DUST Search - Next step after APEX Dropsuits: Dropsuit Tiericide.

Auris Lionesse wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

Mobius Wyvern wrote:

I believe the APEX Dropsuits have shown that removing STD and ADV tier suits - and having the skill effect only the bonus applied to a single suit that you unlock with level 1 of the appropriate skill - would go a long way toward addressing the underlying balance issues in Dust.

Part of the idea here would be to apply some form of simple bonus to Basic Frame suits to make them a viable option while maintaining them as more Generalist, as Tech-1 ships are in EVE. What remains an important issue is that even though the Basic Frames are now cheaper, the lack of skill-affected bonus still makes them naturally inferior to Specialist suits, and basically just a stepping stone to get to those.

The Basic Frame skill level would also give a bonus to Specialist suits, meaning that someone that gets both skills to Level 5 will still have an advantage, but it won't be as extreme as it is now.

I say this as someone who regularly runs Assault ak.0 with 3x Complex Damage Mods and a Viziam Scrambler Rifle.

As long as these suits aren't such fashion crimes I can live with it.

Also how and why are you running 3x damage mods on the Viziam. 1 or even 2 are more than enough.

agreed
apex suits were a disaster and a disgrace to new eden.
someone left their toddler alone with the armor painter in shanghai.

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Mobius Wyvern Sky-FIRE 5487	Posted - 2014.12.04 14:43:00 - [1] - Quote I believe the APEX Dropsuits have shown that removing STD and ADV tier suits - and having the skill effect only the bonus applied to a single suit that you unlock with level 1 of the appropriate skill - would go a long way toward addressing the underlying balance issues in Dust. Part of the idea here would be to apply some form of simple bonus to Basic Frame suits to make them a viable option while maintaining them as more Generalist, as Tech-1 ships are in EVE. What remains an important issue is that even though the Basic Frames are now cheaper, the lack of skill-affected bonus still makes them naturally inferior to Specialist suits, and basically just a stepping stone to get to those. The Basic Frame skill level would also give a bonus to Specialist suits, meaning that someone that gets both skills to Level 5 will still have an advantage, but it won't be as extreme as it is now. I say this as someone who regularly runs Assault ak.0 with 3x Complex Damage Mods and a Viziam Scrambler Rifle. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Cat Merc Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 13531	Posted - 2014.12.04 14:45:00 - [2] - Quote That's only one step of many needed before we reach tiercide, but +1 Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 244	Posted - 2014.12.04 19:47:00 - [3] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: I believe the APEX Dropsuits have shown that removing STD and ADV tier suits - and having the skill effect only the bonus applied to a single suit that you unlock with level 1 of the appropriate skill - would go a long way toward addressing the underlying balance issues in Dust. Part of the idea here would be to apply some form of simple bonus to Basic Frame suits to make them a viable option while maintaining them as more Generalist, as Tech-1 ships are in EVE. What remains an important issue is that even though the Basic Frames are now cheaper, the lack of skill-affected bonus still makes them naturally inferior to Specialist suits, and basically just a stepping stone to get to those. The Basic Frame skill level would also give a bonus to Specialist suits, meaning that someone that gets both skills to Level 5 will still have an advantage, but it won't be as extreme as it is now. I say this as someone who regularly runs Assault ak.0 with 3x Complex Damage Mods and a Viziam Scrambler Rifle. I feel exactly the same. I would really love to have 3 bonuses that get shuffled around: FRAME - affects non-role specific frames RACIAL - affects both non-role specific and specialized frames of a given race ROLE - affects the specialized frames. Example: Gallente Sentinel would get FRAME BONUS - for being a heavy suit, Heavy Weapon Optimization RACIAL BONUS - for being Gallente Heavy suit, 5% Armor Rep efficacy bonus ROLE BONUS - splash Damage resistance versus the Gallente Heavy Frame would get: FRAME BONUS - for being a heavy suit, Heavy Weapon Optimization RACIAL BONUS - for being Gallente Heavy suit, 5% Armor Rep Efficacy bonus ROLE BONUS - NONE, no specialization. versus Gallente Scout would get: FRAME BONUS - for being a light frame, Precision Module Efficacy Bonus RACIAL BONUS - for being a Gallente Light suit, Dampener Module Efficacy bonus ROLE BONUS - Cloaking Module Optimization All these are JUST examples for argument's sake.
Isa Lucifer Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 117	Posted - 2014.12.04 19:52:00 - [4] - Quote Like the idea as well. Amarr Victor
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15459	Posted - 2014.12.04 19:55:00 - [5] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: I believe the APEX Dropsuits have shown that removing STD and ADV tier suits - and having the skill effect only the bonus applied to a single suit that you unlock with level 1 of the appropriate skill - would go a long way toward addressing the underlying balance issues in Dust. Part of the idea here would be to apply some form of simple bonus to Basic Frame suits to make them a viable option while maintaining them as more Generalist, as Tech-1 ships are in EVE. What remains an important issue is that even though the Basic Frames are now cheaper, the lack of skill-affected bonus still makes them naturally inferior to Specialist suits, and basically just a stepping stone to get to those. The Basic Frame skill level would also give a bonus to Specialist suits, meaning that someone that gets both skills to Level 5 will still have an advantage, but it won't be as extreme as it is now. I say this as someone who regularly runs Assault ak.0 with 3x Complex Damage Mods and a Viziam Scrambler Rifle. As long as these suits aren't such fashion crimes I can live with it. Also how and why are you running 3x damage mods on the Viziam. 1 or even 2 are more than enough. *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3824	Posted - 2014.12.04 21:25:00 - [6] - Quote Now the problem Marketing is going to have with this is that without tiers, its harder to sell AUR Dropsuits and Gear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Kierkegaard Soren THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 568	Posted - 2014.12.04 21:37:00 - [7] - Quote Sp boosters and custom skins have always been the real money spinners, and not the efficacy of the suit itself. The APEX are in part a proof of the latter. Dedicated Commando. "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." -Paul Atreides.
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1294	Posted - 2014.12.04 22:44:00 - [8] - Quote ive literally been saying this for more than a year. eveification/eve parity is what we need. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1294	Posted - 2014.12.04 22:50:00 - [9] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: I believe the APEX Dropsuits have shown that removing STD and ADV tier suits - and having the skill effect only the bonus applied to a single suit that you unlock with level 1 of the appropriate skill - would go a long way toward addressing the underlying balance issues in Dust. Part of the idea here would be to apply some form of simple bonus to Basic Frame suits to make them a viable option while maintaining them as more Generalist, as Tech-1 ships are in EVE. What remains an important issue is that even though the Basic Frames are now cheaper, the lack of skill-affected bonus still makes them naturally inferior to Specialist suits, and basically just a stepping stone to get to those. The Basic Frame skill level would also give a bonus to Specialist suits, meaning that someone that gets both skills to Level 5 will still have an advantage, but it won't be as extreme as it is now. I say this as someone who regularly runs Assault ak.0 with 3x Complex Damage Mods and a Viziam Scrambler Rifle. As long as these suits aren't such fashion crimes I can live with it. Also how and why are you running 3x damage mods on the Viziam. 1 or even 2 are more than enough. agreed apex suits were a disaster and a disgrace to new eden. someone left their toddler alone with the armor painter in shanghai. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 904	Posted - 2014.12.06 23:03:00 - [10] - Quote Am I understanding this correctly? 1) Delete STD from the game 2) Replace STD with ADV 3) Rename STD to Tech 1. 4) Keep STD gear price. 5) Rename Proto to Tech 2. If so , +1. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate

ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 3313	Posted - 2014.12.07 02:12:00 - [11] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Am I understanding this correctly? 1) Delete STD from the game 2) Replace STD with ADV 3) Rename STD to Tech 1. 4) Keep STD gear price. 5) Rename Proto to Tech 2. If so , +1. Wouldn't it be... remove all STD and ADV from the game and rename the basic frames as Tech I and leave the role bonus frames as Tech II? Possibly dropping a slot or two from the basic frame to balance price vs power. I'm not sure it makes sense to have a Tech I version of each specialist dropsuit type, as that really isn't how the progression was meant to be in the first place.
Mobius Wyvern Sky-FIRE 5499	Posted - 2014.12.08 11:10:00 - [12] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Am I understanding this correctly? 1) Delete STD from the game 2) Replace STD with ADV 3) Rename STD to Tech 1. 4) Keep STD gear price. 5) Rename Proto to Tech 2. If so , +1. Wouldn't it be... remove all STD and ADV from the game and rename the basic frames as Tech I and leave the role bonus frames as Tech II? Possibly dropping a slot or two from the basic frame to balance price vs power. I'm not sure it makes sense to have a Tech I version of each specialist dropsuit type, as that really isn't how the progression was meant to be in the first place. Yeah, you've got the right idea ZDub. Also, liking the Trello card here and in the OP. https://trello.com/c/xl1dqb6c/54-tiericide Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
The True Inferno Myrmidon Syndicate 116	Posted - 2014.12.08 11:19:00 - [13] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: True Adamance wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: I believe the APEX Dropsuits have shown that removing STD and ADV tier suits - and having the skill effect only the bonus applied to a single suit that you unlock with level 1 of the appropriate skill - would go a long way toward addressing the underlying balance issues in Dust. Part of the idea here would be to apply some form of simple bonus to Basic Frame suits to make them a viable option while maintaining them as more Generalist, as Tech-1 ships are in EVE. What remains an important issue is that even though the Basic Frames are now cheaper, the lack of skill-affected bonus still makes them naturally inferior to Specialist suits, and basically just a stepping stone to get to those. The Basic Frame skill level would also give a bonus to Specialist suits, meaning that someone that gets both skills to Level 5 will still have an advantage, but it won't be as extreme as it is now. I say this as someone who regularly runs Assault ak.0 with 3x Complex Damage Mods and a Viziam Scrambler Rifle. As long as these suits aren't such fashion crimes I can live with it. Also how and why are you running 3x damage mods on the Viziam. 1 or even 2 are more than enough. agreed apex suits were a disaster and a disgrace to new eden. someone left their toddler alone with the armor painter in shanghai. CCP art director removes crayon from month ScP = GÖÑ If you like chiptune An Ace Pilot
Foehammerr Dead Man's Game RUST415 137	Posted - 2014.12.15 01:01:00 - [14] - Quote As far as pricing is concerned, specialist suits should be priced at advanced to still keep them accessible and tech 1 in between basic and ADV. This way both tiers remain cost effective while not devaluing tech 2 or keeping them price lock to the elite. *Rangers Lead The Way!* Beta Vet since 2/5/2013
Mobius Wyvern Sky-FIRE 5524	Posted - 2014.12.15 13:03:00 - [15] - Quote Foehammerr wrote: As far as pricing is concerned, specialist suits should be priced at advanced to still keep them accessible and tech 1 in between basic and ADV. This way both tiers remain cost effective while not devaluing tech 2 or keeping them price lock to the elite. Yeah, price changes would obviously be necessary to prevent the game from becoming painful. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3384	Posted - 2014.12.15 13:05:00 - [16] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183529&find=unread EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Mobius Wyvern Sky-FIRE 5524	Posted - 2014.12.15 13:07:00 - [17] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183529&find=unread I saw your thread, but as you pointed out you're looking at a first step toward Tiericide. I'm keeping this one going in the hopes that once CCP does what you propose they might see their way to move all the way. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3384	Posted - 2014.12.15 15:19:00 - [18] - Quote I think the idea above is a fix to the tiers, the step after would be to make basic frames a useful variant (with good bonuses), tiericide would then be complete. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5418	Posted - 2014.12.15 18:12:00 - [19] - Quote Dropsuit Tiericide: - Make all suits Proto suits. - Set the PG/CPU so that with Engineering 0 and Electronics 0 you can only fill all slots by fitting Standard tier modules. - Set Engineering and Electronics skill bonus so that with both at 5 you can fit the Proto suits as you can fit Proto suits now without skilling into Engineering and Electronics. - Add Advanced Engineering and Advanced Electronics skill to get PG/CPU to where they are now when fitting a Proto suit with Engineering and Electronics maxed. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Mobius Wyvern Sky-FIRE 5526	Posted - 2014.12.16 01:23:00 - [20] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: I think the idea above is a fix to the tiers, the step after would be to make basic frames a useful variant (with good bonuses), tiericide would then be complete. Well the issue is that you would still have suits that are effectively just stepping stones to the better ones. The fitting ability you lose in exchange for trying to use lower-tier suits to be more cost effective still wouldn't be worth it. We want to completely eliminate all forms of power creep from the game. Using a stacking bonus system and having a single suit that unlocks at level 1 of the skill puts everyone on an equal playing field as far as suits, and thus reduces the performance gap that currently exists, making the game more fun and balanced for everyone. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7384	Posted - 2014.12.16 03:24:00 - [21] - Quote True Adamance wrote: As long as these suits aren't such fashion crimes I can live with it. Also how and why are you running 3x damage mods on the Viziam. 1 or even 2 are more than enough. There's no kill like overkill. Seriously. When in doubt, overdo it. AV
Greiv Rabbah M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command Lokun Listamenn 92	Posted - 2015.02.27 09:53:00 - [22] - Quote Why does this tech 1 and tech 2 business keep being touted as tiericide? You really believe that? Its still tiers, its just the tiers that YOU want, and what YOU want them to be called. This isn't tiericide, its tieriphilia Sebiestor scout, MTAC pilot, Merc w/ a face
Shaun Iwairo Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 2	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:55:00 - [23] - Quote A little off topic but I think this is still relevant to the conversation regarding the imbalance between standard gear and proto gear, and how maybe trying to make items in Dust scale like they do in Eve can't really work. There are two big difference between Eve and Dust regarding what amount of isk you're putting on the line in any given fight. 1. In Eve you generally have the choice to engage an enemy fleet or not. If you're running around in cheap T1 frigs (imagine basic light frames) and come up against a Caracal gang (imagine protos), you're going to gtfo to find a more appropriate target. In Dust you do not have this choice. 2. In Eve fights are generally considered 'won' if you win the isk war, that is your fleet destroys more isk than it loses. I've experienced fights where we went up against fairly expensive T2 and Faction ships in our own cheap smaller ships. We would die and keep reshipping but eventually we won. The final KDR was against us about 5:1, but we won the isk war so we were happy considering that fight won. These two points highlight why the Eve model of better stuff costs more isk is a false choice in Dust - you have to fight the other guys and no-one even sees how much it cost you to win that pub so you may as well go all out. This is why I support a complete tiericide in Dust, lets just try to make 5 or 6 different suits for each race so people can concentrate on skilling into playstyle rather than power.


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