighting the same opponent over-and-over again.

C. Statistical Anomalies
There is a distinct possibility that 6-vet-stomp-squads maintain outlier-grade win:loss ratios. If this is the case (and is considered to be a problem) then squad size reduction is an obvious and tenable solution. If the past is any indication, Rattati doesn't seem to care for outliers. Or stomps, for that matter; a comment by Rattati about soccer teams comes to mind (2014.07.09 19:03, "Hotfix - Episode Charlie: Scotty must die").


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Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 459	Posted - 2014.12.08 07:38:00 - [1] - Quote So there has been a bit of talk about squad sizes here and there and CCP has mentioned that they are discussing it as well. Squad size will have an effect on FW and (so some small extent) PC. I have an opinion on it, which I will soon explain, but wanted to first state that I am typing this thread up, as of now, because I am curious as to what the community opinion is on Squad Size. If you are interested in writing up your opinion for the forums to see in this nobody's (me) thread, please post your opinion in full. I'm a day X (x=I don't even freaking remember) closed vet. Been around as long as you can be around as general public and back in the day we used to have moving MCCs (yay!) and 4 man squads (boo!.) We ALL hated it. Every day we would ***** about it on mic as there were 5 or 6 people on who wanted to squad up (squad finder didn't exist yet) and 1 or 2 folks would have to start their own tiny squad. (Also since we had to pay Aurum for our Universal Translators to chat in out of match channels we had to have something to ***** about or we would be wasting money!) But 4 was a nice round number. If we have 4 person squads then it will be much easier to group up for FW. More importantly we could make groups of squads (Platoons) all grouped to go into a FW match together all nice and structured out as we like. It would also be a huge improvement on qsyncing. It would also make it easier to go into PC having the squads already teamed up into a platoon as we like before the countdown timer starts so we can put more time into strategy. But as I said, 4 people when just doing pubs SUCKS. And I honestly do not want to return to that. Proposal: Create two grouping systems. One for Squads and One for Platoons. They would both be in the tabs on the right side of the screen. Right below the 'Create Squad' tab there would be another tab: 'Create Platoon.' Note: The two systems would have to be able to play together. Ie. they are not split into different matches. System: Create Squad would exist as it is. Works in all game modes. 6 people max. Mostly people would use it for pubs but it would retain the flexibility it has for FW and PC. Create Platoon would essentially create the team grouping before loading into game (outside of Scotty.) People can be invited as normal and squads can be dynamically sized (as they can be now -- this is all already in game and no coding or even changes are needed) based upon the strategy inherent. Platoon would ONLY function in FW and PC game modes. You cannot join a Pub as part of a platoon. The platoon leader is the person who created the platoon initially, controls which battle they enter, and is Squad leader of Squad 0. Disadvantages: --Corps and Large groups of mercs will not be able to go, as a large group, and pub stomp all on the same team. --Depending on coding may exclude the ability of people in squads or separate platoons from being merged. (or this problem may completely not exist; I have no idea how Dust is programmed.) Advantages: --Easier, rounder numbers for FW. --Easier to get everyone in your group into the same game --Easier organization, setup, and communication before game --Shorter wait times for matches as your team is already put together (especially when running against other Platoons) --Would be especially useful if a separate Platoon Finder tab was implemented allowing random players that want to jump on a team and make a more serious run of FW to find other like minded (and like Factioned) people. Would cut down on all of those XXX Faction Warfare squads that just run 6 and tend to get stomped by the full 16 person Qsynced groups. That's my thought. I would like to hear everyone's opinion on the current squad system and what else they think CCP should do. Interesting discussion go!
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 467	Posted - 2014.12.08 23:18:00 - [2] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Disadvantages: --Corps and Large groups of mercs will not be able to go, as a large group, and pub stomp all on the same team. This is wrong... Because it's an advantage of the system, not a disadvantage! Personally, 4-merc squads are fine, but I'm not against keeping 6-merc squads. I suppose you are right. It is an advantage as far as game accessibility and whatnot . I listed it as a disadvantage because I still treat Dust like Eve. Similar concepts, specifically sandbox do whatever, apply. So it may be against the CCP methodology .
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 469	Posted - 2014.12.09 06:00:00 - [3] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati actually directly addressed this on Biomasses Podcast this weekend. I asked him about it and he is iterating on an idea with the CPM but he's generally looking at changing the base squad size to 4x players and eventually trying to link the squads into a platoon for FW. Couple thoughts... 1) Until they up the player count per team, having squad size that is divisible into #16 is a workable idea. That said, your tactical options are dramatically different with 6x per squad than 4x per squad if you aren't trying to form a platoon-like element. 2) They will need to re-look warpoints and some balance aspects with any squad size change. He was. I listened. His answer was what prompted me to get the ball rolling on it now so that we have plenty of time to discuss it and provide more options to Ratt. He, however, also specifically said that 4 man squads were being argued fairly fiercely amongst the devs. At the moment he is for 4 man squads -- however he was not here when we HAD 4 man squads -- and no one who was here when we had 4 man squads wants that. Hence discussion now -- considering past history of 4 man squads being universally hated (and I mean universally -- the squad size increase was the ONLY time EVER we had a change to Dust where there were 0 dissenting opinions) -- do we want to return to 4 man groups? Has the meta and the in game connections matured to the point where that would have fewer downsides than it did way back in closed?
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 472	Posted - 2014.12.09 23:29:00 - [4] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I like this idea a lot. I suggest some of the squad functionality be kept for squads within the Platoon. The leader of squads 1 and 2 should be able to open their squads to their Corp, Alliance, or Public in the squad finder, even if they are from a different Corp and Alliance than the Platoon leader. This would help Coalitions work together, and help fill squads from mercenary Corps or open them to the public. A Platoon Leader should be able to send an independent Squad Leader a Platoon Invite. A Platoon Finder tab in the Squad finder, that Squad Leaders can access, would be nice. Have Platoon Chat replace Team Chat. Have a "No Squad" section that non Platoon members get added to temporarily for the duration of a match to bring the Platoon up to 16 members if it is short. (Squad Leaders in the Platoon can send them Squad invites if they want to take them on for the Orbital WP.) I would think that is how it would work by default? Essentially I am suggesting leave squads as is, but also allow people to access the team tab (create a team basically) like the game does when it matchmakes us. From there I would assume all functionality remains the same (with the exception of not being able to go into pubs.) So I would guess that everything you said, which is the current default/setup for the game, would carry over as I am not suggesting a new system to be coded. But so far all the posts have revolved around my suggestion (except 1) and I would like to hear more other people's opinions and suggestions. Grimmiers wrote: just make a fireteam 4 players have them combine into a squad of 8 and then a platoon for a full team Do you think 4 man squads are large enough? Would dropping down to 4 from 6 improve gameplay? Why or why not?
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 472	Posted - 2014.12.11 07:00:00 - [5] - Quote Guess this issue isn't that important to the community. Sadface :(
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 475	Posted - 2014.12.11 23:40:00 - [6] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: A few possible explanations ... A. Limited Population How many squads of six hardened vets are online at any one time? Of that sample, how many are playing on a common battle server? Of that reduced sample, how many are playing the same game mode? Of that further reduced sample, how many are presently waiting in queue? B. Queue Times / Monotony If matchmaking were instructed to only produce fair fights, it would need to consistently pit a full vet squad against another full vet squad. At any given time, there are a limited number of vet squads available. This translates to substantially longer queue times. Perhaps more importantly, it translates to fighting the same opponent over-and-over again. C. Statistical Anomalies There is a distinct possibility that 6-vet-stomp-squads maintain outlier-grade win:loss ratios. If this is the case (and is considered to be a problem) then squad size reduction is an obvious and tenable solution. If the past is any indication, Rattati doesn't seem to care for outliers. Or stomps, for that matter; a comment by Rattati about soccer teams comes to mind (2014.07.09 19:03, "Hotfix - Episode Charlie: Scotty must die"). First off, let me just say that all of the above is what I was hoping for with this thread. If I may, a few questions to this. Could you explain C a bit for me? I don't follow and I would like to know how 4 man squads would allow for easier matchmaking.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 493	Posted - 2014.12.14 23:52:00 - [7] - Quote I see. That's pretty interesting. The above is assuming that the numbers are available in the first place. You have 4 common run game modes (Bush, Skirm, Dom, FW) that split numbers. Then you have 3 servers that further split players. Hence often times you won't have enough squads regardless. This is evidenced when you log onto a game and see 2 squads of 6 and 1 squad of 4 all from corps (or the same corp -- not including FW qsyncing) and complete randoms on the other side. Why is one of those squads not on the other side? This implies that MU factors your character's individual combat rating and averages the squad's combat rating. Hence you have a squad of 6 all with MU of say 9001 and 6 random solos each with a MU of say 9100. Those 6 randoms are considered to have the upper hand. However, as we all know, the squad of 6 will stomp the 6 solo players (usually, this is not absolute just on average.) This is furthered evidenced by the fact that it happens that way! o.O If I get stuck out against 1 of those guys I have a hard fight, but when I stay in group I don't. One can check your mu rating and see the effects on scotty by joining a pub solo. See what kind of opponents you are up against. Try making a new character and finishing the academy slowly. As in purposely doing bad in academy. Don't afk as you have to go earn WP but take a dive and lose gunfights more often than not. When you finally got out of the academy and are pitted against regular players you will find that the quality of competition is quite low. So theoretically I could see how if the above postulated 2 squads of 6 and 1 group of 4 were instead 4 squads of 4 players. Then it would be 2 on 2 with randoms to fill evenly. However, depending on how Mu works, if the randoms are individually higher in Mu then the squads will get lumped together. I would need a dev to confirm Mu's affects relative to this. Outside of the above. Do you think we need that for Pubs? Or just FW?
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 500	Posted - 2014.12.18 05:07:00 - [8] - Quote Let me be clear Void. The above suggestion is for NON pubs ONLY. It wouldn't work in Amb, Dom, or Skirm. PC and Factional only. For exactly the reason you just said.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 500	Posted - 2014.12.18 05:58:00 - [9] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: I suspect that Ambush matchmaking/competition would benefit substantially from reduced squad size. And to a lesser degree Dom and Skirm; I'd pay good money to never have to wait out a redline match again. Fair enough, and noted. I can't say I agree but its certainly reasonable and possible that would be the effect. The only reason I am against smaller squad size is because we had smaller squad size and it sucked far more. Of course I do not know how matchmaking has evolved since.