DUST Search - Scan Range Effectively Halved

IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote:

One Eyed King wrote:

Ripley Riley wrote:

Ares 514 wrote:

They reduced the range amp from 45% to 15% (or 25%? someone correct me if i'm wrong). Anyways, they had to make them have little effect to stop the short range circle from going nuts on scouts/logi's (with tons of low slots). Personally i think they should have made the short circle range static and left range amps how they were (they are currently under used).

Edit: found it : * Range Amplifiers now add 5%/10%/15% range per tier.

I just saw that note, adjusting my previous math.

10m * 1.5 = 15m

15m * 1.15 from proto range amp = 17.25m

So they lost, what, 2.75m this patch?
Don't they still get the best scan precision and scan profiles?
Aren't they the only dropsuit with bonuses to EWAR?
Don't they get a huge bonus to fit a cloaking device, a module that further reduces their scan profile?
Yeah? Alright then.

Cal Scouts just lost their role.

In 1.10, a Logi will be able to run near the same fit (while having module fitting bonses) and get to 55m when maxed, compared to Cal scouts which will get 58m, down from 70 that they can get now.

Balance should concede that all suits have some role that they are superior enough in that no other suits should be able to steal that role.

Recently, scouts have been able to out assault assaults in some cases, which isn't right. Instead of making the scouts less like assaults, they have chosen to make assaults and logis more like scouts.

The fixes just don't make sense. I don't see why scouts who are dedicated to the role should be punished because things were broken in 1.8 and FotM slayers decided to use our stuff and crap all over our role, then simply purchase a respec in 1.10 and play whatever they want, leaving the dedicated scouts to sort through the mess they left behind.

fukin ay my brother.

I am crossing my fingers my Minja won't be unplayable.

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Clone D Grundstein Automation 984	Posted - 2014.12.07 18:42:00 - [31] - Quote Duke Noobiam wrote: Scouts who want to rule ewar will have to use precision enhancers now instead of stacking shield extenders. This is aligned with the goal of making scouts play as actual scouts rather than assault suits. Agreed, I have played an ewar scout fitting without shield/armor tanking for a long while. I use all of my slots for ewar and the problem is that precision has always been much weaker than dampening. Now that range has been halved at the 40db precision level, we will see 25% of the information (pi*R^2) that was once available at the 40db level which nerfs ewar to a nearly unusable amount, especially for scout vs scout ewar. ISK Trader channel: blitz
DrewEon T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 31	Posted - 2014.12.07 18:52:00 - [32] - Quote I really think that this update sucks. I understand that this will be helpful for anyone who doesn't run scouts, so they're less likely to be seen and killed. But for those of us scout who aren't total jerks that have 600hp, like me, this update sucks. The only proto suit I have is a scout ck.0. I run 349 shield and 74 armor with combat/rail rifles. The only way I survive is by my ability to see enemies on the minimap. That is my ONLY defense. And a cloak. Thanks ccp. You suck. I mean rock. You suck
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 5385	Posted - 2014.12.07 19:15:00 - [33] - Quote A scout may have to fit one range amp and precision enhancer to have omnipotent passive EWAR scans?! Wha-NO! The scout-gods will have nothing of this nonsense! Sorry, not sorry. My advice to you, playa...
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6413	Posted - 2014.12.07 19:20:00 - [34] - Quote Duke Noobiam wrote: Scouts who want to rule ewar will have to use precision enhancers now instead of stacking shield extenders. This is aligned with the goal of making scouts play as actual scouts rather than assault suits. Scouts have had too many advantages of late and this is another good step towards balancing them. I think that if they were to simply have shifted bonuses towards efficacy based, like it was much discussed long before "circles," it would have gone a long way towards minimizing assault scouts while not creating role bleed. @ Bethhy I look at Dust development as taking a significant change with Rattati, and while I am aware of and have experienced many of the other issues you brought up, I am trying to have faith that the current development process is much less scattered. I do share your fears though. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1012	Posted - 2014.12.07 19:22:00 - [35] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: A scout may have to fit one range amp and precision enhancer to have omnipotent passive EWAR scans?! Wha-NO! The scout-gods will have nothing of this nonsense! Sorry, not sorry. It's kind of funny you think someone will be fitting range amps come 1.10. They're going to be useless.... all my fits with them will be deleted. Overlord of Broman
Clone D Grundstein Automation 984	Posted - 2014.12.07 19:27:00 - [36] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: A scout may have to fit one range amp and precision enhancer to have omnipotent passive EWAR scans?! Wha-NO! The scout-gods will have nothing of this nonsense! Sorry, not sorry. Always such a sarcastic commenter who apparently doesn't do calculations. It takes a full complement of complex precision enhancers to get any remotely useful information out of TACNET. It takes nearly a full complement of range amps to detect scouts at a useful distance, since many slayer scouts are kincat tanked and running viziam or carthums which have a much greater range than TACNET anyway. Due to network communication time, quick scouts can travel deep into your TACNET radius before the radar screen updates on your client, often times too late. 10 or 15 meter range is nowhere near enough of a warning for incoming slayers. ISK Trader channel: blitz
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6413	Posted - 2014.12.07 19:27:00 - [37] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: A scout may have to fit one range amp and precision enhancer to have omnipotent passive EWAR scans?! Wha-NO! The scout-gods will have nothing of this nonsense! Sorry, not sorry. The "omnipotent" EWAR scans are a matter of increasing the power of scans in the inner circle, not something specifically to do with scouts. Also, this was done so mediums can now not be snuck up on. Again, the fix seems to be to make everyone more like scouts, which isn't a good fix at all IMO. Particularly when other things were already looked into. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 5385	Posted - 2014.12.07 19:31:00 - [38] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: It's kind of funny you think someone will be fitting range amps come 1.10. They're going to be useless... all my fits with them will be deleted. The second scan range ring on scouts is 10m. (10 * 1.5) from the skill = 15m (15 * 1.45) proto range amp = 21.75m Scouts will have to fit one module to return to their pre-EWAR balance levels of badassery. One module spent on their actual role, one less module spent on brick tanking. I am so ***** excited for 1.10. Seriously, this change alone makes 1.10 worth my time. Plus bandwidth keeping logi role tourists off my battlefield. Me right now: Clone D wrote: Always such a sarcastic commenter who apparently doesn't do calculations. Requires calculations of me. Doesn't provide any of his own to back up these statements... Clone D wrote:** It takes a full complement of complex precision enhancers to get any remotely useful information out of TACNET. It takes nearly a full complement of range amps to detect scouts at a useful distance. Oh Clone D, your troll threads never fail to disappoint me. They are work of the finest quality. My advice to you, playa...
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1012	Posted - 2014.12.07 19:34:00 - [39] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Ares 514 wrote: It's kind of funny you think someone will be fitting range amps come 1.10. They're going to be useless... all my fits with them will be deleted. The second scan range ring on scouts is 10m. (10 * 1.5) from the skill = 15m (15 * 1.45) proto range amp = 21.75m Scouts will have to fit one module to return to their pre-EWAR balance levels of badassery. One module spent on their actual role, one less module spent on brick tanking. I am so ******* excited for 1.10. Seriously, this change alone makes 1.10 worth my time. Plus bandwidth keeping logi role tourists off my battlefield. Me right now: They reduced the range amp from 45% to 15% (or 25%? someone correct me if i'm wrong). Anyways, they had to make them have little effect to stop the short range circle from going nuts on scouts/logi's (with tons of low slots). Personally i think they should have made the short circle range static and left range amps how they were (they are currently under used). Edit: found it : * Range Amplifiers now add 5%/10%/15% range per tier. Overlord of Broman
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 5385	Posted - 2014.12.07 19:38:00 - [40] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: They reduced the range amp from 45% to 15% (or 25%? someone correct me if i'm wrong). Anyways, they had to make them have little effect to stop the short range circle from going nuts on scouts/logi's (with tons of low slots). Personally i think they should have made the short circle range static and left range amps how they were (they are currently under used). Edit: found it : * Range Amplifiers now add 5%/10%/15% range per tier. I just saw that note, adjusting my previous math. 10m * 1.5 - 15m 15m * 1.15 from proto range amp = 17.25m So they lost, what, 2.75m this patch? Don't they still get the best scan precision and scan profiles? Aren't they the only dropsuit with bonuses to EWAR? Yeah? Alright then. My advice to you, playa...

Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1012	Posted - 2014.12.07 19:43:00 - [41] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Ares 514 wrote: They reduced the range amp from 45% to 15% (or 25%? someone correct me if i'm wrong). Anyways, they had to make them have little effect to stop the short range circle from going nuts on scouts/logi's (with tons of low slots). Personally i think they should have made the short circle range static and left range amps how they were (they are currently under used). Edit: found it : * Range Amplifiers now add 5%/10%/15% range per tier. I just saw that note, adjusting my previous math. 10m * 1.5 = 15m 15m * 1.15 from proto range amp = 17.25m So they lost, what, 2.75m this patch? Don't they still get the best scan precision and scan profiles? Aren't they the only dropsuit with bonuses to EWAR? Don't they get a huge bonus to fit a cloaking device, a module that further reduces their scan profile? Yeah? Alright then. Range Amplifiers are no longer worth using IMO, which is sad. Overlord of Broman
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 5385	Posted - 2014.12.07 19:47:00 - [42] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: Range Amplifiers are no longer worth using IMO, which is sad. For scouts, using a single range amp gets you close to pre-1.10 scan ranges. If that doesn't appeal to you, then don't fit them. Not sure what to tell you. I'll be running one or two on my Amarr scout. Count on it. I will need to experiment with both fittings to see which works best for me. My advice to you, playa...
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2661	Posted - 2014.12.07 19:49:00 - [43] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Ares 514 wrote: They reduced the range amp from 45% to 15% (or 25%? someone correct me if i'm wrong). Anyways, they had to make them have little effect to stop the short range circle from going nuts on scouts/logi's (with tons of low slots). Personally i think they should have made the short circle range static and left range amps how they were (they are currently under used). Edit: found it : * Range Amplifiers now add 5%/10%/15% range per tier. I just saw that note, adjusting my previous math. 10m * 1.5 = 15m 15m * 1.15 from proto range amp = 17.25m So they lost, what, 2.75m this patch? Don't they still get the best scan precision and scan profiles? Aren't they the only dropsuit with bonuses to EWAR? Don't they get a huge bonus to fit a cloaking device, a module that further reduces their scan profile? Yeah? Alright then. The Cal scout (you know, the one that gets the 50% range bonus?) barely beats the Logi on scan range. From my spread sheet (base/x1/x2/x3) (this is also the 50%, unpenalized scan range): Cal: \| Logi: 22.5 \| 18.75 25.8 \| 21.56 29.2 \| 24.37 (n/a) \| 26.18 Even with the 50% range bonus (1.5m SP, btw), the Cal scout only wins by 4m at every level. Precision isn't a distinction since neither can reliably get down to dampened scout dB, except in their closest range in which the numbers are similar. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6414	Posted - 2014.12.07 19:53:00 - [44] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Ares 514 wrote: They reduced the range amp from 45% to 15% (or 25%? someone correct me if i'm wrong). Anyways, they had to make them have little effect to stop the short range circle from going nuts on scouts/logi's (with tons of low slots). Personally i think they should have made the short circle range static and left range amps how they were (they are currently under used). Edit: found it : * Range Amplifiers now add 5%/10%/15% range per tier. I just saw that note, adjusting my previous math. 10m * 1.5 = 15m 15m * 1.15 from proto range amp = 17.25m So they lost, what, 2.75m this patch? Don't they still get the best scan precision and scan profiles? Aren't they the only dropsuit with bonuses to EWAR? Don't they get a huge bonus to fit a cloaking device, a module that further reduces their scan profile? Yeah? Alright then. Cal Scouts just lost their role. In 1.10, a Logi will be able to run near the same fit (while having module fitting bonses) and get to 55m when maxed, compared to Cal scouts which will get 58m, down from 70 that they can get now. Balance should concede that all suits have some role that they are superior enough in that no other suits should be able to steal that role. Recently, scouts have been able to out assault assaults in some cases, which isn't right. Instead of making the scouts less like assaults, they have chosen to make assaults and logis more like scouts. The fixes just don't make sense. I don't see why scouts who are dedicated to the role should be punished because things were broken in 1.8 and FotM slayers decided to use our stuff and crap all over our role, then simply purchase a respec in 1.10 and play whatever they want, leaving the dedicated scouts to sort through the mess they left behind. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
IAmDuncanIdaho II R 0 N 1 N 1030	Posted - 2014.12.07 20:14:00 - [45] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: Ares 514 wrote: They reduced the range amp from 45% to 15% (or 25%? someone correct me if i'm wrong). Anyways, they had to make them have little effect to stop the short range circle from going nuts on scouts/logi's (with tons of low slots). Personally i think they should have made the short circle range static and left range amps how they were (they are currently under used). Edit: found it : * Range Amplifiers now add 5%/10%/15% range per tier. I just saw that note, adjusting my previous math. 10m * 1.5 = 15m 15m * 1.15 from proto range amp = 17.25m So they lost, what, 2.75m this patch? Don't they still get the best scan precision and scan profiles? Aren't they the only dropsuit with bonuses to EWAR? Don't they get a huge bonus to fit a cloaking device, a module that further reduces their scan profile? Yeah? Alright then. Cal Scouts just lost their role. In 1.10, a Logi will be able to run near the same fit (while having module fitting bonses) and get to 55m when maxed, compared to Cal scouts which will get 58m, down from 70 that they can get now. Balance should concede that all suits have some role that they are superior enough in that no other suits should be able to steal that role. Recently, scouts have been able to out assault assaults in some cases, which isn't right. Instead of making the scouts less like assaults, they have chosen to make assaults and logis more like scouts. The fixes just don't make sense. I don't see why scouts who are dedicated to the role should be punished because things were broken in 1.8 and FotM slayers decided to use our stuff and crap all over our role, then simply purchase a respec in 1.10 and play whatever they want, leaving the dedicated scouts to sort through the mess they left behind. fukin ay my brother. I am crossing my fingers my Minja won't be unplayable. You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all. ~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz
Vell0cet Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 2648	Posted - 2014.12.07 20:23:00 - [46] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Ares 514 wrote: Range Amplifiers are no longer worth using IMO, which is sad. For scouts, using a single range amp gets you close to pre-1.10 scan ranges. If that doesn't appeal to you, then don't fit them. Not sure what to tell you. I'll be running one or two on my Amarr scout. Count on it. I will need to experiment with both fittings to see which works best for me. I have concerns about this too. I have "scout hunter" Amarr scout fits designed to counter cloaky shotgun scouts. It's actually a pretty massive nerf to that role. These changes actually help tanky shotgunners. If you're not spotting them until they're ontop of you, you're already dead. Best PvE idea ever!
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 1148	Posted - 2014.12.07 20:29:00 - [47] - Quote What ya' all aren't figuring into the equation is the fact that an overwhelming majority of the logis in this game -won't- be fitting mass e-war mods. With the implementation of BW, equipment using logis won't be sacrificing their slots for ewar because now they need to fit that suit to actually be survivable so they can be combat effective while maintaining their deployed equipment. Sure, you might see folks running one or two range amps, but that suit is going to be paper thin because of it. Because unlike the Cal Scout, logis can't hide from other scans nearly as well or even at all, fitting a cloak on a logi is a huge waste of fitting, and they sure as hell can't tank by abusing hit detection nearly as well either. Not to mention their precision sucks as well; the only thing these suits are gonna pick up are mediums and heavys, scouts will continue to require other scouts and focused scanners to see. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6417	Posted - 2014.12.07 20:33:00 - [48] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: Ares 514 wrote: They reduced the range amp from 45% to 15% (or 25%? someone correct me if i'm wrong). Anyways, they had to make them have little effect to stop the short range circle from going nuts on scouts/logi's (with tons of low slots). Personally i think they should have made the short circle range static and left range amps how they were (they are currently under used). Edit: found it : * Range Amplifiers now add 5%/10%/15% range per tier. I just saw that note, adjusting my previous math. 10m * 1.5 = 15m 15m * 1.15 from proto range amp = 17.25m So they lost, what, 2.75m this patch? Don't they still get the best scan precision and scan profiles? Aren't they the only dropsuit with bonuses to EWAR? Don't they get a huge bonus to fit a cloaking device, a module that further reduces their scan profile? Yeah? Alright then. Cal Scouts just lost their role. In 1.10, a Logi will be able to run near the same fit (while having module fitting bonses) and get to 55m when maxed, compared to Cal scouts which will get 58m, down from 70 that they can get now. Balance should concede that all suits have some role that they are superior enough in that no other suits should be able to steal that role. Recently, scouts have been able to out assault assaults in some cases, which isn't right. Instead of making the scouts less like assaults, they have chosen to make assaults and logis more like scouts. The fixes just don't make sense. I don't see why scouts who are dedicated to the role should be punished because things were broken in 1.8 and FotM slayers decided to use our stuff and crap all over our role, then simply purchase a respec in 1.10 and play whatever they want, leaving the dedicated scouts to sort through the mess they left behind. fukin ay my brother. I am crossing my fingers my Minja won't be unplayable. Me too... I have a feeling knifing is going to go from hard to practically impossible. I think we will unfortunately be reduced to novelties again, and with the damage increase to knives to make them better for everyone, Gal might be better options. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Clone D Grundstein Automation 986	Posted - 2014.12.07 20:33:00 - [49] - Quote Daddrobit wrote: ... the only thing these suits are gonna pick up are mediums and heavys, scouts will continue to require other scouts and focused scanners to see. That's the big problem. Scout vs scout. A precision tanked scout will now have 25% of the area coverage (at the modified 40db level) that they once had. This is bad for shotty hunters, but good for scout slayers. ISK Trader channel: blitz
Fizzer XCIV Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback 1311	Posted - 2014.12.07 20:39:00 - [50] - Quote Good. I'm glad scouts are losing their monopoly on Ewar. Please, make my Opus pretty...

One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6419	Posted - 2014.12.07 20:46:00 - [51] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Good. I'm glad scouts are losing their monopoly on Ewar. That is like giving scouts heavy weapons to take away Sentinels monopoly on the HMG. EWAR is what made scouts scouts. What reason will there to run them now? Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Fizzer XCIV Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback 1312	Posted - 2014.12.07 20:51:00 - [52] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Good. I'm glad scouts are losing their monopoly on Ewar. That is like giving scouts heavy weapons to take away Sentinels monopoly on the HMG. EWAR is what made scouts scouts. What reason will there to run them now? There is a difference between being the best at something... and being the only class able to effectively do something, and be by far the best, without even fitting your suit do do that thing. Scouts will still have the best overall Ewar, but Ewar won't be practically exclusive to them anymore. Please, make my Opus pretty...
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 5387	Posted - 2014.12.07 21:16:00 - [53] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Good. I'm glad scouts are losing their monopoly on Ewar. That is like giving scouts heavy weapons to take away Sentinels monopoly on the HMG. EWAR is what made scouts scouts. What reason will there to run them now? The best walk/strafe and sprint speeds and stamina regeneration in the game? The only dropsuits with ewar command bonuses and bonuses to fitting cloaks. Innate hacking speed bonuses. Two equipment slots in case you don't want to use a cloak. My advice to you, playa...
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1014	Posted - 2014.12.08 17:11:00 - [54] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Ares 514 wrote: Range Amplifiers are no longer worth using IMO, which is sad. For scouts, using a single range amp gets you close to pre-1.10 scan ranges. If that doesn't appeal to you, then don't fit them. Not sure what to tell you. I'll be running one or two on my Amarr scout. Count on it. I will need to experiment with both fittings to see which works best for me. The problem is the extra 2.75m (or whatever it is) is not worth the CPU/PG/slot of the complex range amplifier. Debate about what specific numbers scouts/other suits should have all you want. The problem in my mind is they have destroyed the range amplifier's usability in any practical way when it was already rarely used relative to other modules (i.e. hp stacking). Overlord of Broman
Clone D Grundstein Automation 1035	Posted - 2014.12.10 13:01:00 - [55] - Quote Scout Vs Scout EWAR is no longer useful for survival. Just use your eyes now. ISK Trader channel: blitz
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 651	Posted - 2014.12.10 13:45:00 - [56] - Quote Change is inevitable, we must adapt and over come, I have always assumed scouts should be damped while logistics should scan. It spices things up, well to a new day Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.


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