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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 13 post(s) |
Prinny Waters
Immortal Guides
13
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Posted - 2014.11.09 03:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
Here's something I'd like to discuss; Giving Logistics suits the longest scan range.
Hear me out; one of the biggest flaws of Ewar right now is that the highest range suit, lowest profile suit, and the suit with the best precision are all on one type of suit and, currently, so much better at it that other suits need not apply. While many of the changes that have been proposed seek to bring narrow the gap and bring the other dropsuits into Ewar there will always be a problem if something so powerful is still dominated by one suit type.
My proposal is simple enough. Logistic suits will have their scan precision made weak enough that they cannot scan an assault suit without equipping at least one precision module, yet will out-range all other dropsuits to compensate. This will make it so that even non-Ewar Logistics will give their squad forewarning against any undampened (and probably full-tank) Heavy suits while requiring that Logi to have to run ferroscale and precision in order to find Assault suits.
If we can get the numbers right a Logistics suit would be able throw on a single complex range module to get a heads up on any HMG Sentinels or Assault suits who don't care about their profile. Logibro's willing to sacrifice everything for the team, however, can opt to walk around in cardboard armor so that their squadmates can turn corners and move on objectives without having to worry about an Assault suit with a shotgun waiting around every corner... Unless, of course, that Assault is willing to wear cheap paper machete in order to maintain the element of surprise....
Just another thought on how to make things interesting, mainly because there can never be enough Logibro's out and about. |
Prinny Waters
Immortal Guides
13
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Posted - 2014.11.09 13:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
I am confused by people claiming that giving armor/shield modules a profile increase would help Scouts... Last I checked, Scouts were inherently capable of finding anyone else and had to put precision to find other Scouts, meaning that they are already finding Assaults without issue as dampening an Assault to hide from Ewar Scouts isn't feasible when they're aiming for someone way sneakier than you. Since you don't really need to hide from anyone else as non-Scouts are blind Ewar as a whole was Scout-only.
The idea of profile signature increasing with plates is to make brick tank Scouts visible to any other Scout and potentially even make them visible to Assaults/Logis, making it possible for them to get a brief heads up before shotgun time. Chances are that the whole "Scouts find everyone but can't be found if they don't want to be found" thing isn't going to change but with these potential balancing changes they will be forced to choose between having heavy enough health to sprint in and murder a dude if caught or having low enough profile that they don't have to worry about an Assault with complex precision module turning around and saying "Hi" when they go in for the kill.
Also, making every dropsuit have a scan range of 15 or higher dramatically increases the usefulness of adding the profile penalty as maxing the scan range skill gives you a range of 22.5 without modules, which is at least enough warning that you should be able to face shotgunners before they fire (assuming you're not in a firefight). Non-CQC Scouts will be largely unaffected, since they aren't likely to want to get that close unless paid. |
Prinny Waters
Immortal Guides
22
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Posted - 2014.11.10 04:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
It probably hasn't been addressed as it forces cloaks rather than leaves them as an option. That is messed up in so many ways... Only having ewar while cloaked would also force a pretty hefty nerf on the cloaking field themselves as, currently, you'd be able to cloak and regain your vision so often that losing it would be temporary at best.
Plus, it means that cloakers have no incentive to do move around while uncloaked and full scans means they'll be able to see if it is safe to decloak. Sure, they will lose a bit of time hoping from cover to cover in order to keep up the cloak time they need to pounce/flee as necessary but the best you could hope for is the old advantage with a map travel time of a Logistics suit.
Also doesn't solve the whole "Killing people before the invisibility wears off" thing since they'd never want to be visible and could do all of their repositioning whilst invisible.... Which is why cloaked shotgun/nova knife is currently so ridiculous... |
Prinny Waters
Immortal Guides
22
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Posted - 2014.11.10 04:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
If the slot were truly dedicated to cloaks then I would be arbitrarily forced to use it. As I choose not use it and, thanks to ewar, am not being arbitrarily punished for it my quality of life is improved.
Scouts currently lose 85% of their scan range while cloaked, meaning that them not being able to be seen also means they no longer see around walls. When they are, themselves, extremely difficult to find they lose the ability to plan ahead as they must now hope they are safe when they decloak. Additionally, they now have to be concerned about someone outside of their field of vision covering whomever it is they are trying to murder as they cannot see anywhere else exclusively whilst cloaked.
As for the conflating of problems, the aforementioned range reduction was designed to lessen the insta-kill cloaking problem. The proposal to do the exact opposite and make cloaked scouts the only ones good at finding and murdering people would compound the problem and is therefore a very big part of the discussion that needs addressing. As only cloaked scouts will get ewar and ewar is essential to compensating for the difference in hp, dropsuit bonus. Do also keep in mind that Caldari and Amarr scouts would lose their race bonus if not cloaked.
When it comes to choice, do you really want people's options to be "Scout with cloak or something else?" Because making cloaks mandatory would turn non-cloaked scouts into Assaults whom miss out on their race bonuses and lose half of their health. If you really want scout speed put on a few kinetics and bask in how fast you are while still having health. |
Prinny Waters
Immortal Guides
22
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Posted - 2014.11.10 05:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
CeeJ Mantis wrote: As it stands, scouts can fight so effectively that they don't need cloak. They are entirely effective because they have the ability to see the battlefield clearly while engaging the enemy. Cloak now incentivizes scouts to use it as little as possible as their ewar is their greatest asset, and using it to hide in their blind spot is more effective than hoping to not see a shimmer. It is used as a defense tool for running away/hiding, or as an assaulting tool to run strait at an enemy. My proposal is aimed at making it for defense/intel gathering, which is ideally the scout's roll.
Essentially I want to make scouts be scouts. Scouts have INSANELY powerful ewar, and bonuses, and they arguably need these bonuses in order to make the role distinct and viable. However, I believe that putting a limiter on their ability will be the best way to let scouts be fun and different. The cloak is the most convenient way to do it as it only involves changing a few parameters. If cloak duration.recharge is too powerful, then those numbers can be changed (10/20/30 seconds, +50% recharge time, etc). The specific numbers are less important than the idea itself, and if you have a better idea, I'd like to hear it.
I can definitely agree that the core of the problem is that scouts get the best ewar by far and that, if they have been on Dust long enough to afford the scout ranks, arbitrarily ignore the fitting cost of a cloak.
Unfortunately, buffing cloaking fields to add scan range only worsens the problem as it adds incentive to cloaking yet does nothing to solve the issue of them being undetectable by non-scouts or able to murder everyone. As I don't see CCP having the ability to limit this blindness only to scouts who equip cloaks the end result will basically be the death of non-cloaked scouts, presumably with a large portion swapping to cloaking while the rest decide whether or not Dust still appeals to them in cloak-town.
If you won't accept me simply backing Rattati's proposed changes or my proposal to make pure Logistic suits the best at finding non-scouts then here is another idea: make cloaking flare up your profile instead of decreasing it while also toning down how much they reduce the cloak's fitting cost.
Increasing profile size on cloaks would leave non-cloaked scouts relatively viable, as the range and precision mods necessary for ewar to give a consistent edge would still require them to be frail, while asking cloakers a question; are you willing to have empty slots on your suit in exchange for your invisibility?
Keep in mind that a scanned cloaker isn't truly cloaked anymore. If we assume Rattati's range increase will go through, we can safely assume that more than just scout suits will start considering running ewar mods. This means that nonscouts would find them if they opt not to run dampeners, typically it would not be far enough out to actually gun them down with ease but it would give them a chance to fight after the scout has already closed most of the distance, meaning that the close range scout has range advantage while the other suit has health advantage.
Additionally, making cloaked suits have a hefty fitting price for scouts, as opposed to proto scouts being able to just put on the basic one without much consequence, we make it so that cloakers have to leave slots empty if they wish to dedicate themselves to stealth. If they don't want to light up like a christmas tree they have to stack dampeners, but if they put all their stuff into dampeners they won't have the fitting to both be immune to scanners and have a proto weapon, meaning the second they turn on cloak any nearby enemy scout knows it is meal time...
Choice, consequence, yadda yadda. Two people posted since I started typing this so gimme a sec to adjust. |
Prinny Waters
Immortal Guides
22
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Posted - 2014.11.10 05:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote: I was around when the cloak was first brought up. Scouts did not want to lose their nanite injectors or active scanners (for spin scanning) just for a cloaking device, they demanded a second equipment slot. You choose not to use a cloak on your scout because your scout is perfectly overpowered without it - you do not have to make a choice between combat ability and ewar wallhacks that is the problem - meaningfully addressing this would take away the ewar wallhacks while scouts are in combat mode and return the crazy ewar abilities only while in the non-combat cloak mode.
How do you not consider the ability to survive bullets separate from my combat ability? I can deal as much damage as I want and still fail to drop a person because they applied a bullet to my face and all those range modules don't protect me. If I were more difficult to spot than the other suits an assault tries to murder I would see your point but, without something making me harder to spot, the time advantage I get by knowing where to point my gun ought to be compared to the time advantage my opponent gets for requiring more bullets to die.
Whether or not those two are currently balanced is something I can't tell as this game bases balance on full 5 skilled veterans and my only 5's are in passive abilities. Get Rattati the magical baddass to weigh in on that if you want to know if scouts without cloaks are legitimately a problem.
MINA Longstrike wrote: This is not a meaningful disadvantage to scouts. They can get by without cloaks due to powerful ewar, in short if you are 'good' a cloak is a disadvantage to you, rather than being something the defines the role. A cloak hurts more than it helps at high skill levels. What Ceej's proposed change would do is force scouts to make a plan, attempt to execute, and then fade once executed so they can re-evaluate engagement options rather than being able to perform re-evaluations in the middle of combat.
I do not agree that being blind while invisible is meaningless. If you don't agree with that there's nothing for me to say as there isn't much to be added; you either value being able to see through walls or you don't.
MINA Longstrike wrote:
No, it wasn't it was to make scouts have a deficit, the delay before firing (which is being increased) is the attempted fix for 'insta-kill cloaking'. A scout should be able to find and murder people - they should be forced to re-evaluate after that single target. The could certainly be a minimum duration of cloaked time necessary before you get the ewar bonuses. In regards to 'taking away bonuses', no one needs the ability to see 40-70m+ with high precision at all times that is blatantly overpowered, it is compounded by allowing everyone in your squad to also see these people. As soon as spin scanning was fixed *everyone* jumped over to scouts (in particular the cal scout).
They attempted to nerf scout cloaking in two ways. The cloak delay was insufficient; the range reduction is debatable.
If scouts lose ewar unless they cloak then logistic suits and assault suits will do every single thing better than a scout without cloak. If they must cloak to acquire ewar and, upon cloaking, receive the exact same ewar they do now then cloaked scouts can just travel slower to let the cloak refresh and lose nothing but time. They will still be able to find everyone, they will still be just as lethal as before, they will still be the hardest suits to scan.
As for taking away bonuses, if the suit has less health than an assault, scans just as poorly as an assault, no bonuses for its race, and has no unique weapon types or slots, how is it not just a weaker assault suit?
MINA Longstrike wrote:
THATS THE ****ING POINT. People shouldn't be playing scouts as light assaults. They should be scouts who take targets of opportunity when available. Assaults should be the main "I want to ****ing shoot people" platform.
Your solution to scout light is for cloaked scouts to be unchanged while uncloaked lose everything. Not a solution mate.
Finally, can I get some civility for my mechanics discussions? Swearing at me really doesn't help make your point. |
Prinny Waters
Immortal Guides
22
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Posted - 2014.11.10 07:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
To CeeJ Mantis My apologies, I did not go back to read the post against as my focus was on tying ewar to cloaking. I don't really have an opinion on the changes to profile/scan you recommended as I don't know the current ewar formulas well enough.
For scan range, fifteen is kind of weak and ten renders ewar modules too investment heavy to be competitive for non-scouts. With a 5 in cal scout and the range skill that ten gets bumped up to 22.5m, one complex range modifier bringing it up to ~32.6 for a relatively solid build.
Scans are at their strongest in urban environments where your main concern is turning a corner and dying before getting the chance to run; thirty meters ought to work fine for a Cal scout but I'm not sure anyone else would be so keen on getting range modules. Since everyone else only gets 21 meters for one range modifier it becomes dubious as to whether or not they will have time to respond before shotgun/HMG annihilation, especially if you need one or more precision modules to matter.
I am definitely advocating 15 meters as the minimum on all suits, I'd recommend 17.5 on Scouts to give them a slight edge (albeit at the cost of making the number crunch even more of a *****...) and Logistics at 20.
Cal scout maxes at 57 before factoring in stacking penalty, Logistics can find Heavies with ease, and anyone can slap on one range and one precision to find lazy scouts at 32 meters or better. That ought to be enough to keep them out of insta-death range and, if not, they can add another range as the situation demands.
For the rest of the stuff discussed, I said scouts ought to sacrifice for their cloaks mate, not that they did. Making it so they make a full fit if they wanted a decent cloak would give them a penalty bigger than an equipment slot for their escape device/distance closer/dampener/ambush preventer. Might even be possible to leave uncloaked scouts alone....
Is there some new announcement I am missing? Not seeing anything about a full second delay on the announcement/events section.
To Blueprint for Murder Sorry to not respond sooner, getting distracted by monologues. I can't really say I have much hope as I don't see there being a serious possibility of cloaks being hard to fit. Since the only difference between a cloaked and uncloaked scout is that one equipment slot... Yeah, not looking good.
The only real assurance I have is that Rattati is a statistician and will no doubt factor in scouts without cloaks when making these changes. It might take a second or third patch for uncloaked scouts to get the kind of attention currently devoted to cloaked ones but statistics are math and math is legit. **** will get done, you can count on that.
General satement Anyone else feel cloaking as a method of dampening feels backwards? Ewar is the only true counter to cloaking, as relying on the shimmer only works if you don't have anything messing with your vision (for example, I wear contacts which impair my vision when worn long enough) and assumes that the scout is close enough for said shimmer to matter... Which is somewhat regularly close enough for shotgun sprinting...
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Prinny Waters
Immortal Guides
23
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Posted - 2014.11.10 15:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Most of this looks good, i like the proposed changes to the profiles of all the suits, and I like the normalization of scan radii idea to make range amps useful for all. I'm not sure how I feel about removing direction arrows to the minimap, but minor. I thought scanners were fine before the 1.9 changes As an assault with max precision and dampening, I don't like the idea of tanking mods adding to my profile because I fear using HP mods will negate my skill investments, and that an assault shouldn't be punished for using HP mods beyond the existing penalties, but hopefully the profile debuffs will be minor for these modules. Also, will ferroscale and reactive plates also have the debuff?
I haven't seen anything definitive about ferroscale or reactive plates ignoring the profile increase but, if this thread is any indication, most people support them being without penalty.
As for the profile increase on hp modules, I don't think it will negatively impact assault suits too much because scouts and Gallente Logi scanners are probably still going to require heavy dampening to avoid, meaning you probably won't have too much room for hp if that is your goal and are unlikely to be able to avoid being scanned if they go full force regardless.
Other assaults and logistic suits spotting you will become a concern, yes, but anyone wanting to participate in ewar is going to equip at least one range module if they want to turn corners without fear of being in HMG kil lrange. Anyone willing to fit a dampener to ignore lazy assault/logistics should be even footing.
If heavy dampening becomes the meta, though, you'll be running a single complex module to my four militia and probably come out ahead due to the profile skill. Just throwing that out there.
We should totally get a Quafe soda mascot hologram.
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Prinny Waters
Immortal Guides
23
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Posted - 2014.11.10 16:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
A form of equipment which gives the user a sudden and drastic increase to their ewar range at the expense of having to have it out in order to benefit it (removing their ability to fight) is pretty damn sweet. That same module also turning them invisible? Nope, not the answer, cloaks already powerful enough from just making it safer to travel.
If the proposed delay increase brings their insta-kill potential down enough then they're still going to be viable even if they keep their current ewar blindness while cloaked.
Separate this active ewar equipment from cloaking fields and you have a pretty solid solution. Other suits still ought to be able to use it, as limiting it to scouts serves only to reinforce scout-only ewar, but the incentive for scouts to use it would be that, as it is an upgrade to your scan range rather than a unique type of scan, you would be using your own precision ranking.
Since scouts are the uncontested kings of precision they would still be numero uno at ewar because even if a Logi can get a decent scan range/precision going on there are still going to be scouts they can't find (and, unlike an active scanner, passive scanning wouldn't let you know you failed to find them) that a Cal scout could find.
Not sure if the range enhancing equipment (someone think of a witty way to include the word Qaufe in its name for me please) should come at the expense of raising your profile to heavy levels to compensate for all that squad vision but I'm sure once everyone gets past trying out the new thing we'll be able to fine tune it. It is definitely too powerful to be without cost but only time will tell if losing a gun/rep tool if you wanted to keep it up during a firefight was a good or bad trade.
Huh... Realized they would be a neat way to add squad-only scanners....
We should totally get a Quafe soda mascot hologram.
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