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Nirwanda Vaughns 919	Posted - 2014.11.09 13:52:00 - [1] - Quote Are what Wiyrkomis should be! whoever came up with the stats for it i thank thee. just a shame its an officer drop. Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience proud C-II bpo owner
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 920	Posted - 2014.11.09 14:30:00 - [2] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: Are what Wiyrkomis should be! whoever came up with the stats for it i thank thee. just a shame its an officer drop. Because Swarms need to be even more effective Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1735	Posted - 2014.11.09 14:33:00 - [3] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: Are what Wiyrkomis should be! whoever came up with the stats for it i thank thee. just a shame its an officer drop. Because Swarms need to be even more effective yes they do.. have you tried to take down a proto fit 25m+SP ADS with a competent pilot in a python which gets up to 80% resist to swarms? its a nightmare.. you barely scratch em and they can zip off as fast as all hell if they feel the threat is great enough [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 922	Posted - 2014.11.09 14:39:00 - [4] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: Are what Wiyrkomis should be! whoever came up with the stats for it i thank thee. just a shame its an officer drop. Because Swarms need to be even more effective yes they do.. have you tried to take down a proto fit 25m+SP ADS with a competent pilot in a python which gets up to 80% resist to swarms? its a nightmare.. you barely scratch em and they can zip off as fast as all hell if they feel the threat is great enough If they're running hardeners on their shield vehicle and you're shooting them with an explosive AV weapon then you should be doing next to nothing! The issue is not swarms, it's the lack of anti-shield AV. Stop being scrubbly idiots who want herp-derp point and click swarms to be the be-all end-all AV weapon. Lobby harder for anti-shield weaponry. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Cody Sietz Evzones Public.Disorder. 4105	Posted - 2014.11.09 15:04:00 - [5] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: Are what Wiyrkomis should be! whoever came up with the stats for it i thank thee. just a shame its an officer drop. Because Swarms need to be even more effective yes they do.. have you tried to take down a proto fit 25m+SP ADS with a competent pilot in a python which gets up to 80% resist to swarms? its a nightmare.. you barely scratch em and they can zip off as fast as all hell if they feel the threat is great enough If they're running hardeners on their shield vehicle and you're shooting them with an explosive AV weapon then you should be doing next to nothing! The issue is not swarms, it's the lack of anti-shield AV. Stop being scrubbly idiots who want herp-derp point and click swarms to be the be-all end-all AV weapon. Lobby harder for anti-shield weaponry. Ok...so should we wait another year before its ok to hurt a shield vehicle? "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution 3447	Posted - 2014.11.09 15:14:00 - [6] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: Are what Wiyrkomis should be! whoever came up with the stats for it i thank thee. just a shame its an officer drop. Because Swarms need to be even more effective yes they do.. have you tried to take down a proto fit 25m+SP ADS with a competent pilot in a python which gets up to 80% resist to swarms? its a nightmare.. you barely scratch em and they can zip off as fast as all hell if they feel the threat is great enough If they're running hardeners on their shield vehicle and you're shooting them with an explosive AV weapon then you should be doing next to nothing! The issue is not swarms, it's the lack of anti-shield AV. Stop being scrubbly idiots who want herp-derp point and click swarms to be the be-all end-all AV weapon. Lobby harder for anti-shield weaponry. Ok...so should we wait another year before its ok to hurt a shield vehicle? Cough Forge Guns Cough Now excuse me while I get this cough checked out. Fatal Absolution Director
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 923	Posted - 2014.11.09 15:16:00 - [7] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: Ok...so should we wait another year before its ok to hurt a shield vehicle? Swarms are plenty capable of hurting shield vehicles. As are all of the AV weapons. The only problem we have at the moment is that the most common AV weapon (swarms) people use, people want to be as effective against shields as it is against armour, which is to say that it is ridiculously effective against armour (and rightly so.) As for the quote you posted: they are using hardeners and adhering to the waves of opportunity that CCP ascribed to vehicle modules: the AV wave of opportunity is to attack during the downtime of those modules. Seriously, AV/Swarmers have no concept of balance if this thread is anything to judge them by. Sure, we don't have decent anti-shield AV weapons: this does not mean that anti-armour AV weapons should be able to swat shield vehicles like flies (and subsequently murder the **** out of armour vehicles.) I, as an ADS and primarily Python pilot, want to see anti-shield AV weapons: swarms do not need to be buffed further - even when I run a double hardener fit on my Python swarms hurt badly and still knock my ass about such that my 'wave' is severely curtailed in duration because of all of the adjustments I am forced to endure, to the point that even hardened I am forced to retreat because of the sheer ROF on swarms keeping me from doing anything effectual. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Nirwanda Vaughns 919	Posted - 2014.11.09 15:17:00 - [8] - Quote swarms vs shields are awful. with a built in -20% damage to shields from the off and then a -40% from a hardener a Pyhton/Gunloggi are near impossible to take down before they run off to the redline to hide. if you're repeatedly dying from swarms in a shield vehicle then you're not as good a pilot/tanker as you believe yourself to be or you have 4-5 swarms/forge guns shooting at you. if you're in an armour tanking vehicle then i feel sorry for you and you should support the need to bring AV damage profiles more neutral with slight modifications to vehicle HPs to counter balance it because you guys get tore up. my ideas for the AV were Make AV +/- 0% to shields/armour increase shield vehicle HP by 10% to compensate for the increased damage reduce armour HP by 15% to compensate for the 25%-35% damage reduction they'd receive from the armour damage bonus AV gets Change proficiency from damage increase to bonus that helps the item example - Forge gun +1 to clip size, reduce base clip size to 3 (8 in a clip at prof 5) Swarms - 15m per level lock range and 5% increase swarm flight time Make swarms appear on mini map so pilots can see where they're coming from at least until we some more racial parity. i don't really class Plasma Cannon as AV, sure i guess thats how it can be used but it has bonus of a plasma weapon like shotties and AR's and not explosive and i see it more as an anti infantry/area denial weapon not AV, same as with MDs Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience proud C-II bpo owner
ResistanceGTA D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1677	Posted - 2014.11.09 15:19:00 - [9] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: swarms vs shields are awful. with a built in -20% damage to shields from the off and then a -40% from a hardener a Pyhton/Gunloggi are near impossible to take down before they run off to the redline to hide. if you're repeatedly dying from swarms in a shield vehicle then you're not as good a pilot/tanker as you believe yourself to be or you have 4-5 swarms/forge guns shooting at you. if you're in an armour tanking vehicle then i feel sorry for you and you should support the need to bring AV damage profiles more neutral with slight modifications to vehicle HPs to counter balance it because you guys get tore up. my ideas for the AV were Make AV +/- 0% to shields/armour increase shield vehicle HP by 10% to compensate for the increased damage reduce armour HP by 15% to compensate for the 25%-35% damage reduction they'd receive from the armour damage bonus AV gets Change proficiency from damage increase to bonus that helps the item example - Forge gun +1 to clip size, reduce base clip size to 3 (8 in a clip at prof 5) Swarms - 15m per level lock range and 5% increase swarm flight time Make swarms appear on mini map so pilots can see where they're coming from at least until we some more racial parity. i don't really class Plasma Cannon as AV, sure i guess thats how it can be used but it has bonus of a plasma weapon like shotties and AR's and not explosive and i see it more as an anti infantry/area denial weapon not AV, same as with MDs 8 Round Forge Gun...No... If you find an issue and I stumble upon your thread, I will do my darnedest to get the issue known. Also, Raptors...
Nirwanda Vaughns 919	Posted - 2014.11.09 15:26:00 - [10] - Quote ResistanceGTA wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: swarms vs shields are awful. with a built in -20% damage to shields from the off and then a -40% from a hardener a Pyhton/Gunloggi are near impossible to take down before they run off to the redline to hide. if you're repeatedly dying from swarms in a shield vehicle then you're not as good a pilot/tanker as you believe yourself to be or you have 4-5 swarms/forge guns shooting at you. if you're in an armour tanking vehicle then i feel sorry for you and you should support the need to bring AV damage profiles more neutral with slight modifications to vehicle HPs to counter balance it because you guys get tore up. my ideas for the AV were Make AV +/- 0% to shields/armour increase shield vehicle HP by 10% to compensate for the increased damage reduce armour HP by 15% to compensate for the 25%-35% damage reduction they'd receive from the armour damage bonus AV gets Change proficiency from damage increase to bonus that helps the item example - Forge gun +1 to clip size, reduce base clip size to 3 (8 in a clip at prof 5) Swarms - 15m per level lock range and 5% increase swarm flight time Make swarms appear on mini map so pilots can see where they're coming from at least until we some more racial parity. i don't really class Plasma Cannon as AV, sure i guess thats how it can be used but it has bonus of a plasma weapon like shotties and AR's and not explosive and i see it more as an anti infantry/area denial weapon not AV, same as with MDs 8 Round Forge Gun...No... Seeing as it would take 1.5m sp to get to 8 then yes, but also the new officer has 6 as standard which requires prof 3 so its in line with that so how would be overpowered? if someone is going to put the effort to get a proficiency to 5 then why shouldn't they be rewarded? Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience proud C-II bpo owner

JARREL THOMAS Dead Man's Game RUST415 371	Posted - 2014.11.09 15:27:00 - [11] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: Are what Wiyrkomis should be! whoever came up with the stats for it i thank thee. just a shame its an officer drop. Because Swarms need to be even more effective yes they do.. have you tried to take down a proto fit 25m+SP ADS with a competent pilot in a python which gets up to 80% resist to swarms? its a nightmare.. you barely scratch em and they can zip off as fast as all hell if they feel the threat is great enough No because when ever you guys can't kill a skilled ads pilot you guys buff it and it gets bad for Ads's and hell for hav's Caldari Loyalist I speak for the rabbits
Nirwanda Vaughns 919	Posted - 2014.11.09 15:32:00 - [12] - Quote JARREL THOMAS wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: Are what Wiyrkomis should be! whoever came up with the stats for it i thank thee. just a shame its an officer drop. Because Swarms need to be even more effective yes they do.. have you tried to take down a proto fit 25m+SP ADS with a competent pilot in a python which gets up to 80% resist to swarms? its a nightmare.. you barely scratch em and they can zip off as fast as all hell if they feel the threat is great enough No because when ever you guys can't kill a skilled ads pilot you guys buff it and it gets bad for Ads's and hell for hav's no problems with a skilled ADS pilot, if he's flying an incubus then the guy deserves a medal cos those things crumble to a solo proto swarm pretty easily without a hardener. the issue is damage vs shields not the vehicles or the swarms but the damage profile. Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience proud C-II bpo owner
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 925	Posted - 2014.11.09 15:36:00 - [13] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: swarms vs shields are awful. with a built in -20% damage to shields from the off and then a -40% from a hardener a Pyhton/Gunloggi are near impossible to take down before they run off to the redline to hide. Again, they are utilising their determined (by CCP) waves of opportunity: either they have a hardener to resist your swarms (and again, it's only swarms: PLCs, FGs and vehicle turrets all prevent shield regen) or they get humped. Even with a hardener they are losing shields, unless they double harden. Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: if you're repeatedly dying from swarms in a shield vehicle then you're not as good a pilot/tanker as you believe yourself to be or you have 4-5 swarms/forge guns shooting at you. if you're in an armour tanking vehicle then i feel sorry for you and you should support the need to bring AV damage profiles more neutral with slight modifications to vehicle HPs to counter balance it because you guys get tore up. my ideas for the AV were Not sure if you're directing that at me specifically or not. Profile neutrality is a terrible idea and would serve only as a stopgap measure: racial parity is a far superior goal and serves to not only assist in balancing everything but also gives the players who have missed out their reward for waiting. And as above, only swarms do not break shield regen when the shield vehicle is double hardening: and again, swarms are the most heavily armour biased AV weapon. Stopped expecting armour busting weapons to do the job against something specifically tooled out to resist you. Do you throw a Cal Assault against an Amarr Commando and wonder why your shields vanish? Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: at least until we some more racial parity. i don't really class Plasma Cannon as AV, sure i guess thats how it can be used but it has bonus of a plasma weapon like shotties and AR's and not explosive and i see it more as an anti infantry/area denial weapon not AV, same as with MDs Even as a stopgap measure it is a terrible idea: it just promotes using the easiest weapon to do everything (aka, the Swarm Launcher) because why bother making efforts to learn how to us an FG effectively when you can just derp about with a Swarm? Profiles are part and parcel of the game and racial parity is the only reasonable solution. And the PLC is most definitely an AV weapon: I suggest you find someone who uses one or watch a Pyrex video - the only downside it has in AV usage is against dropships. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
JARREL THOMAS Dead Man's Game RUST415 374	Posted - 2014.11.09 15:40:00 - [14] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: JARREL THOMAS wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: Are what Wiyrkomis should be! whoever came up with the stats for it i thank thee. just a shame its an officer drop. Because Swarms need to be even more effective yes they do.. have you tried to take down a proto fit 25m+SP ADS with a competent pilot in a python which gets up to 80% resist to swarms? its a nightmare.. you barely scratch em and they can zip off as fast as all hell if they feel the threat is great enough No because when ever you guys can't kill a skilled ads pilot you guys buff it and it gets bad for Ads's and hell for hav's no problems with a skilled ADS pilot, if he's flying an incubus then the guy deserves a medal cos those things crumble to a solo proto swarm pretty easily without a hardener. the issue is damage vs shields not the vehicles or the swarms but the damage profile. Run In a tank lets say shield tank with about 4k shields swarms destroy about 1k each shot forge guns I do t even want to think about fg and also you must remember we can't fly away 5 shots it takes to kill us and we know how fast shots can be fired Caldari Loyalist I speak for the rabbits
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 927	Posted - 2014.11.09 15:42:00 - [15] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: no problems with a skilled ADS pilot, if he's flying an incubus then the guy deserves a medal cos those things crumble to a solo proto swarm pretty easily without a hardener. the issue is damage vs shields not the vehicles or the swarms but the damage profile. You have that sentiment entirely backwards: the problem is your thinking that the explosive profile (-20/+20) should be effective against shields. It should not be. The damage profiles are there to stop one weapon/tanking type being the be-all end-all weapon. Swarms are anti-armour. Stop trying to argue that it should be anti-everything. Look at the combat rifle before it got the -15/+15 profile: everyone and their dog used it because it was so effective against everything. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
JARREL THOMAS Dead Man's Game RUST415 374	Posted - 2014.11.09 15:46:00 - [16] - Quote By the way what is the profile of missle tanks? Caldari Loyalist I speak for the rabbits
Nirwanda Vaughns 919	Posted - 2014.11.09 15:49:00 - [17] - Quote to be honest all i seem to see is shield tankers trying to defend that shields are 'fine' when they're not. a skilled ADS/Tank pilot can evade both swarms and forge rounds becasue i've seen it and had some great too-n-fro's with tankers and DS pilots. the main tactic is that as soon as a pilot takes a few hits from swarms they start to make an escape. no denying it because only an idiot would stay in an open space and fight when you're getting AV'd. the damge vs shield and armour is far too unbalanced when there isn't any valid option vs shields. yeah the PLC may be used as AV, hell i've done it myself vs a loggi but it's on the scale as an MD its more of mixed role not specifically aimed at AV like Forge/Swarms. until we see Amarr, Gallente Swarms and Forge guns then armour tankers will continue to be facing a disadvatage vs forge and swarms, hell its why everyone is jumping into caldari vehicles is because everyone knows they have the advantage over armour when it comes to AV Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience proud C-II bpo owner
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 927	Posted - 2014.11.09 15:59:00 - [18] - Quote JARREL THOMAS wrote: By the way what is the profile of missle tanks? I believe it was changed to -15/+15 when the turrets got their profiles tweaked. Not quite sure why its at that (if that is the case.) Even so, that is a heavily negative shield profile, so even if swarms were to be modified to the same as those, that's still something that is quite obviously armour biased. Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: to be honest all i seem to see is shield tankers trying to defend that shields are 'fine' when they're not. Shield tanks are fine. The issue is the AV weapons we do have are primarily armour biased. Introduce light Am/Min AV and heavy Gal/Am/Min AV and you'll see a much more balanced field on both sides. Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: a skilled ADS/Tank pilot can evade both swarms and forge rounds becasue i've seen it and had some great too-n-fro's with tankers and DS pilots. the main tactic is that as soon as a pilot takes a few hits from swarms they start to make an escape. no denying it because only an idiot would stay in an open space and fight when you're getting AV'd. Yes, and even more to the point,swarms almost never miss an ADS because of the lock-on and inability to react in time (to get behind cover) or dodge them. Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: the damge vs shield and armour is far too unbalanced when there isn't any valid option vs shields. Indeed. Which is why we need racial parity. Jack-of-all-profiles is a bad solution. I agree that shield vehicles need shield biased AV weapons to be worried about, but you do not need the ridiculously easy to operate swarms becoming even more effective. Against shields that are taking full advantage of the profiles (whilst diminishing their effectiveness in other areas of resilience,which must be pointed out) will of course be resilient, but they are not invulnerable nor are they unaffected. Your statements seem to be suggesting that shield vehicle are entirely unaffected by swarms and/or FGs, which, quite frankly, is laughable. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
JARREL THOMAS Dead Man's Game RUST415 374	Posted - 2014.11.09 16:01:00 - [19] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: to be honest all i seem to see is shield tankers trying to defend that shields are 'fine' when they're not. a skilled ADS/Tank pilot can evade both swarms and forge rounds becasue i've seen it and had some great too-n-fro's with tankers and DS pilots. the main tactic is that as soon as a pilot takes a few hits from swarms they start to make an escape. no denying it because only an idiot would stay in an open space and fight when you're getting AV'd. the damge vs shield and armour is far too unbalanced when there isn't any valid option vs shields. yeah the PLC may be used as AV, hell i've done it myself vs a loggi but it's on the scale as an MD its more of mixed role not specifically aimed at AV like Forge/Swarms. until we see Amarr, Gallente Swarms and Forge guns then armour tankers will continue to be facing a disadvatage vs forge and swarms, hell its why everyone is jumping into caldari vehicles is because everyone knows they have the advantage over armour when it comes to AV Fg's are incredibly strong if your using adv or basic then they are kind of weak (I means the first adv fg) and swarms are lock on weapons already fire fast and now you want swarms to be shields and armor? This becoming worse than 1.6 swarms Caldari Loyalist I speak for the rabbits
Nirwanda Vaughns 919	Posted - 2014.11.09 16:01:00 - [20] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: no problems with a skilled ADS pilot, if he's flying an incubus then the guy deserves a medal cos those things crumble to a solo proto swarm pretty easily without a hardener. the issue is damage vs shields not the vehicles or the swarms but the damage profile. You have that sentiment entirely backwards: the problem is your thinking that the explosive profile (-20/+20) should be effective against shields. It should not be. The damage profiles are there to stop one weapon/tanking type being the be-all end-all weapon. Swarms are anti-armour. Stop trying to argue that it should be anti-everything. Look at the combat rifle before it got the -15/+15 profile: everyone and their dog used it because it was so effective against everything. but there isn't any 'valid' AV thats directed towards shield. only flux nades and PLC. its not about swarms/forge being anti everything if you looked at the post i clearly stated raising shield hp to compensate slightly for the increased damage they'd receive as well as lowering armour hp. for every 10-15 armour vehicle i take down only 1 or none shield vehicle will go down, i'm not trying to make swarms/FG's all powerful if i was then i'd be saying "ahh fk the extra HP change swarms to 8 missiles and put damage to 500 per missile wah wah wah" when currently with the tools available the only way to balance AV is to alter damage profile slightly on the 2 main AV weapons because when it comes to AV the only winner is a shield tanking vehicle. because currently swarms and forge are** OP vs Armour and if you wasn't so scared of your shield vehicles getting 'nerfed' then you'd realize that damage profiles need to be changed at least until other racial swarms/FGs are introduced. how is it balanced that out of 4 'AV' wepaons only 1 has a proficiency vs shields? (PLC) Mass driver - Explosive (-20% shields) Forge - Rail weapon (-10% shields) Swarms - Explosive (-20% sheilds) PLC Plasma (+10% shields) then you have grenades, AV is explosive again so -20% shields and then flux whick is 100% shields. because yeah AV is totally balanced Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience proud C-II bpo owner

Nirwanda Vaughns 919	Posted - 2014.11.09 16:04:00 - [21] - Quote JARREL THOMAS wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: to be honest all i seem to see is shield tankers trying to defend that shields are 'fine' when they're not. a skilled ADS/Tank pilot can evade both swarms and forge rounds becasue i've seen it and had some great too-n-fro's with tankers and DS pilots. the main tactic is that as soon as a pilot takes a few hits from swarms they start to make an escape. no denying it because only an idiot would stay in an open space and fight when you're getting AV'd. the damge vs shield and armour is far too unbalanced when there isn't any valid option vs shields. yeah the PLC may be used as AV, hell i've done it myself vs a loggi but it's on the scale as an MD its more of mixed role not specifically aimed at AV like Forge/Swarms. until we see Amarr, Gallente Swarms and Forge guns then armour tankers will continue to be facing a disadvatage vs forge and swarms, hell its why everyone is jumping into caldari vehicles is because everyone knows they have the advantage over armour when it comes to AV Fg's are incredibly strong if your using adv or basic then they are kind of weak (I means the first adv fg) and swarms are lock on weapons already fire fast and now you want swarms to be shields and armor? This becoming worse than 1.6 swarms Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: increase shield vehicle HP by 10% to compensate for the increased damage reduce armour HP by 15% to compensate for the 25%-35% damage reduction they'd receive from the armour damage bonus AV gets how? yes you bring the damage profile inlone but i sugegsted bringing HP up/down to compensate for the increase/decrease damage. the only downside is that shield vehicles wouldn't be so much powerful compared to armour and pilots wwould have a valid choice between armour or shield, not everyone having to go shields because armour vehicles suck a*. as i say its hsield users just worried their pythins and gunloggis won't be the be all eand end all Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience proud C-II bpo owner*
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 927	Posted - 2014.11.09 16:05:00 - [22] - Quote Nirwanda, the solution is not to make any one profile good against everything though, otherwise you run into exactly the same issue as old combat rifles did: everyone used them because there was no downside. The swarm is already the most commonly used AV weapon because it is so easy to use effectively: reducing the profile to a flag -0/+0 would make it ridiculously effective - why would anyone ever use Forge Guns or even vehicle based AV? Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
JARREL THOMAS Dead Man's Game RUST415 374	Posted - 2014.11.09 16:07:00 - [23] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: no problems with a skilled ADS pilot, if he's flying an incubus then the guy deserves a medal cos those things crumble to a solo proto swarm pretty easily without a hardener. the issue is damage vs shields not the vehicles or the swarms but the damage profile. You have that sentiment entirely backwards: the problem is your thinking that the explosive profile (-20/+20) should be effective against shields. It should not be. The damage profiles are there to stop one weapon/tanking type being the be-all end-all weapon. Swarms are anti-armour. Stop trying to argue that it should be anti-everything. Look at the combat rifle before it got the -15/+15 profile: everyone and their dog used it because it was so effective against everything. but there isn't any 'valid' AV thats directed towards shield. only flux nades and PLC. its not about swarms/forge being anti everything if you looked at the post i clearly stated raising shield hp to compensate slightly for the increased damage they'd receive as well as lowering armour hp. for every 10-15 armour vehicle i take down only 1 or none shield vehicle will go down, i'm not trying to make swarms/FG's all powerful if i was then i'd be saying "ahh fk the extra HP change swarms to 8 missiles and put damage to 500 per missile wah wah wah" when currently with the tools available the only way to balance AV is to alter damage profile slightly on the 2 main AV weapons because when it comes to AV the only winner is a shield tanking vehicle. because currently swarms and forge are** OP vs Armour and if you wasn't so scared of your shield vehicles getting 'nerfed' then you'd realize that damage profiles need to be changed at least until other racial swarms/FGs are introduced. how is it balanced that out of 4 'AV' wepaons only 1 has a proficiency vs shields? (PLC) Mass driver - Explosive (-20% shields) Forge - Rail weapon (-10% shields) Swarms - Explosive (-20% sheilds) PLC Plasma (+10% shields) then you have grenades, AV is explosive again so -20% shields and then flux whick is 100% shields. because yeah AV is totally balanced I'm not sure how you used Plc but they are effective in teamwork Might I ad that I believe that av should require teamwork do you use it while you are using Plc? Caldari Loyalist I speak for the rabbits
VikingKong iBUN T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 181	Posted - 2014.11.09 16:10:00 - [24] - Quote Get a buddy to help you, or find a blueberry with AV and shoot at the same time as him. Then you'll destroy the dropship in 1 volley and be like "lol that was incredibly easy."
JARREL THOMAS Dead Man's Game RUST415 374	Posted - 2014.11.09 16:11:00 - [25] - Quote Or swarms for that matter Caldari Loyalist I speak for the rabbits
Nirwanda Vaughns 919	Posted - 2014.11.09 16:12:00 - [26] - Quote JARREL THOMAS wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: no problems with a skilled ADS pilot, if he's flying an incubus then the guy deserves a medal cos those things crumble to a solo proto swarm pretty easily without a hardener. the issue is damage vs shields not the vehicles or the swarms but the damage profile. You have that sentiment entirely backwards: the problem is your thinking that the explosive profile (-20/+20) should be effective against shields. It should not be. The damage profiles are there to stop one weapon/tanking type being the be-all end-all weapon. Swarms are anti-armour. Stop trying to argue that it should be anti-everything. Look at the combat rifle before it got the -15/+15 profile: everyone and their dog used it because it was so effective against everything. but there isn't any 'valid' AV thats directed towards shield. only flux nades and PLC. its not about swarms/forge being anti everything if you looked at the post i clearly stated raising shield hp to compensate slightly for the increased damage they'd receive as well as lowering armour hp. for every 10-15 armour vehicle i take down only 1 or none shield vehicle will go down, i'm not trying to make swarms/FG's all powerful if i was then i'd be saying "ahh fk the extra HP change swarms to 8 missiles and put damage to 500 per missile wah wah wah" when currently with the tools available the only way to balance AV is to alter damage profile slightly on the 2 main AV weapons because when it comes to AV the only winner is a shield tanking vehicle. because currently swarms and forge are** OP vs Armour and if you wasn't so scared of your shield vehicles getting 'nerfed' then you'd realize that damage profiles need to be changed at least until other racial swarms/FGs are introduced. how is it balanced that out of 4 'AV' wepaons only 1 has a proficiency vs shields? (PLC) Mass driver - Explosive (-20% shields) Forge - Rail weapon (-10% shields) Swarms - Explosive (-20% sheilds) PLC Plasma (+10% shields) then you have grenades, AV is explosive again so -20% shields and then flux whick is 100% shields. because yeah AV is totally balanced I'm not sure how you used Plc but they are effective in teamwork Might I ad that I believe that av should require teamwork do you use it while you are using Plc? have you ever used one vs a Python? vs ground based it can be used well and yeah i've used it with a guy i've ran with for the past 2yrs who's a FGer, if we're going up against loggis i'll either have my galmando with PLC and hit it with a PLC as he's charging the FG, soon as i hit he fires. other option is i'll use cloacked scout with proto flux nades and basically stand/run next to the logi holding the nade and then he fires when the nade goes off. Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience proud C-II bpo owner
Nirwanda Vaughns 919	Posted - 2014.11.09 16:17:00 - [27] - Quote VikingKong iBUN wrote: Get a buddy to help you, or find a blueberry with AV and shoot at the same time as him. Then you'll destroy the dropship in 1 volley and be like "lol that was incredibly easy." a viper has 2500 shields. proto swarms on a proto minmando with 2 complex DMs will do about 1100. but thanks to your logic you help my case. if i, solo, can take down a madrugar but 3 AVers struggle to take down a gunloggi how is it balanced? Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience proud C-II bpo owner
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14985	Posted - 2014.11.09 16:19:00 - [28] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: Are what Wiyrkomis should be! whoever came up with the stats for it i thank thee. just a shame its an officer drop. Because Swarms need to be even more effective yes they do.. have you tried to take down a proto fit 25m+SP ADS with a competent pilot in a python which gets up to 80% resist to swarms? its a nightmare.. you barely scratch em and they can zip off as fast as all hell if they feel the threat is great enough Because ** Incubus DUST Judas has ruined anything not Caldari. You can all choke on it. Damn point and click scrubs Ten Year Plan (pâÄa¦át¢èa¦á)pâÄs+íGö+GöüGö+** Bitter Vet extraordinaire
JARREL THOMAS Dead Man's Game RUST415 374	Posted - 2014.11.09 16:20:00 - [29] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: JARREL THOMAS wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: no problems with a skilled ADS pilot, if he's flying an incubus then the guy deserves a medal cos those things crumble to a solo proto swarm pretty easily without a hardener. the issue is damage vs shields not the vehicles or the swarms but the damage profile. You have that sentiment entirely backwards: the problem is your thinking that the explosive profile (-20/+20) should be effective against shields. It should not be. The damage profiles are there to stop one weapon/tanking type being the be-all end-all weapon. Swarms are anti-armour. Stop trying to argue that it should be anti-everything. Look at the combat rifle before it got the -15/+15 profile: everyone and their dog used it because it was so effective against everything. but there isn't any 'valid' AV thats directed towards shield. only flux nades and PLC. its not about swarms/forge being anti everything if you looked at the post i clearly stated raising shield hp to compensate slightly for the increased damage they'd receive as well as lowering armour hp. for every 10-15 armour vehicle i take down only 1 or none shield vehicle will go down, i'm not trying to make swarms/FG's all powerful if i was then i'd be saying "ahh fk the extra HP change swarms to 8 missiles and put damage to 500 per missile wah wah wah" when currently with the tools available the only way to balance AV is to alter damage profile slightly on the 2 main AV weapons because when it comes to AV the only winner is a shield tanking vehicle. because currently swarms and forge are** OP vs Armour and if you wasn't so scared of your shield vehicles getting 'nerfed' then you'd realize that damage profiles need to be changed at least until other racial swarms/FGs are introduced. how is it balanced that out of 4 'AV' wepaons only 1 has a proficiency vs shields? (PLC) Mass driver - Explosive (-20% shields) Forge - Rail weapon (-10% shields) Swarms - Explosive (-20% sheilds) PLC Plasma (+10% shields) then you have grenades, AV is explosive again so -20% shields and then flux whick is 100% shields. because yeah AV is totally balanced I'm not sure how you used Plc but they are effective in teamwork Might I ad that I believe that av should require teamwork do you use it while you are using Plc? have you ever used one vs a Python? vs ground based it can be used well and yeah i've used it with a guy i've ran with for the past 2yrs who's a FGer, if we're going up against loggis i'll either have my galmando with PLC and hit it with a PLC as he's charging the FG, soon as i hit he fires. other option is i'll use cloacked scout with proto flux nades and basically stand/run next to the logi holding the nade and then he fires when the nade goes off. Yes and that should of destroyed him (thinking that you did it again to finish him off) Because if your thinking of this as if you should be able to solo one since our vehicles cost a lot more Caldari Loyalist I speak for the rabbits
JARREL THOMAS Dead Man's Game RUST415 374	Posted - 2014.11.09 16:25:00 - [30] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: VikingKong iBUN wrote: Get a buddy to help you, or find a blueberry with AV and shoot at the same time as him. Then you'll destroy the dropship in 1 volley and be like "lol that was incredibly easy." a viper has 2500 shields. proto swarms on a proto minmando with 2 complex DMs will do about 1100. but thanks to your logic you help my case. if i, solo, can take down a madrugar/incubus but 3 AVers struggle to take down a gunloggi/python how is it balanced? as i keep trying to stress, the tools themselves arn't the issue its the damage between the 2 defense types and a lack of other options thats causing unbalance. That's because you avers did that you turned maddies into crap much more different in 1.7 I believe all tanks should require atleast 2 people to destroy a tank and if 3 people can't destroy a gunlogi then he's really good or....well you know Caldari Loyalist I speak for the rabbits

Nirwanda Vaughns 924	Posted - 2014.11.09 16:32:00 - [31] - Quote JARREL THOMAS wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: VikingKong iBUN wrote: Get a buddy to help you, or find a blueberry with AV and shoot at the same time as him. Then you'll destroy the dropship in 1 volley and be like "lol that was incredibly easy." a viper has 2500 shields. proto swarms on a proto minmando with 2 complex DMs will do about 1100. but thanks to your logic you help my case. if i, solo, can take down a madrugar/incubus but 3 AVers struggle to take down a gunloggi/python how is it balanced? as i keep trying to stress, the tools themselves arn't the issue its the damage between the 2 defense types and a lack of other options thats causing unbalance. That's because you avers did that you turned maddies into crap much more different in 1.7 I believe all tanks should require atleast 2 people to destroy a tank and if 3 people can't destroy a gunlogi then he's really good or....well you know because it couldn't in no way be down to forge and swarms doing +35% to armour (with prof 5)? a dumb gunloggi can be taken down with reasonable ease, by dumb i mean one who thinks he's invincible cos he has a hardener running and he's in a loggi and stays to fight. th emain issue is that a clever loggi can get away for too easily and out of range of both forge and swarms because of the reduced damage and charge/flight times of the AV. armour vehicles though then generally if i've shot my 3 rounds from my proto swarms in my AV suit they're usually dead Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience proud C-II bpo owner
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14985	Posted - 2014.11.09 16:35:00 - [32] - Quote Dont forget that on top of admor taking more damage, shields take less And Rat has the audacity to suggest that the two ships are even, what a tool. Ten Year Plan (pâÄa¦át¢èa¦á)pâÄs+íGö+GöüGö+ Bitter Vet extraordinaire
VikingKong iBUN T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 181	Posted - 2014.11.09 16:38:00 - [33] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: VikingKong iBUN wrote: Get a buddy to help you, or find a blueberry with AV and shoot at the same time as him. Then you'll destroy the dropship in 1 volley and be like "lol that was incredibly easy." a viper has 2500 shields. proto swarms on a proto minmando with 2 complex DMs will do about 1100. but thanks to your logic you help my case. if i, solo, can take down a madrugar/incubus but 3 AVers struggle to take down a gunloggi/python how is it balanced? as i keep trying to stress, the tools themselves arn't the issue its the damage between the 2 defense types and a lack of other options thats causing unbalance. What do you think that's like for the pilot? He's got a guy shooting at him constantly with swarms that do almost half his hp in 1 volley, you think he has time to stop and shoot at you? As soon as he hears that swarm launcher go off he is instantly preparing to move away, he can no longer think about fighting back because he has to run or die. And the guy with the swarm launcher gets points for it, while the pilot gets nothing and has to run away. Then when he's repped and goes back into battle he has the same guy on him again, and the same thing repeats. It's no fun at all, and that's just with 1 decent AV guy on the enemy team - who's wearing a suit that costs less than 1/4 what your dropship does.
JARREL THOMAS Dead Man's Game RUST415 374	Posted - 2014.11.09 16:38:00 - [34] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: JARREL THOMAS wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: VikingKong iBUN wrote: Get a buddy to help you, or find a blueberry with AV and shoot at the same time as him. Then you'll destroy the dropship in 1 volley and be like "lol that was incredibly easy." a viper has 2500 shields. proto swarms on a proto minmando with 2 complex DMs will do about 1100. but thanks to your logic you help my case. if i, solo, can take down a madrugar/incubus but 3 AVers struggle to take down a gunloggi/python how is it balanced? as i keep trying to stress, the tools themselves arn't the issue its the damage between the 2 defense types and a lack of other options thats causing unbalance. That's because you avers did that you turned maddies into crap much more different in 1.7 I believe all tanks should require atleast 2 people to destroy a tank and if 3 people can't destroy a gunlogi then he's really good or....well you know because it couldn't in no way be down to forge and swarms doing +35% to armour (with prof 5)? a dumb gunloggi can be taken down with reasonable ease, by dumb i mean one who thinks he's invincible cos he has a hardener running and he's in a loggi and stays to fight. th emain issue is that a clever loggi can get away for too easily and out of range of both forge and swarms because of the reduced damage and charge/flight times of the AV. armour vehicles though then generally if i've shot my 3 rounds from my proto swarms in my AV suit they're usually dead We don't go that fast ground vehicles HAVs have no chance of escape if we're running around corners that's the only way we can escape on a strait path we would lose that rase and I forgot the forge gun but has an increased charged time Caldari Loyalist I speak for the rabbits
Nirwanda Vaughns 924	Posted - 2014.11.09 17:01:00 - [35] - Quote JARREL THOMAS wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: JARREL THOMAS wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: VikingKong iBUN wrote: Get a buddy to help you, or find a blueberry with AV and shoot at the same time as him. Then you'll destroy the dropship in 1 volley and be like "lol that was incredibly easy." a viper has 2500 shields. proto swarms on a proto minmando with 2 complex DMs will do about 1100. but thanks to your logic you help my case. if i, solo, can take down a madrugar/incubus but 3 AVers struggle to take down a gunloggi/python how is it balanced? as i keep trying to stress, the tools themselves arn't the issue its the damage between the 2 defense types and a lack of other options thats causing unbalance. That's because you avers did that you turned maddies into crap much more different in 1.7 I believe all tanks should require atleast 2 people to destroy a tank and if 3 people can't destroy a gunlogi then he's really good or....well you know because it couldn't in no way be down to forge and swarms doing +35% to armour (with prof 5)? a dumb gunloggi can be taken down with reasonable ease, by dumb i mean one who thinks he's invincible cos he has a hardener running and he's in a loggi and stays to fight. th emain issue is that a clever loggi can get away for too easily and out of range of both forge and swarms because of the reduced damage and charge/flight times of the AV. armour vehicles though then generally if i've shot my 3 rounds from my proto swarms in my AV suit they're usually dead We don't go that fast ground vehicles HAVs have no chance of escape if we're running around corners that's the only way we can escape on a strait path we would lose that rase and I forgot the forge gun but has an increased charged time loggis are quick enough trust me. swarms only have a lock range of 175m and forge range was dropped to about 200-250m i think. when you take into account that most AV takes place at around 90m range from AV to target its not too tough to get away from and you only have to dip down a small hill for swarms to plough into floor or a forge round to whiz over your head. at most with charge times and a loggi moving off you can get off about 1-2 round before its out of range. also the FG guy may miss as you speed off seeign as its not a guided shot. buy again thats a clever loggi driver and again the issue i'm making is that a poor armour vehicle pilot wouldn't even get the chance to think of driving off. the idea isn't to buff swarms or nerf shields but alter damage in order to bring balance to each vehicle defense type. because if AV and vehicle defense types are balanced then lets, for a laugh, swap proficiencies and damage profiles of swarms and forge over from armour to shields and vice-versa with PLC. seeing as they're so balanced it shouldn't make any difference should it? because if as you claim, they're so balanced then there shouldn't be any issue with swarms doing +35% damage to a python or gunloggis shields should there? Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience proud C-II bpo owner
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 933	Posted - 2014.11.09 17:19:00 - [36] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: because if AV and vehicle defense types are balanced then lets, for a laugh, swap proficiencies and damage profiles of swarms and forge over from armour to shields and vice-versa with PLC. seeing as they're so balanced it shouldn't make any difference should it? because if as you claim, they're so balanced then there shouldn't be any issue with swarms doing +35% damage to a python or gunloggis shields should there? No, it wouldn't make a difference, it would make the meta switch around. As before, what we need is the full gamut of AV weaponry. Your point about making the profiles neutral is stupid because it means shields/armour are no different, making armour far superior (passive, persistent reps and higher HP pools versus low HP and interruptable regeneration.) Edit: your complaints are about shields having an advantage, the solution is not to drop the profiles or switch them around; neither of those solves the issues we have. Only adding anti-shield AV makes the meta balanced. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Nirwanda Vaughns 925	Posted - 2014.11.09 17:29:00 - [37] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: because if AV and vehicle defense types are balanced then lets, for a laugh, swap proficiencies and damage profiles of swarms and forge over from armour to shields and vice-versa with PLC. seeing as they're so balanced it shouldn't make any difference should it? because if as you claim, they're so balanced then there shouldn't be any issue with swarms doing +35% damage to a python or gunloggis shields should there? No, it wouldn't make a difference, it would make the meta switch around. As before, what we need is the full gamut of AV weaponry. Your point about making the profiles neutral is stupid because it means shields/armour are no different, making armour far superior (passive, persistent reps and higher HP pools versus low HP and interruptable regeneration.) exactly so they're not balanced, everyone would move from shields to armour because its unbalanced, there has to be a reason to choose one defense over the other but currently there isn't. armour is supposed to be long engagements taking in a lot of damage and shields are fast vehicles, quick in-out attack style but it doesn't work like that and armour vehicles die very very quickly. infantry we have various suits and weapons. if you come up against caldari you don't use CR or RR because of the weakness to shields, you'd use a laser or AR, thing is with AV there isn't really that option and for heavies its the FG or none. if we had a gallente forge then it'd be balanced but we don't so bringing the damage to neutral but arranging vehicle hitpoints to compensate then it allows a more equal balance between shields and armour instead of there being too much favour for one over the other armour maddys used to be a pain, simple solutions? make armour repairers active modules again but increase the cycle to allow for the sustained engagement, but it has to run when time starts ticking out on its reppers. not rocket science Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience proud C-II bpo owner
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 165	Posted - 2014.11.09 17:31:00 - [38] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: [quote=Cody Sietz] As for the quote you posted: they are using hardeners and adhering to the waves of opportunity that CCP ascribed to vehicle modules: the AV wave of opportunity is to attack during the downtime of those modules. You mean the part of the game where the vehicle is a million miles away waiting for stuff to cooldown? The whole "waves of opportunity" thing doesnt apply to AV players, because their opportunity is just them dodging infantry while the vehicle is sitting around waiting for cooldowns. Once again let me explain how its incredibly dishonest to pretend AV vs. V is balanced when one party (Ill be explicit here and say that party is vehicles, since some vehicle drivers are too dim to understand that they have a massive speed advantage) gets to choose the terms of engagement in virtually every instance and the other party (AV) doesnt have enough firepower to realistically kill a vehicle pilot who is paying attention. The vehicles have waves of opportunity, the AV just sits there dodging infantry until they get back. So once again, AV sucks ass against infantry and vehicles, so why would anyone ever pick it other than to give their poor teamates half a chance to not get stomped by invincible killing machines? Buff AV so they can kill things, reduce vehicle costs so they can be used even when they are being killed, and you might have something that looks like balance.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 935	Posted - 2014.11.09 18:59:00 - [39] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: You mean the part of the game where the vehicle is a million miles away waiting for stuff to cooldown? their opportunity is just them dodging infantry while the vehicle is sitting around waiting for cooldowns. The vehicles have waves of opportunity, the AV just sits there dodging infantry until they get back. Considering that even with hardeners there is still significant damage to be dealt, causing the vehicles to either be cautious or outright retreat, depending on how effective you are. Also, it's not impossible to chase ground vehicles when they retreat: LAVs are more than capable of catching an HAV and unless there is a lot of terrain, you'll likely be able to deal plenty of damage. AV is not a purely defensive mechanism. Vesta Opalus wrote: So once again, AV sucks ass against infantry and vehicles, so why would anyone ever pick it other than to give their poor teamates half a chance to not get stomped by invincible killing machines? Buff AV so they can kill things, reduce vehicle costs so they can be used even when they are being killed, and you might have something that looks like balance. Well, considering that AV is plenty powerful against any vehicle that is even vaguely trying to help their team (and not just running away as soon as any AV appears) I don't see how you're useless,especially when a single damage reward is worth more than an infantry kill and is arguably easier (depending on the situation.) I wouldn't mind an AV buff/vehicle cost reduction, but I honesty don't think it's needed. I say this as a pilot but also as someone who uses swarms/FGs regularly. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1258	Posted - 2014.11.09 19:08:00 - [40] - Quote No they shouldn't 2.5 mil SP sink has to beat 25 mil SP sink apparently Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Gk0 Scout yay :)

Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 4472	Posted - 2014.11.09 19:30:00 - [41] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: Are what Wiyrkomis should be! whoever came up with the stats for it i thank thee. just a shame its an officer drop. Because Swarms need to be even more effective yes they do.. have you tried to take down a proto fit 25m+SP ADS with a competent pilot in a python which gets up to 80% resist to swarms? its a nightmare.. you barely scratch em and they can zip off as fast as all hell if they feel the threat is great enough If they're running hardeners on their shield vehicle and you're shooting them with an explosive AV weapon then you should be doing next to nothing! The issue is not swarms, it's the lack of anti-shield AV. Stop being scrubbly idiots who want herp-derp point and click swarms to be the be-all end-all AV weapon. Lobby harder for anti-shield weaponry. Except that the only shield AV are the Plasma Cannon and Flux Grenades...
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 935	Posted - 2014.11.09 19:37:00 - [42] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Except that the only shield AV are the Plasma Cannon and Flux Grenades... Indeed. Which is why we need racial parity ASAP. Neutralising the damage profiles of current AV weapons is not the answer. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.


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