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Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5069	Posted - 2014.11.17 11:03:00 - [1] - Quote After having finally perused the patch notes of 1.8 and done the math I would like to request the following changes be cosidered: Either a reversion of the rifle damage nerfs in 1.8. Not to include the changes to damage mods. OR Reduction of the HMG'S overall DPS by the average of the amount of DPS lost by the rifles. Nerfing the rifle damage output at the same time as boosting Sentinel EHP seems to be something that warrants another look. If TTK of the rifles was dropped to account for the TTK of assault suits and logis I would recommend the reduction of the HMG, standard version only. The assault is still ineffective and the burst carries monstrous drawbacks to accompany monstrous DPS. But the rifle nerf in 1.8 pretty much explains the long and short of why sentinel and scout spam became a thing. At least in my eyes as a long term sentinel player. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3349	Posted - 2014.11.17 11:15:00 - [2] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: After having finally perused the patch notes of 1.8 and done the math I would like to request the following changes be cosidered: Either a reversion of the rifle damage nerfs in 1.8. Not to include the changes to damage mods. OR Reduction of the HMG'S overall DPS by the average of the amount of DPS lost by the rifles. Nerfing the rifle damage output at the same time as boosting Sentinel EHP seems to be something that warrants another look. If TTK of the rifles was dropped to account for the TTK of assault suits and logis I would recommend the reduction of the HMG, standard version only. The assault is still ineffective and the burst carries monstrous drawbacks to accompany monstrous DPS. But the rifle nerf in 1.8 pretty much explains the long and short of why sentinel and scout spam became a thing. At least in my eyes as a long term sentinel player. The sentinel suit is > than assault suit in efficiency. The hmg is > than assault weapons in efficiency. Answering the question of why will give us how to fix them both, or how to buff assaults and assault weapons. In my,opinion it boils down to, the heavy can outperform any suit at cqc, and there are not enough penalties for the use of the suit or their hmg. Its easy to kill any suit with a basic heavy set up [due to imbalanced efficiencies], but I could only dream of killing a basic heavy with basic weaponry without having the grenade spam or use an RE. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5070	Posted - 2014.11.17 12:15:00 - [3] - Quote Still have to take the range into account. Since heavies cannot perform at midrange vs. Infantry with any level of efficiency whatsoever that must remain a factor of consideration. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 296	Posted - 2014.11.17 12:59:00 - [4] - Quote Alternative Idea: Invert explosive/splash resistance, such that grenades and mass drivers deal more damage to Sentinels than other classes. Thoughts?
shaman oga The Dunwich Horror 3206	Posted - 2014.11.17 13:06:00 - [5] - Quote Resistances and HP are too much, it should be one or another.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 4855	Posted - 2014.11.17 13:40:00 - [6] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Reduction of the HMG'S overall DPS by the average of the amount of DPS lost by the rifles I'm in favor of this. Removing the rifle nerfs is taking a step backwards in terms of balancing progress. The HMG needs its damage capability reduced somehow. Breakin, what are your thoughts on having the HMG's RoF accelerate? It begins at 50% current RoF, then tops out at 100% RoF after X seconds. This might reduce the insta-blapping that happens when assaults dare to peep around a corner then get vaporized. My advice to you, playa...
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5076	Posted - 2014.11.17 15:56:00 - [7] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Reduction of the HMG'S overall DPS by the average of the amount of DPS lost by the rifles I'm in favor of this. Removing the rifle nerfs is taking a step backwards in terms of balancing progress. The HMG needs its damage capability reduced somehow. Breakin, what are your thoughts on having the HMG's RoF accelerate? It begins at 50% current RoF, then tops out at 100% RoF after X seconds. This might reduce the insta-blapping that happens when assaults dare to peep around a corner then get vaporized. requires coding new behavior into the weapon rather than simply tweaking. I'm thinking if it can be tweaked so much the better. Because I'm of the opinion that if we're going to code new behavior let's just get the HMG out of CQC entirely. It's the most historically pain in the ass of a weapon that we've had as far as balance. Better to rebalance it for range where you can apply things like turn speed penalties or something to the weapons to be powerful at long range and still powerful in close, but much harder to employ. Rather like a modern machinegun. It's a long range weapon that is very difficult to employ in CQC. You can DO IT. It's just not the smartest choice you can make. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Ku Shala The Generals 1016	Posted - 2014.11.17 17:28:00 - [8] - Quote add spool time to standard hmg and assault variants *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (Caldari Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist *Assault -Logistics-Sentinal-Scout-Commando Allround CK-0
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5080	Posted - 2014.11.17 17:45:00 - [9] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: add spool time to standard hmg and assault variants again, requires coding new behavior and won't solve the problem Spool time is the idiot ball of solutions. A .25-.5 second fire delay is not going to change the outcome of a 1v1 and will only serve to make being an idiot in a scout suit more forgiving. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
VikingKong iBUN T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 212	Posted - 2014.11.17 18:05:00 - [10] - Quote I honestly hope they get nerf'd to crap again and only a few dedicated heavy players continue to use them. Dust was 10x more fun with only a few heavies around, now it just makes me rage. The best way to win is too get a brainless logi to follow you and walk around pretty much invincible, spamming a minigun that shreds people in half a second and takes zero skill or concentration to use. Good game.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5081	Posted - 2014.11.17 18:20:00 - [11] - Quote VikingKong iBUN wrote: I shreds people in half a second and takes zero skill or concentration to use. Good game. this statement is only true if you have a logi with a leash on you. You should see Kane facepalming trying to keep my idiotically aggressive ass alive. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4864	Posted - 2014.11.17 18:51:00 - [12] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: After having finally perused the patch notes of 1.8 and done the math I would like to request the following changes be cosidered: Either a reversion of the rifle damage nerfs in 1.8. Not to include the changes to damage mods. OR Reduction of the HMG'S overall DPS by the average of the amount of DPS lost by the rifles. Nerfing the rifle damage output at the same time as boosting Sentinel EHP seems to be something that warrants another look. If TTK of the rifles was dropped to account for the TTK of assault suits and logis I would recommend the reduction of the HMG, standard version only. The assault is still ineffective and the burst carries monstrous drawbacks to accompany monstrous DPS. But the rifle nerf in 1.8 pretty much explains the long and short of why sentinel and scout spam became a thing. At least in my eyes as a long term sentinel player. This is a solid point. I had forgotten about the fact that HMG was not nerfed when every other automatic weapon was nerfed. I would be ok with this small damage nerf. I also fully agree that this should only apply to the Standard HMG, for the reasons stated. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4864	Posted - 2014.11.17 18:57:00 - [13] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Alternative Idea: Invert explosive/splash resistance, such that grenades and mass drivers deal more damage to Sentinels than other classes. Thoughts? An absolute and unequivocal NO! to that suggestion! Having the slowest movement speed means Sentinels have the hardest time of any class getting away from Mass Drivers, Remote Explosives, and Grenades. I still find Mass Drivers and Remote Explosives to be a problem on my Sentinel, even with the resistance to splash. (I think standard grenades were nerfed at some point, so only Proto Grenades seem to be an issue.) Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
matsumoto yuichi san The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance 83	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:13:00 - [14] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Still have to take the range into account. Since heavies cannot perform at midrange vs. Infantry with any level of efficiency whatsoever that must remain a factor of consideration. while not untrue one must also consider the map design strongly promotes engagements at the 20 - 30m range or 70+ m range, but the objectives are almost always inside in a room, or have enough cover around them the hmg doesn't have any issues at all, as the ONLY way to engage the hmg user is in their optimal. just saying it's as much the maps as anything, same with the whole roof-top issue.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4864	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:20:00 - [15] - Quote VikingKong iBUN wrote: I honestly hope they get nerf'd to crap again and only a few dedicated heavy players continue to use them. Dust was 10x more fun with only a few heavies around, now it just makes me rage. The best way to win is too get a brainless logi to follow you and walk around pretty much invincible, spamming a minigun that shreds people in half a second and takes zero skill or concentration to use. Good game. As a dedicated Sentinel I obviously disagree with you on your GÇ£nerf to crapGÇ¥ statement, but I do agree that ideally Sentinels would be one of the least common suits on the battlefield. I support carful and well thought out nerfs that donGÇÖt make HMG GÇ£crapGÇ¥ but make it harder to use so people stop thinking of it as easy mode. I think the heat buildup nerfs will help with that. I also think that any GÇ£nerf to damageGÇ¥ would help, even if it is very small, because so many players donGÇÖt bother looking at the numbers and would only see GÇ£nerf to damageGÇ¥. Combined with the Heat changes this might encourage the easy mode chasers to move onto another fit. I think the Assault suits should be the easiest suits to play. HMG Sentinel needs to be a bit more complicated as you donGÇÖt want the easy fit to also be one of the most powerful fits. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4864	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:23:00 - [16] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: VikingKong iBUN wrote: I shreds people in half a second and takes zero skill or concentration to use. Good game. this statement is only true if you have a logi with a leash on you. You should see Kane facepalming trying to keep my idiotically aggressive ass alive. This made me smile. I have caused so many logi to cures a blue streak. Although I have encountered a few logi who could keep up with me, it is not common. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4864	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:28:00 - [17] - Quote matsumoto yuichi san wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Still have to take the range into account. Since heavies cannot perform at midrange vs. Infantry with any level of efficiency whatsoever that must remain a factor of consideration. while not untrue one must also consider the map design strongly promotes engagements at the 20 - 30m range or 70+ m range, but the objectives are almost always inside in a room, or have enough cover around them the hmg doesn't have any issues at all, as the ONLY way to engage the hmg user is in their optimal. just saying it's as much the maps as anything, same with the whole roof-top issue. HMG might get a lot less bad press if Gallente Research facility Domination was changed from using Skirmish A terminal to using Skirmish B terminal. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4621	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:39:00 - [18] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: This is a solid point. I had forgotten about the fact that HMG was not nerfed when every other automatic weapon was nerfed. I would be ok with this small damage nerf. I also fully agree that this should only apply to the Standard HMG, for the reasons stated. LMAO! And not in a bad way. Fox..i wish i could just...squeeze you. sigh Been here trying to help people see that having it's DPS on the standard variant be so much better than the best CQC rifles is flawed... Glad people are finally starting to agree. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19152	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:42:00 - [19] - Quote What do you think of the proficiency change from 1.8? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4639	Posted - 2014.11.18 00:50:00 - [20] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: What do you think of the proficiency change from 1.8? stupid. Should have been flat damage. We just encouraged dual tanking more. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought

Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1307	Posted - 2014.11.18 01:05:00 - [21] - Quote VikingKong iBUN wrote: I honestly hope they get nerf'd to crap again and only a few dedicated heavy players continue to use them. Dust was 10x more fun with only a few heavies around, now it just makes me rage. The best way to win is too get a brainless logi to follow you and walk around pretty much invincible, spamming a minigun that shreds people in half a second and takes zero skill or concentration to use. Good game. Actually this following is quite well thought out. Since assaults and scouts are self-sufficient (which is broken),it leaves logistics with 2 choices. Support logistics,or support heavies. So,support a low eHP,slow,first target with low offense. Or the high eHP,slow,meatshield with high offense. I'm sure logistics would love to support assaults,but the speed to eHP ratio is too radical for that to be a valid choice. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Mexxx Dust-Slayer Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 123	Posted - 2014.11.18 05:00:00 - [22] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: What do you think of the proficiency change from 1.8? stupid. Should have been flat damage. We just encouraged dual tanking more. I am glad to see that I am not the only one who feels this way. I don't know what the intention was behind this change, seems really stupid.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 404	Posted - 2014.11.18 06:59:00 - [23] - Quote I don't see the point of the HMG if it is not as good as CQC rifles in CQC... Your heavy spam is more a matter of Logis rep ability than anything else (not that logi rep should be changed.)
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 700	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:47:00 - [24] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: I don't see the point of the HMG if it is not as good as CQC rifles in CQC... Your heavy spam is more a matter of Logis rep ability than anything else (not that logi rep should be changed.) The HMG would be a tool used to keep people off of a point at range instead. It would work similarly to a large blaster turret - powerful if you're caught in the open at range, neutralized if you can get in close Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4672	Posted - 2014.11.18 15:49:00 - [25] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: I don't see the point of the HMG if it is not as good as CQC rifles in CQC... Your heavy spam is more a matter of Logis rep ability than anything else (not that logi rep should be changed.) this hasn't changed at all...and yet heavy spam has increased dramatically. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5117	Posted - 2014.11.18 16:07:00 - [26] - Quote You're going to need to drop the DPS significantly to get the applied DPS Below even the most obnoxious rifle. I'd prefer rifles got the nerf reverted. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
CLONE117 True Pros Forever 872	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:16:00 - [27] - Quote dont heavies have the worse profile and scan precision out of everything else? Clone117:MLT specialist. Translation:dont mess with me or you lose... what ever it is you had on you at the time.
korrah silain True Illuminate 1	Posted - 2014.11.19 06:16:00 - [28] - Quote Well one optionight be to slow aim, and turning while firing...
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 404	Posted - 2014.11.19 06:34:00 - [29] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: The HMG would be a tool used to keep people off of a point at range instead. It would work similarly to a large blaster turret - powerful if you're caught in the open at range, neutralized if you can get in close I have heard this before. But honestly it doesn't make sense to me. You want the slowest easiest to snipe, hardest to reposition suit to be the overwatch suit? I've heard this before from Breakin and it still just confuses me. If the suit becomes the long range suppression suit where will that leave lasers, SCRs, Tac ARs and Rails? And since they are slow they can't really flank or move position with the battle well. It just seems counterintuitive to me.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5148	Posted - 2014.11.19 12:59:00 - [30] - Quote The problem is bluntly the assertion that point-defense and point-blank defense are identical concepts. You can defend a point at any range, it's just the longer the range your weapon is the further out you can engage incoming targets. point defense is literally "sitting on a point and keeping the enemy out." It's that simple. You don't need to do it at fistfighting range. But because the HMG operates at danger-close it's always going to be either heinously OP or worthless overall. the balance point stands at a razor's edge because it's intended to run on a DPS rather than alpha model. But since Alpha > DPS in close (lookin at you shotgun!) the HMG DPS has had to be tooled up so high that it front loads and resembles an alpha weapon whenever you're shooting something more lightly armored than a heavy dropsuit. But because Heavies have been CQC for so long people have it programmed in that this is what they SHOULD be. I dread the day of the gallente heavy weapon. Gallente are supposed to be the shortest of range. How can you make it shorter than the HMG and still be viable without having the same balance problems that the HMG suffers from? EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.



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