DUST Search - Sticky:[Feedback] EWAR Concentric Circle Scan Falloff Design

Cass Caul wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

Cass Caul wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

Scouts are now only unscannable in Medium and Long Range

Let me stop you here.
This is by far the most destructive thing you could possible do to the Scout Role.
You're honestly making the Minmatar Scout unplayable in competitive levels.
This will completely invalidate a Nova Knife user. There is no way a suit with under 400HP is going to make it within the 34m radius a Caldari Scout has with 15 dB precision or the 14dB precision of an Amarr Scout at 34m.

Congrats. If you're goal was to remove the Minmtar Scout form play you did it.
Congrats. If you're goal was to recreate the Caldari Scout's role of sitting in a corner to provide Omniscient Scans again you've succeeded.

Did you not see any of the posts by dedicated Minmtar Scouts in how much they were affected by the change to the cloak? Because Nova Knives in the Sidearm Slot has increased in difficulty by magnitudes.

Though I suppose we can thank Zatara for pushing the concept of "Scouts need to dedicate 4 low slots to use stealth" into the field.

Yep. Bravo. I'm done.
Someone let me know if Scouts are ever allowed to play instead of being better suited to being AFK while the rest of the team fights it out.

So, in short, Minmatar Scouts need some buff?

With the "Shoot while cloaked" bug fix, nothing is stopping us from making the Cloak better and less tiered and Active, instead of the overly passive system.

It says very clearly that "no changes" are being made to the Scouts attributes, and will be addressed with well thought out efficacy changes plus learnings from this first iteration.

I'm saying that as long as Scouts don't have a ROLE bonus, instead of a Racial one, there will always be an imbalance in Scout distribution because the one that takes the fewest low slots, the slots that compete with modules such as kinetic catalyzers and codebreakers, that one will always be the best choice.

Seeing as one of the four scouts only have 2 low slots, that means Profile Dampeners need a 10% per level efficacy bonus and an active cloak, something that shouldn't be a choice as to whether a player wants to use it.

If you don't change base stats, like you just said, then the Caldari Scout can already get to the same level of precision as the Focused Active Scanner again.

With those proposed numbers there are 3 different ways to get a suit to Gallente Logistics' Focused Scanner's Precision with a range of 33-43m. If you take awaay the Caldari Scout's affinity for scan range, you can reduce that to 2 but there's no way people won't min-max scanning.

People abhor having to match skill vs skill when it comes to situational awareness, why should they have to look anywhere other than the corner of their screen to know where someone is?!

If Dampeners were to reduce range like precision increases profile, instead of forcing the cloak down everyone's throat that wants to play the EWAR game.

The game is still all about absolutes. How often, honestly, are people killed outside 40m?
Can you get that number? Can you see each by game mode?
If a Logistics suit can get Precision to a point where the majority of suits can't avoid it and get range matching or exceeding the average kill range then how is this any more fluid?

Hyper-vigilant Precision. So what if Precision adds to Profile? Someone else is just going to run that high precision build to see everyone around them anyway.

@ little sammy:
You're right. total misinformation. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2173587#post2173587
On the precipice of alpha "The bonus's need to be 1 module difference, not 2, speaking of the cal and gal scout bonuses at the high end scanning."
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2176785#post2176785
Gal Scout discussion thread, "This aside from making min scouts unscannable with 3 complex damps is the way to go. "
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2176876#post2176876
"thus 3 damps by amarr and 3 damps (but perhaps a basic instead of the complex) by a gal are required to get under the min/maxing of a gal logi focused scanner. "
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2177170#post2177170
All you've done since is say how it's unfair how Detection doesn't overcome dampening.
Has something changed during your tenure on the CPM? No, it hasn't.

Total misinformation.

P.S. It takes like all of 5 minutes to search the entirety of a post you want to find. There's nothing special or time consuming about it.

I also love seeing al the "Focused Scanner has high fitting cost," in posts in this thread. For reference, dampening below it takes anywhere form 149 CPU and 18PG comprised of 2 low slots and an Equipment slot vs 1 EQ slot and only 29CPU and 14PG. Or for Min and Amarr it takes another 33 CPU and another low slot.

Focused scanners have such a high fitting cost... Roll

"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 13 post(s)

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 11477	Posted - 2014.11.17 08:27:00 - [1] - Quote Dear players, When we added the additional Vehicle Awareness Circle in 1.9, a new code logic was implemented that allowed different passive scan settings. After posting the EWAR ideas thread, the community proposed using these to mimic dynamic precision falloff. I had asked for the same thing in the past, and was told it was too difficult and number intensive to do. Well, the good news is, that we have managed to do exactly this in code. I have been pretty coy about it until we properly QA'd it, but today was a success of demonstrating dropsuits of various roles, and module combinations, moving in and out of these passive ranges, demonstrating fairly dynamic behavior. The system is fairly straightforward. We define the "absolute value" of each dropsuit's Passive Scan with Precision, Profile and Range. (We have this already defined) We define one smaller circle and another larger circle using a Range modifier. We then define the Precision within these two new circles, using a Precision modifier. Done. See this simplified picture: We retain the current meta in the middle circle where everything is as it was. At other ranges, things are quite different. In theory, we have completely moved out of the GÇ£scanned versus not scannedGÇ¥ meta and into a much changed EWAR environment, where everyone and anyone can utilize any of the EWAR modules to some extent, further reinforcing the GÇ£waves of opportunityGÇ¥ game design principle. A Sentinel trading a few lows for a few meters of very strong Precision, an Assault using a Dampener or two to get into through long and even medium range, etc. You get the picture. Now for the numbers. We are in uncharted territory, if you will, the combinations of dropsuits and modules, who scans whom, how and when. I asked our resident EWAR expert, Haerr to setup a dynamic spreadsheet where the final numbers can be browsed, with the exact number of complex modules needed to evade scans at different scan radii. We donGÇÖt have those numbers nailed down yet, but we have the framework to discuss them here. In this spreadsheet we have some preliminary numbers to play with. Those can and will be changed. There may be other changes that are deemed necessary, such as Scout Skills (Amarr, Caldari, Gallente), Dropsuit Skills (all 3) or even Modules (looking at you mr. Amplifier). This is all, we believe, for the greater good of DUST 514. The CPM has called for it, the Community has called for it and CCP has wanted it for a long time. LetGÇÖs discuss calmly and have a bit of fun with this. ItGÇÖs not every day a big change like this can shake up the meta. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 11478	Posted - 2014.11.17 09:08:00 - [2] - Quote Kuruld Sengar wrote: I'm really liking this idea,but I was wondering. Do the dropsuit ewar skills apply to the base value without starting the stacking penalty process, or do the dropsuit skills count as an additional penalized modifier? Skills only affect the base number, and stacking penalties then apply against a higher base, but do not inflict further stacking penalties. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 11505	Posted - 2014.11.17 13:25:00 - [3] - Quote It can be quite frustrating to try and start a dialogue about the changes, and the majority of replies is: "wtf, so this is going to happen, that's terrible because I heard these numbers were, like, set in stone" "I have great ideas but noone listens so I am not going to post them" or "I thought we were also doing this other thing" Why not just post "I think we should do this because then this will be balanced" or "I see you posted these preliminary numbers and I think this would be a better set of numbers" Just sayin' "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 11512	Posted - 2014.11.17 14:14:00 - [4] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: It is awesome that you made this work. It is a great improvement to the foundation of how scanning works. I am sure this will be messy when released. We are bound to miss something in the planning and find something is completely OP or UP when this feature is released, but with a bit of iteration we will get it right. In the end this will be a major improvement in scanning and make DUST a better game. I agree 100%, we may not get this right in the first go, so let's prepare to be patient. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12484	Posted - 2014.12.01 05:11:00 - [5] - Quote Here is the final proposal. It is heavily based off of the community feedback, but Cat Merc's combination of Planetary Conquest meta review and thoughtful spreadsheet was exceptional. Thanks everyone, especially those that posed "this should be scanned by this" were very good for those last "yeah, that makes really good sense" tweaks. Final Numbers Here are a few collected guidelines from the community and CCP: Design Principles Lvl 5 precision Assault should scan lvl 5 scouts in close Assault should scan undampened sentinels in long Close Range should be long enough and strong enough to matter Max prior range should be the same, reducing Amplier module Max prior range should be the same, reducing Amplifier skill To allow counterplay - precision modules give an equal penalty to profile Not changing Scout base numbers at all; this round One dampener should get Mediums some benefit One precision should get Mediums some benefit One amplifier should get Mediums some benefit Lvl 5 Short Medium Precision should scan Prototype Equipment 3X dampening on Sentinel should get good benefit No Directional Arrow on Minimap Adding properly calculated EWAR stats to fittings screen Commando should have better sig profile (-5) than Sentinel, Sentinel has better precision (+5) - skirmisher vs point defense Assault should have better sig profile (-5) than Logi, Same Precision, Logi has better range Sentinels need one Precision to scan down PRO Remote Explosives Scouts are now only unscannable in Medium and Long Range Standard Scanner scans Standard Equipment Advanced Scanner scans Advanced Equipment Prototype Scanner scans Prototype Equipment For later discussion Scouts get redefined with efficacy, possibly other attributes Active Scanners Vehicle Scanners Uplinks with different Scan Precision Size of Dot or intensity is based on profile, combined with precision penalty Action influenced profile passive bonus to cloak, higher when active, helps make it useful after "decloak delay" Cross bonuses/penalties (range and precision,etc) Range Amps to High Extenders and/or Plates add signature profile Special Spy Uplinks Changes to Gallogi/Cloak and Focused Scanners go hand in hand "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12485	Posted - 2014.12.01 05:28:00 - [6] - Quote hfderrtgvcd wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: stuff Precision/Profile round to the nearest number with ties going to scanner iirc. This means a scout with two precision will scan an assault with two dampeners. Is this intended? Well, the scout is naturally better at precision, so I don't see an issue with that at all. Why would the reverse make sense? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12490	Posted - 2014.12.01 07:45:00 - [7] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Scouts are now only unscannable in Medium and Long Range Let me stop you here. This is by far the most destructive thing you could possible do to the Scout Role. You're honestly making the Minmatar Scout unplayable in competitive levels. This will completely invalidate a Nova Knife user. There is no way a suit with under 400HP is going to make it within the 34m radius a Caldari Scout has with 15 dB precision or the 14dB precision of an Amarr Scout at 34m. Congrats. If you're goal was to remove the Minmtar Scout form play you did it. Congrats. If you're goal was to recreate the Caldari Scout's role of sitting in a corner to provide Omniscient Scans again you've succeeded. Did you not see any of the posts by dedicated Minmtar Scouts in how much they were affected by the change to the cloak? Because Nova Knives in the Sidearm Slot has increased in difficulty by magnitudes. Though I suppose we can thank Zatara for pushing the concept of "Scouts need to dedicate 4 low slots to use stealth" into the field. Yep. Bravo. I'm done. Someone let me know if Scouts are ever allowed to play instead of being better suited to being AFK while the rest of the team fights it out. So, in short, Minmatar Scouts need some buff? With the "Shoot while cloaked" bug fix, nothing is stopping us from making the Cloak better and less tiered and Active, instead of the overly passive system. It says very clearly that "no changes" are being made to the Scouts attributes, and will be addressed with well thought out efficacy changes plus learnings from this first iteration. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12491	Posted - 2014.12.01 08:19:00 - [8] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: To allow counterplay - precision modules give an equal penalty to profile This is where I have issue with the whole thing. Scanning is still a far more powerful thing than dampening, since scanning not only reveals everyone around you, but also relays it to the squad, while dampening only hides a single unit. This is to make sure that the scanner is always visible. The hunter becomes the hunted. Take him down and blind the opponent. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12512	Posted - 2014.12.01 14:05:00 - [9] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Cass Caul wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Scouts are now only unscannable in Medium and Long Range Let me stop you here. This is by far the most destructive thing you could possible do to the Scout Role. You're honestly making the Minmatar Scout unplayable in competitive levels. This will completely invalidate a Nova Knife user. There is no way a suit with under 400HP is going to make it within the 34m radius a Caldari Scout has with 15 dB precision or the 14dB precision of an Amarr Scout at 34m. Congrats. If you're goal was to remove the Minmtar Scout form play you did it. Congrats. If you're goal was to recreate the Caldari Scout's role of sitting in a corner to provide Omniscient Scans again you've succeeded. Did you not see any of the posts by dedicated Minmtar Scouts in how much they were affected by the change to the cloak? Because Nova Knives in the Sidearm Slot has increased in difficulty by magnitudes. Though I suppose we can thank Zatara for pushing the concept of "Scouts need to dedicate 4 low slots to use stealth" into the field. Yep. Bravo. I'm done. Someone let me know if Scouts are ever allowed to play instead of being better suited to being AFK while the rest of the team fights it out. So, in short, Minmatar Scouts need some buff? With the "Shoot while cloaked" bug fix, nothing is stopping us from making the Cloak better and less tiered and Active, instead of the overly passive system. It says very clearly that "no changes" are being made to the Scouts attributes, and will be addressed with well thought out efficacy changes plus learnings from this first iteration. I'm saying that as long as Scouts don't have a ROLE bonus, instead of a Racial one, there will always be an imbalance in Scout distribution because the one that takes the fewest low slots, the slots that compete with modules such as kinetic catalyzers and codebreakers, that one will always be the best choice. Seeing as one of the four scouts only have 2 low slots, that means Profile Dampeners need a 10% per level efficacy bonus and an active cloak, something that shouldn't be a choice as to whether a player wants to use it. If you don't change base stats, like you just said, then the Caldari Scout can already get to the same level of precision as the Focused Active Scanner again. With those proposed numbers there are 3 different ways to get a suit to Gallente Logistics' Focused Scanner's Precision with a range of 33-43m. If you take awaay the Caldari Scout's affinity for scan range, you can reduce that to 2 but there's no way people won't min-max scanning. People abhor having to match skill vs skill when it comes to situational awareness, why should they have to look anywhere other than the corner of their screen to know where someone is?! If Dampeners were to reduce range like precision increases profile, instead of forcing the cloak down everyone's throat that wants to play the EWAR game. The game is still all about absolutes. How often, honestly, are people killed outside 40m? Can you get that number? Can you see each by game mode? If a Logistics suit can get Precision to a point where the majority of suits can't avoid it and get range matching or exceeding the average kill range then how is this any more fluid? Hyper-vigilant Precision. So what if Precision adds to Profile? Someone else is just going to run that high precision build to see everyone around them anyway. @ little sammy: You're right. total misinformation. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2173587#post2173587 On the precipice of alpha "The bonus's need to be 1 module difference, not 2, speaking of the cal and gal scout bonuses at the high end scanning." https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2176785#post2176785 Gal Scout discussion thread, "This aside from making min scouts unscannable with 3 complex damps is the way to go. " https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2176876#post2176876 "thus 3 damps by amarr and 3 damps (but perhaps a basic instead of the complex) by a gal are required to get under the min/maxing of a gal logi focused scanner. " https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2177170#post2177170 All you've done since is say how it's unfair how Detection doesn't overcome dampening. Has something changed during your tenure on the CPM? No, it hasn't. Total misinformation. P.S. It takes like all of 5 minutes to search the entirety of a post you want to find. There's nothing special or time consuming about it. I also love seeing al the "Focused Scanner has high fitting cost," in posts in this thread. For reference, dampening below it takes anywhere form 149 CPU and 18PG comprised of 2 low slots and an Equipment slot vs 1 EQ slot and only 29CPU and 14PG. Or for Min and Amarr it takes another 33 CPU and another low slot. Focused scanners have such a high fitting cost... OK, just give us the actual numbers and tweaks necessary. You say, a few things 1) Cloak, can that be used to help the minmatar scout? 2) Should we reduce the Caldari and Amarr bonuses immediately and fix with efficacy later? 3) Should we add range penalties to dampening like you mention? 4) Do we reduce the amplifier module? 5) Do we reduce the amplifier skill? 6) Move Amplifiers to high? Let's get the ideas out there so we can make the necessary changes. I did not propose changes to the Scouts to, for the lack of a better word, honor their specialty. If that is what is necessary, we will do what needs to be done. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12516	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:58:00 - [10] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Two complex damps and a proto cloak:on should enable all Scouts to beat all passive scans and all active scans excluding GA Logi + Focused. Focused Scanner cool down and scan duration should be improved. As far as passives are concerned, Scouts should hunt Scouts and MedFrames hunt MedFrames. All passive, at short range as well? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12519	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:39:00 - [11] - Quote Amps decrease Precision Precision reduces range Both increase Profile "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12542	Posted - 2014.12.02 02:09:00 - [12] - Quote A few tweaks based on feedback, even if I would have preferred the feedback to be more constructive: The Short range reigned in to be much shorter, so that an enemy should be in kill range at the edge, if dampened enough. It was always meant to be the last moments notice, not a a new passive wall hack, 15 meters being a general consensus. And just to be clear, the Active Scanner does not have three circles of scan, and was never intended to. Cloak Dampening increased to 5%/10%/15% to allow Minmatar Scouts to be on equal terms with other Scouts in PC. Amplifier Modules to 25% per level Short scan from 40% to 25% of Range, Medium from 70% to 60% With these changes, Mediums can stay relatively hidden at one or two dampeners, while they stay out of the now much shortened Short range. Reserving for immediate action if necessary Reducing Precision Module Modifier Reducing Amarr native Scout Precision Reducing Caldari native Scout Range Reducing Gallente native Scout Dampening The updated proposal. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12547	Posted - 2014.12.02 05:39:00 - [13] - Quote Locking this now as we have left the realm of constructive criticism "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"