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Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1056	Posted - 2014.12.04 22:16:00 - [1] - Quote Quote: * Range Amplifiers now add 5%/10%/15% range per tier. This change is terrible. Quite frankly, this change makes Range Amplifier modules utterly worthless. Here are some numbers. Range Amplifier modules Percentages for the modules including the stacking penalties Level/First/Second/Third STD: 5%/4.3%/2.8% ADV: 10%/8.6%/5.6% PRO: 15%/12.9%/8.4m 10m Base Range Close Range: 4m Range Amp 5: 6m 1/2/3 STD Mods: 6.3m/6.57m/6.75m 1/2/3 ADV Mods: 6.6m/7.17m/7.57m 1/2/3 PRO Mods: 6.9m/7.79m/8.44m CalSct 5/2 PRO: 11.69m Medium Range: 10m Range Amp 5: 15m 1/2/3 STD Mods: 15.75m/16.43m/16.89m 1/2/3 ADV Mods: 16.5m/17.92m/18.92m 1/2/3 PRO Mods: 17.25m/19.48m/21.12m CalSct 5/2 PRO: 29.22m Far Range: 20m Range Amp 5: 30m 1/2/3 STD Mods: 31.5m/32.85m/32.77m 1/2/3 ADV Mods: 33m/35.84m/37.84m 1/2/3 PRO Mods: 34.5m/38.95m/42.22m CalSct 5/2 PRO: 58.425 12.5 Base Range Close Range: 5m Range Amp 5: 7.5m 1/2/3 STD Mods: 7.88m/8.21m/8.62m 1/2/3 ADV Mods: 8.25m/8.96m/9.46m 1/2/3 PRO Mods: 8.63m/9.74m/10.56m Medium Range: 12.5m Range Amp 5: 18.75m 1/2/3 STD Mods: 19.69m/20.53m/21.11m 1/2/3 ADV Mods: 20.63m/22.39m/23.65m 1/2/3 PRO Mods: 21.56m/24.34m/26.39m Far Range: 25m Range Amp 5: 37.5m 1/2/3 STD Mods: 39.38m/41.07m/42.22m 1/2/3 ADV Mods: 41.25m/44.8m/47.31m 1/2/3 PRO Mods: 43.13m/48.69m/52.78m 3 PRO Mods: Logi: 10.56m/26.39m/52.78m A/C/S: 8.44m/21.12m/42.22m Sent: 6.33m/15.83m/31.67m (honestly, don't bother after 1.10) Essentially, Range Amplifiers are worthless with the incoming changes. Three STD modules gives less than 5m, even on the long range suit (Logi) - how is that worth the slot investment? Even 3 PRO modules give a measly 15.3m increase on the far range, how is this worth 99 CPU and three module slots? I understand how the current numbers (25/35/45%) would make passive scanning incredibly potent (Logi Close range could reach 18.88m; Far range would reach 94.42m), but the 5/10/15 we're getting in 1.10 are just awful. There are two notions that come to mind: 1) Alter the percentages to be more useful but less than 1.9 figures: likely something like 20/25/30; or 2) Change the modules to provide a straight range addition: so a STD module would give +2m Close/+5m Medium/+8m Far, for example. Range Amplifiers do not provide enough of a range boost for anyone but Logis (who get some half-decent benefit) and CalScouts (who are a shadow of their former EWar self come 1.10.) The coming numbers will just remove an option from the game and make EWar less interesting. With the Far range having a precision penalty, we will be looking at up to six slots spent on EWar to get reasonable results at anything longer than short ranges - which is far too high an expectation to assume and definitely not help make the EWar game more interesting. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2287	Posted - 2014.12.04 22:33:00 - [2] - Quote Remember this, they'll only be worthless until Hotfix Echo or 1.1 where ranges will be tweaked using data from 1.10 Dust514/Legion should be a(n): [_] Arcade Lobby Shooter [X] Sci-fi Military Sim
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 988	Posted - 2014.12.04 22:37:00 - [3] - Quote Thinking Rattati chose the least bad option. imagine if Heavy+Blobs had 12dB scans at 20-40 meters. ^ That'd be a pretty good reason to not play Dust.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1059	Posted - 2014.12.04 22:40:00 - [4] - Quote I understand that Sentinels shouldn't have the best scans, certainly and I realise the Hotfixes are plenty fast. This is more of a, "Hey guys, you've messed up this module's raison d'+¬tre" and to get others seeing the number so that we can work out the right middle ground. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1067	Posted - 2014.12.07 07:20:00 - [5] - Quote I think people should be paying attention to the ruining of range amplifiers. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1733	Posted - 2014.12.07 09:47:00 - [6] - Quote Kallas, they're buffing most suits base scan ranges to 20m now, so the change of range amps doesn't hurt as much as you think. Read all of the patch notes before jumping to conclusions. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Varoth Drac Titans of Phoenix 452	Posted - 2014.12.07 10:19:00 - [7] - Quote Very true Mina. Range amps are still being nerfed too much however, at least in my opinion. I don't see anyone using them in 1.10. I agree with why they needed nerfing. With the 1.10 EWAR numbers being as they are, the short range scans would have been far too powerful with original range amps. Precision mods aren't needed for short scans as the base precision is so strong. I have my own ideas for tweaking the numbers, though I agree we should wait and see how 1.10 EWAR pans out. For my ideas, the community needs to decide whether, in principle, it would be acceptable for a logi with 3 precision mods and 3 range amps, to have around 13db scans at around 15m.
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 286	Posted - 2014.12.07 11:27:00 - [8] - Quote Range amps don't help against people with light weapons that can shoot effectively up to 100m. The amount of times someone from 80 maybe 90 m has bang bang banged my scout with a rail rifle or other weapon is ridiculous because they simply are not in line of sight or within passive scan range. it only really helps against heavies, who you have to track as a scout to ensure they dont see and rinse you. now that heavies will be getting a scan buff, novaknifing and shotgunning will be much harder. Consequently, heavies will be used more often than before (already ridiculous amounts) because they have huge dps, ridiculous HP and little drawbacks against multiple opponents. The new FOTM minmatar heavy with kincats will just be an easy spam fast hmg scout murderer. infact murdering everything that comes its way. 1.10 will be HEAVY 514 (part 2: Revenge of the heavies) "If there is a strafe nerf in this game, remove hit detection"- manboar 2014
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 872	Posted - 2014.12.07 13:08:00 - [9] - Quote Scan range used to be very problematic because it was comparatively easy to stack up a bonus of >200% between suit, skill and module bonuses. It is very difficult to balance around that, so I agree with the general notion to flatten range bonuses. On the other hand maybe there's a point to be made that modules took a very hard nerf while the base skill bonus (10%/lvl) was unaffected - which put additional weight on passive eWar stats rather than specialized eWar fittings. But I will reserve judgment until we've seen the modules in action. If I were to queue up a suggestion for the post-1.10-discussion I'd say raise range amps to ~15/20/25 and put the range amplification skill bonus at 5%/lvl. That way we'll end up with very similar ranges if you fit for range, but less eWar if you don't.
Varoth Drac Titans of Phoenix 453	Posted - 2014.12.07 15:10:00 - [10] - Quote Range amps aren't used much at the moment at a 45% bonus. I say keep them at 45% but add a range penalty to precision mods. Or a precision penalty to range mods. The problem is the combination of the two.

Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1033	Posted - 2014.12.07 15:59:00 - [11] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Range amps aren't used much at the moment at a 45% bonus. I say keep them at 45% but add a range penalty to precision mods. Or a precision penalty to range mods. The problem is the combination of the two. Here's what Logi Scan range would look like at 45% ... Range Extender (x1) - 11m / 27m / 54m Range Extender (x2) - 15m / 38m / 76m Range Extender (x3) - 19m / 48m / 95m Range Extender (x4) - 21m / 54m / 107m Another idea was to Range Amps to Highs.
Varoth Drac Titans of Phoenix 454	Posted - 2014.12.07 17:44:00 - [12] - Quote Range amps to highs might be good. Stops the deadly combination of range and precision. For my numbers I was looking at a 10-15% range penalty for precision mods. Short range scans need to be 65% precision not 50%, this would actually require the use of more than one precision mod to scan scouts at short range. I was looking at a 3 precision 3 range amp logi as an example. Min scouts would need the 15% profile bonus as well.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1070	Posted - 2014.12.07 19:24:00 - [13] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Kallas, they're buffing most suits base scan ranges to 20m now, so the change of range amps doesn't hurt as much as you think. Read all of the patch notes before jumping to conclusions. Assaults will now have 20m before skills Logi's 25m before skills Commando 20m before skills Sentinel 15m before skills Scout 20m before skills. Thank you for the denigration Maybe you didn't pay enough attention to my numbers where I am using the new base ranges, not the old. Thing is, that extra range is only useful with the addition of even more modules (Precision Enhancers) otherwise the 'buff' is nothing of the sort. Now, easy to access long range scans are a bad idea,but provided that the range is tied mostly into the modules you can guarantee that long rage scanners have low EHP. With the new Amp numbers there's almost no point fitting them at all, meaning, as Stefan mentioned, that running without modules and relying on the passive bonuses is more efficient. Quite simply, the sacrifice required to get a good range using modules is too high. MINA Longstrike wrote: For most others this is a buff. Frankly, not it's not. Well, in the strictest definition it is a buff, but the point is that the changes will not improve EWar with the numbers we have: extra range is meaningless when you can't actually scan anything. Varoth Drac wrote: I agree with why they needed nerfing. With the 1.10 EWAR numbers being as they are, the short range scans would have been far too powerful with original range amps. Precision mods aren't needed for short scans as the base precision is so strong. I could definitely see an argument made for the short range precision being less effective, by with the current range numbers you're looking at point blank/extreme close range, at which point scans are almost pointless. But yeah, if the precision was raised (such that it wasn't an auto-scan necessarily) but the range was raised also, I'd get behind that. Varoth Drac wrote: For my ideas, the community needs to decide whether, in principle, it would be acceptable for a logi with 3 precision mods and 3 range amps, to have around 13db scans at around 15m. With the current 1.10 numbers? Yeah, seems perfectly fine: that means they've fitted 3 Precision Enhancers and 2 Range Amps (using 1.9 numbers.) 5 modules for a 15m scan? Yeah, seems reasonable since 15m gives you barely any time to react to a shotgun scout in any case; the 38m 24db and 75m 35db scans are also reasonable for a 5 module sacrifice - that's 5/8 for Min/Gal, 5/7 for Am and 5/9 for Cal (because the layouts are busted at the moment.) Would you not agree that for more than half of a suits slots dedicated to EWar they should be pretty damn effective? Now,I could definitely see a drop in the Range Amplification skill bonus to make the focus more on module usage, but the 1.10 Amp numbers are simply terrible. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2656	Posted - 2014.12.07 19:37:00 - [14] - Quote Switch the ranges between the Scout and Logi and I'll be fine. The way things are set now, the Cal scout bonus is virtually worthless. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
Varoth Drac Titans of Phoenix 457	Posted - 2014.12.07 19:50:00 - [15] - Quote It has to be the 6 module investment, at least 3 range amps, because that it the point at which stacking penalties make further investment unproductive. Don't forget scans are shared with the squad, a logi will often be surrounded by heavies, tries to avoid direct combat and will still have the use of thier equipment slots - their greatest strength. I'm talking about buffing the max range of 1.10 short range scans, at the expense of the need to fit more precision mods to beat highly damped scouts.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1072	Posted - 2014.12.07 19:54:00 - [16] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: I'm talking about buffing the max range of 1.10 short range scans, at the expense of the need to fit more precision mods to beat highly damped scouts. Then I concur Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1097	Posted - 2014.12.11 01:01:00 - [17] - Quote Bump. I think more people should talk about scan ranges Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3068	Posted - 2014.12.11 04:36:00 - [18] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: I agree, though I'm thinking Rattati chose the least bad option. Imagine if Heavy+Logi Blobs had 12dB scans at 20-40 meters. That'd be a pretty good reason to not play Dust. Instead, they get 21 dB scans for 200 meters! "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5711	Posted - 2014.12.11 11:04:00 - [19] - Quote Why not just change amps to provide a flat bonus? 5m at STD 10 at ADV 15 at PRO. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Varoth Drac Titans of Phoenix 480	Posted - 2014.12.11 12:27:00 - [20] - Quote Four things to do to fix this: 1) Put them back to 45%, or a flat bonus, don't mind as long as it is worthwhile. They were barely used before the changes. 2) Make them high slot modules. This stops people from getting ridiculous passive scans by maxing precision in highs and range in lows. It also would be nice to have more high slot options (code breakers in highs too kthx). 3) Change the inner ring scan precision to something that actually requires precision mods. Like say, 65% precision. 4) Give Minmatar scouts the same profile reduction bonus as Gallente and Caldari scouts. You just can't balance this stuff if some are better at dampening than others.



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