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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2259
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Posted - 2015.03.04 14:36:00 -
[31] - Quote
Quote:
Please tell me why any of this can't be done in dust?
Because the PS3 didn't work for them as a platform. Two problems. Firstly the very obvious issue of hardware limitations. Legion runs the same engine as Dust. They've spent so much time customizing UE3 that it makes more sense for them to keep using it than switching to UE4 and recreating their customization. Compare the legion vid to the dust vid. Look at how smoothly it runs while looking far, far better. Look at how poorly dust runs. Granted, this has improved in the last year, but they're still having to remove content from the game because the PS3 just doesn't have the ability to use it without having performance issues. The PS3 simply isn't capable of executing the gameplay that they want to create.
The second problem is the really big one, which comes down to project management limitations. CCP uses an agile methodology, where you release early and often (even if that release is just to a test server). This is particularly helpful when you're creating something entirely new and huge that your customers are already using, because you can get updates to users much faster then get feedback about the updates and use that to inform you for the next update. It speeds things up tremendously. On the PC platform they control their own servers and can release updates every day if they want. On the PS3 if they make any kind of server side change development basically stops for two weeks while PSN decides whether or not the update is approved. This also means that they can't give us a test server where we can log in and find all the nasty, unexpected issues introduced with an update. On PC you just create a copy of your client, change a setting and it logs into the test server instead. These things severely slow down the development cycle. This is probably the biggest factor in why we got a year worth of bug fixing and failed balancing attempts after release. No test server for players to find how changes can be abused, and when problems are found it can take a long while before they get fixed because you have to wait for Sony to approve any changes before your fix can be tried in a real environment. Then you find out your fix doesn't quite do the trick and you have to go through the whole hassle all over again. In an environment where you control the server it goes more like:
1) Deploy fix. Didn't work exactly as you wanted.
2) Alter something and deploy again.
3) Is it how you want it to be? No? Repeat step 2 until you're satisfied.
You simply can't do this on a console. It just isn't an option. Choosing to go with a console was ambitious, and from a market perspective it was the way to go. There's far more money to be made there. But from a technical perspective it was the wrong place to start. They should have created a game that matches their vision on PC first with console limitations in mind and then, once it was feature complete, push it out to a console. I'm hoping this is what will happen with Legion.
They *could* still create some links between Dust and the new sov mechanics, but they'd have to create a lot of new content and server side changes to support it and the project management limitations imposed by the console platform are just not a good match for that. And in the end it still wouldn't be the game that they actually wanted to make. I'm expecting Dust to continue on as an eve themed shooter that is very lightly connected to Eve, while Legion will become the one that is heavily linked.
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steadyhand amarr
shadows of 514
3618
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Posted - 2015.03.04 15:25:00 -
[32] - Quote
Agree with everything but the making it for ps3 was smart.
It was not smart at time and history proved many people right and badly damaged CCP's reputation. It was massively stuiped ego driven decision we all questioned right off the bat in weekend testing.
You should have seen the uproar the laser focused comments caused at the time nobody including many in ccp though sticking with the ps3 was a good idea, but management failures caused those voices to be ignored.
Lucky ccp have corrected those mistakes and I don't think anyone who made those stuiped calls is with ccp anymore. I even think some old hands at EvE got pushed out too...
As an example even Sony beta tested their big shooter first in PC before pushing to consoles years later =ƒÿå=ƒÿå=ƒÿå=ƒÿå (joke)
You can never have to many chaples
-Templar True adamance
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Greiv Rabbah
M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command
Lokun Listamenn
143
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Posted - 2015.03.05 02:45:00 -
[33] - Quote
I wrote:Please tell me why any of this can't be done in dust? Kristoff Atruin wrote:stuff I can tell you know a bit, but this makes my head hurt. The biggest issue they had in early development wasn't the limitations of the ps3, it was the limitations of certain aspects of the ps3 architecture relative to the development experience of the team.
In other words, we essentially had a team of PC programmers developing for a vastly different platform. One that was designed to be difficult and expensive to learn(sony has some incredibly stupid reasons for choosing to do this)
But before Iget too deep into that, iI need to point out that the legion tease didn't run on the same engine as dust. It didnt run on any engine. It wasnt connected to any server. It wasnt a game at all. It was a small prototype that would barely run. It was made from the dust framework jury rigged to barely be capable of running on the pc they demoed it on. It was extremely limited, and theudea that it was so brilliant is absurd. Legion would be a disaster if they continue it. How much source code written for a CELL BE do you really think will run on an x86/64 platform? To have something as simplistic as what they showed(which would be single player of course) on PC that runs reliably would take quite a bit of development work, and thats just what was shown in the legion teaser, and not any of the things that dust already has. Besides which, you understand most of the glitches and lag we experience have to do with synchronizing 32 players over psn across tranquility through the battle clusters while still exchanging data between tq and the battle clusters? In other words, the only real improvement from leaving the ps3 is cutting psn out of the equation, which would help some but is already where a lot of their optimization efforts have gone. The tqGåÆbattle clusters part, where the most optimization appears to be needed, is what would be carried over, bringing all the problems dust has with it. Again with the exception that dust is written for a 10 core proprietary system and most of the source wouldn't carry over. So before we progress beyond dust were looking at a massive undertaking to ( not even port but) mostly rewrite dust as a PC game. As you can see by playing, they've been getting better and better at programming for ps3, so a move to PC now that their getting going in the right direction seems silly. It would have merit if what you were saying about server side changes (like the tqGåÆbattle cluster optimizations that dust needs in order to fix the lag) having to go through Sony were true, but they're patently false. A server side change involves changing something with tq, rebooting tq, and giving it a few days to see how the hotfix went. When they do implement server side changes, Sony doesn't even know about it. This is why rattati was only able to achieve these at first. Dust wasn't making money, the draconian greenlight process Sony forces on their third party developers is not only tedious but costly(you have to pay Sony to let you put a patch out... Assuming they say its OK to do so) whereas tq is ccps brainchild, their property, and it doesn't cost anything to deploy a change to tranquility and see how it goes. Also, CCP favors a "games as a service, not a product" ideology, and that's why with both dust and eve and (soonGäó) valk they will continue to patch, tweak, tweak, patch, tweak, tweak, expansion, tweak, tweak, tweak, tweak, patch, tweak, tweak, patch, etc. The idea that moving dust to PC will change this is laughable because they're still doing it with eve of course they'd do it with legion! The difference is that console players lack the patience, attention span, and long term vision for something like dust to work out. Console gamers are too ADD: its gotta be everything they expect sooner than they've been told quick because otherwise they're moving on to the next game/system yesterday. Honestly aside from inexperience with console development, the worst thing about dust 514 is the player base and the eve players tried to warn CCP that console gamers are idiots that won't be capable of hangingbtight for a 10-year game and you know what? In a lot of ways they were right.
That said, the dev team HAS made strides with ps3 development, the back end optimization to fix the lag issues that got introduced to dust when tranquility became part of the equation CAN be fixed mostly server side(which again is the free fixes, not the ones that Sony controls as you said) there IS plenty of room for the game to grow without tapping the limitations of the ps3, AND the player base has been getting sold the idea of a long-term evolving game, thanks to rattati. After many disappointments(on both sides) the dust 514 player base is learning to have patience and see improvements come one at a time instead of "these things all needed fixed or added so overnight we redid the game and now here's everything". When I put it like that, nobody will say they had that kind of expectation, but when you talk to the players in game you see that that's sort of the mentality, and you also can see that that's changing. The dust plauerbase is evolving and growing, just as the dust dev team is, and to throw that all away now while dust is beginning to take flight and has so much more room to grow into being the planetary companion to eve that we all dreamed of... Well, that would be idiotic. That would be a massive waste of my money(and other peoples money too) and would be the rouge wedding all over again EXCEPT that the dust player base will almost unanimously say " they betrayed us. We gave them a second chance, we began to believe in them and they betrayed us again. We were tricked I to spending money again on a fools errand. Never again. Fool me twice CCP... Never again" and they... That is WE... Would be right. And legion would never make it off the ground. nobody would fall for it again
Sebiestor scout, MTAC pilot, Merc w/ a face
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2260
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Posted - 2015.03.05 15:06:00 -
[34] - Quote
Yeah, I know a bit. I've been a professional developer for 10 years now.
"It didnt run on any engine"
And this is where I can tell you don't know a bit, and I'm not reading the rest of that blob of text until you learn to use paragraphs. An engine is just a platform for a game to run on which basically handles the graphics. It has nothing to do with servers, or finished game design. You can go download a copy of the unreal engine right now, load up a map and run around in it. Bam, you're in an engine with no servers and no game. If it didn't run on an engine, it didn't run at all and the video we saw of CCP devs playing around in Legion was actually a mass delusion, caused by hallucinogens in the water supply. When Legion was announced we thought that maybe they would put it on UE4, but they outright told us it was the same version of UE3 that Dust runs on, which they went to GDC to present their customizations for long before Dust was in beta. They didn't create the customizations *for* the PS3 platform. They would have made those before the PS3 platform was even chosen on a PC and then ported the code over for the PS3 version of the engine.
The architecture difference was a hurdle no doubt, but it wasn't why we got a year worth of slow development. Every time a patch went off for approval development stopped for what seemed like two weeks. If you release once a month that means 50% of your manpower is wasted on an external dependency. There might be some small tasks that devs can work on in the meantime, but it is nowhere near the level of productivity. I've seen it personally time and time again. The whole release strategy depended on being able to update the game frequently, which is something the platform chosen did not allow for.
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G Clone
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
24
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Posted - 2015.03.05 17:28:00 -
[35] - Quote
Hynox Xitio wrote:Legion not appearing at Fanfest is obviously troubling. Why would CCP Shanghai not present their top priority game at CCP's biggest public event of the year by far? Logically we can only draw several conclusions, the correct one being known probably only to CCP (and possibly the CPM but not a guarantee.)
Allow me to help you understand:
Every last few years leading up, and at, EVE FanFest, CCP has gotten increasingly more eager and excited about DUST514 (and later Legion), and every year the result has been worse than the last...
So, with there being absolutely nothing pre-announced about DUST or Legion, with no events for DUST or Legion, and with CCP Games being absolutely quiet about DUST and Legion, I predict that the DUST community will have the best-ever EVE FanFest, courtesy of CCP keeping shut! |
DaReaperPW
Net 7
79
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Posted - 2015.03.05 19:41:00 -
[36] - Quote
G Clone wrote:Hynox Xitio wrote:Legion not appearing at Fanfest is obviously troubling. Why would CCP Shanghai not present their top priority game at CCP's biggest public event of the year by far? Logically we can only draw several conclusions, the correct one being known probably only to CCP (and possibly the CPM but not a guarantee.) Allow me to help you understand: Every last few years leading up, and at, EVE FanFest, CCP has gotten increasingly more eager and excited about DUST514 (and later Legion), and every year the result has been worse than the last... So, with there being absolutely nothing pre-announced about DUST or Legion, with no events for DUST or Legion, and with CCP Games being absolutely quiet about DUST and Legion, I predict that the DUST community will have the best-ever EVE FanFest, courtesy of CCP keeping shut!
Pretty much.
I was watching the live stream, and before that i remember seeing the hype when the ccp trademarking of EVE legion went public. People were excited for what it could be, and for dust on pc, no ps4, no pc. Lots of debates were happening. The devs even built up more and more hype.
During the stream when they announced Dust on pc the room exploded with cheers. Twitch chat exploded with 'FINALLY!" and then.. 25 or so min into the hour long keynote, it was done. And that was the issue. Then came the back lash.
No news is good in this aspect. CCP messed up huge last year. If they had taken that last 20 min or so of the keynote and given dust players an idea as to what was coming for them, besides legion, legion would of been greenlite by now. The reaction to it on pc, via the stream, was BIGGER then that of valk.
At this point, i don;t think its dead, i think them not talking is good. I think Valkryie will have a TON of stuff and momentum. And i think CCP wants to wait and get the valkryie show over then start talking more. |
DaReaperPW
Net 7
79
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 19:44:00 -
[37] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:Quote:
Please tell me why any of this can't be done in dust?
Because the PS3 didn't work for them as a platform. Two problems. Firstly the very obvious issue of hardware limitations. Legion runs the same engine as Dust. They've spent so much time customizing UE3 that it makes more sense for them to keep using it than switching to UE4 and recreating their customization. Compare the legion vid to the dust vid. Look at how smoothly it runs while looking far, far better. Look at how poorly dust runs. Granted, this has improved in the last year, but they're still having to remove content from the game because the PS3 just doesn't have the ability to use it without having performance issues. The PS3 simply isn't capable of executing the gameplay that they want to create. The second problem is the really big one, which comes down to project management limitations. CCP uses an agile methodology, where you release early and often (even if that release is just to a test server). This is particularly helpful when you're creating something entirely new and huge that your customers are already using, because you can get updates to users much faster then get feedback about the updates and use that to inform you for the next update. It speeds things up tremendously. On the PC platform they control their own servers and can release updates every day if they want. On the PS3 if they make any kind of server side change development basically stops for two weeks while PSN decides whether or not the update is approved. This also means that they can't give us a test server where we can log in and find all the nasty, unexpected issues introduced with an update. On PC you just create a copy of your client, change a setting and it logs into the test server instead. These things severely slow down the development cycle. This is probably the biggest factor in why we got a year worth of bug fixing and failed balancing attempts after release. No test server for players to find how changes can be abused, and when problems are found it can take a long while before they get fixed because you have to wait for Sony to approve any changes before your fix can be tried in a real environment. Then you find out your fix doesn't quite do the trick and you have to go through the whole hassle all over again. In an environment where you control the server it goes more like: 1) Deploy fix. Didn't work exactly as you wanted. 2) Alter something and deploy again. 3) Is it how you want it to be? No? Repeat step 2 until you're satisfied. You simply can't do this on a console. It just isn't an option. Choosing to go with a console was ambitious, and from a market perspective it was the way to go. There's far more money to be made there. But from a technical perspective it was the wrong place to start. They should have created a game that matches their vision on PC first with console limitations in mind and then, once it was feature complete, push it out to a console. I'm hoping this is what will happen with Legion. They *could* still create some links between Dust and the new sov mechanics, but they'd have to create a lot of new content and server side changes to support it and the project management limitations imposed by the console platform are just not a good match for that. And in the end it still wouldn't be the game that they actually wanted to make. I'm expecting Dust to continue on as an eve themed shooter that is very lightly connected to Eve, while Legion will become the one that is heavily linked.
This, though the only mild advantage to working in stuff for the ps3 is that in theory all ps3's are the same, so one bug on 1 ps3 should be on all. And one fix shoudl fix them all.
But i think that the approval process for patches really did hinder dust. And i think dust could greatly be improved with a shorter cycle. Which is why legion being on pc and on tq would make its development better just that they then control it. with out a middle man |
Jathniel
Ahrendee Inc.
Negative-Feedback
1490
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Posted - 2015.03.06 07:08:00 -
[38] - Quote
This again?
Thought there was no intention to mention Legion NOR Dust at Fanfest.
Greiv Rabbah wrote:[quote=DAMIOS82] . . .forget about legion and join the push to see dust become the game we were all promised.
A game that was promised to have 10 years of content... on a platform that in a year or so will no longer be manufactured... with a steady, yet dwindling playerbase?
Forget about what again?
Dust is merely going to run as token extra income until it's no longer profitable.
So you better get realistic, and forget about 'the game we were all promised'. (because that's what Legion was supposed to be.)
Retired
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Greiv Rabbah
M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command
Lokun Listamenn
156
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Posted - 2015.03.06 12:56:00 -
[39] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:Yeah, I know a bit. I've been a professional developer for 10 years now.
"It didnt run on any engine"
And this is where I can tell you don't know a bit, and I'm not reading the rest of that blob of text until you learn to use paragraphs. An engine is just a platform for a game to run on which basically handles the graphics. It has nothing to do with servers, or finished game design. You can go download a copy of the unreal engine right now, load up a map and run around in it. Bam, you're in an engine with no servers and no game. If it didn't run on an engine, it didn't run at all and the video we saw of CCP devs playing around in Legion was actually a mass delusion, caused by hallucinogens in the water supply. When Legion was announced we thought that maybe they would put it on UE4, but they outright told us it was the same version of UE3 that Dust runs on, which they went to GDC to present their customizations for long before Dust was in beta. They didn't create the customizations *for* the PS3 platform. They would have made those before the PS3 platform was even chosen on a PC and then ported the code over for the PS3 version of the engine.
The architecture difference was a hurdle no doubt, but it wasn't why we got a year worth of slow development. Every time a patch went off for approval development stopped for what seemed like two weeks. If you release once a month that means 50% of your manpower is wasted on an external dependency. There might be some small tasks that devs can work on in the meantime, but it is nowhere near the normal level of productivity. I've seen it personally time and time again. The whole release strategy depended on being able to update the game frequently, which is something the platform chosen did not allow for.
Cant use paragraphs when I run out of available characters and if you've been programming for 10 years I know a bit more than you son.
Which is why I ran out of space while trying to educate your smart ass.
Don't try and tell me what an engine is. I build them.
Ue3 is an engine in the strictest sense, yes, but go ahead and get the udk.
Its stripped down, its nothing like dust, all of the components that CCP developed, which are a large part of the actual custom engine that dust uses are outright missing as they were in the legion teaser. You've got a few art assets stolen from dust, some stripped down middleware, and the promise to sell us the dream that was dust 514.
"Was a hurdle no doubt" lololol either you've never coded for ps3 or you're trolling. I'm done. Go away.
Sebiestor scout, MTAC pilot, Merc w/ a face
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Greiv Rabbah
M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command
Lokun Listamenn
156
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Posted - 2015.03.06 13:14:00 -
[40] - Quote
DaReaperPW wrote:This, though the only mild advantage to working in stuff for the ps3 is that in theory all ps3's are the same, so one bug on 1 ps3 should be on all. And one fix shoudl fix them all.
But i think that the approval process for patches really did hinder dust. And i think dust could greatly be improved with a shorter cycle. Which is why legion being on pc and on tq would make its development better just that they then control it. with out a middle man
Oh look, an intelligent post.
Yes greater revision control is an advantage of bringing legion to fruition. At this point in time its the only one.
The dev team is getting better at ps3 coding and the ps3 is nowhere near its hardware limitations.
The issue dust once had is that given the dev teams training with and understanding of the ps3 as a development platform, they had reached the limit of what they were able to accomplish.
Remember, they were coming from computer development backgrounds, and the ps3 is a whole nother gnarly bucktoothed beast.
They had to learn ps3 development better before making a 10-year ps3 game; they have a much better chance at that as they are now, but they will need to continue to learn and grow as they dive deeper into the systems architecture or the game will flounder.
The game also won't have a chance if its players keep up their console gamer mentality.
Dust 514 was never a good fit for a crowd that has the attention span of a fruit fly.
Like the guy above who can't read a little text but thinks he's going to tell a programmer of 18 years what an engine is.
The game still has a lot of potential if and only if the player base doesn't fly off to the next big thing the instant they see something shiny. Sadly, that's console gamers for ya.
And buying a PC for a prototype of a potential PC port that's so far off in the future any PC you bought now wouldn't run it by the time it was a reasonably playable beta doesn't make one a PC gamer.
It makes them a stereotypical consoles gamer that just wasted a chunk of money.
Sebiestor scout, MTAC pilot, Merc w/ a face
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