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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 13 post(s) |
CeeJ Mantis
Mantodea MC
78
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Posted - 2014.11.06 08:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
Increase scout scanning profile to 40db. (And reduce the effectiveness of the amarr scout skill so that it isn't insanely broken with the new profile.
Adjust Active scanners so that scouts can't be scanned by basic scanners, but can by advanced and proto. Maybe gal/cal can beat advanced only with max passive skills. Tune the focused scanner since scouts would have a higher base profile.
Rather than passive modules that can grant permanent boons when equipped, maybe scouts rely on a system where low profiles have to be turned on or off. Then your stealth is limited rather than something you always have until someone protos up their scanning. Maybe using cloak fields, but with longer cooldowns?
Give Logis better EWAR so they can be a different kind of support. One that can put EWAR modules on to protect their nearby squadmates from unseen threats. Perhaps 20m range, or same scanning precision as a scout's profile.
Rather than give everyone 15m range, lower the Skill and module effectiveness. 5% per level for the skill instead of 10. Scouts keep their 20m range, and everyone else gets bumped to 15m. Make the modules give Basic 25%, Enhanced 30%, Proto 35%. Or change the numbers so that stacking modules is worth the slot, but not so great that you become a radar tower if your scout fills it's low slots.
Essentially, use moderation to balance EWAR across all the suits. Maybe only 5bd difference between adjacent suit classes (light, medium, heavy).
Ideally scouts should be intel gathers/hackers with some ability to flank and deploy uplinks and such. They provide scans without alerting the enemy, and their stealth should be notable, but temporary.
These are just my ideas as someone who loves scouts but doesn't like playing them recently as all the ones I see are twitchy riflers, or shotgun/RE guys, and it feels so cheap and easy. I'd like to see them be sneaky assassins/intel gatherers/saboteurs instead of light assaults you can't see. I want the scout roll to be fun, and still have some versitility and not end up where I'm expected to run a proto suit with 4 ewar mods minimum to do my roll, or where putting on 1 or 2 ehp extentions (not 4) to avoid getting killed immediately when spotted costs me my ability to do my roll nicely.
I'm open to more ideas.
Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
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CeeJ Mantis
Mantodea MC
80
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Posted - 2014.11.09 02:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
I came up with an idea. One of the problems with scouts is that their ewar is so good, and it is always on. I made a post about how I disliked the idea of cloak fields reducing scan range as it cancels out your ewar skills and mods to have it active. THis means you're less likely to use them, and more likely to brick out instead of use things they get bonuses to. What if instead things went like this:
1. Take scout's base ewar range to 10, and increase their profile to 40db.
2. Add a multiplier to scanning range while cloaked, and add a minimum cloak duration (maybe 3 seconds).
3. (optional) Increase cloak dampening by 5% per level
This gives scouts 2 modes. Combat ready and relatively blind, and defenseless ewar mode. You can cloak up to gather information, but to engage an enemy you make yourself blind. A minimum cloak duration prevents quick activation so you can't just get quick pulses of intel, and it encourages use of better cloak fields for scouting. You can possibly scale ewar range bonus to equipment tier, or add different types of cloaks with different modifiers to duration, range, dampening, cooldown etc.
In short, scouts will be encouraged to use their scout cloak field bonus. They can provide intel and be stealthy (what scouts want) but only temporarily. Any scout that wants to be a stealthy brawler can try, but they won't have the massive ewar stats while doing it.
Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
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CeeJ Mantis
Mantodea MC
81
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Posted - 2014.11.09 02:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:CeeJ Mantis wrote:I came up with an idea. One of the problems with scouts is that their ewar is so good, and it is always on. I made a post about how I disliked the idea of cloak fields reducing scan range as it cancels out your ewar skills and mods to have it active. THis means you're less likely to use them, and more likely to brick out instead of use things they get bonuses to. What if instead things went like this:
1. Take scout's base ewar range to 10, and increase their profile to 40db.
2. Add a multiplier to scanning range while cloaked, and add a minimum cloak duration (maybe 3 seconds).
3. (optional) Increase cloak dampening by 5% per level
This gives scouts 2 modes. Combat ready and relatively blind, and defenseless ewar mode. You can cloak up to gather information, but to engage an enemy you make yourself blind. A minimum cloak duration prevents quick activation so you can't just get quick pulses of intel, and it encourages use of better cloak fields for scouting. You can possibly scale ewar range bonus to equipment tier, or add different types of cloaks with different modifiers to duration, range, dampening, cooldown etc.
In short, scouts will be encouraged to use their scout cloak field bonus. They can provide intel and be stealthy (what scouts want) but only temporarily. Any scout that wants to be a stealthy brawler can try, but they won't have the massive ewar stats while doing it. Certainly an interesting idea, and I am sure we could work on it to make it awesome however, what about us scouts that do not use a cloak? Are you forcing all scouts to be cloakers or is this to only apply when a cloak is fitted? I dislike being forced to use a cloak, it should be a choice just like any piece of equipment is.
They can use ewar mods like everyone else and get bonues. Perhaps a 15m radius with a +33% bonus instead. Maybe adjusted cloak stats for an optimum balance. Mostly, I think this idea takes away scout omnipotence and encourages using your bonus for scouting. I'm all up for improving it so that more scout play styles are welcome and valid.
Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
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CeeJ Mantis
Mantodea MC
81
|
Posted - 2014.11.09 02:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:CeeJ Mantis wrote:I came up with an idea. One of the problems with scouts is that their ewar is so good, and it is always on. I made a post about how I disliked the idea of cloak fields reducing scan range as it cancels out your ewar skills and mods to have it active. THis means you're less likely to use them, and more likely to brick out instead of use things they get bonuses to. What if instead things went like this:
1. Take scout's base ewar range to 10, and increase their profile to 40db.
2. Add a multiplier to scanning range while cloaked, and add a minimum cloak duration (maybe 3 seconds).
3. (optional) Increase cloak dampening by 5% per level
This gives scouts 2 modes. Combat ready and relatively blind, and defenseless ewar mode. You can cloak up to gather information, but to engage an enemy you make yourself blind. A minimum cloak duration prevents quick activation so you can't just get quick pulses of intel, and it encourages use of better cloak fields for scouting. You can possibly scale ewar range bonus to equipment tier, or add different types of cloaks with different modifiers to duration, range, dampening, cooldown etc.
In short, scouts will be encouraged to use their scout cloak field bonus. They can provide intel and be stealthy (what scouts want) but only temporarily. Any scout that wants to be a stealthy brawler can try, but they won't have the massive ewar stats while doing it. Certainly an interesting idea, and I am sure we could work on it to make it awesome however, what about us scouts that do not use a cloak? Are you forcing all scouts to be cloakers or is this to only apply when a cloak is fitted? I dislike being forced to use a cloak, it should be a choice just like any piece of equipment is.
Or perhaps you can think of it like off-racial equipment on a logi. Still very useful, but not optimal. I mostly wanna encourage the use of cloak as it is a defining feature of scouts, but many would prefer not to bother with it. I want it to be something (as you get a bonus with it) that you want to put on. Like a cal logi and nanohives, or a rep tool on a min logi.
Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
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CeeJ Mantis
Mantodea MC
84
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Posted - 2014.11.10 03:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
CeeJ Mantis wrote:I came up with an idea. One of the problems with scouts is that their ewar is so good, and it is always on. I made a post about how I disliked the idea of cloak fields reducing scan range as it cancels out your ewar skills and mods to have it active. THis means you're less likely to use them, and more likely to brick out instead of use things they get bonuses to. What if instead things went like this:
1. Take scout's base ewar range to 10m, and increase their profile to 40db.
2. Add a multiplier to scanning range while cloaked, and add a minimum cloak duration (maybe 3 seconds).
3. (optional) Increase cloak dampening by 5% per tier (or add +1% cloak field dampening per level of the cloak field skill)
This gives scouts 2 modes. Combat ready with relatively poor ewar, and defenseless, high ewar mode. You can cloak up to gather information, but to engage an enemy you loose ewar effectiveness. A minimum cloak duration prevents quick activation so you can't just get quick pulses of intel, and it encourages use of better cloak fields for scouting. You can possibly scale ewar range bonus to equipment tier, or add different types of cloaks with different modifiers to duration, range, dampening, cooldown etc.
In short, scouts will be encouraged to use their scout cloak field bonus. They can provide intel and be stealthy (what scouts want) but only temporarily. Any scout that wants to be a stealthy brawler can try, but they won't have the massive ewar stats while doing it.
I've seen no comments on this idea. I really want to try to flesh this out as it seems like a good solution to the scout problem that doesn't involve loads of ewar changes, and keeps to the idea of encourageing use of certain things, rather than discouraging use of things.
Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
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CeeJ Mantis
Mantodea MC
85
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Posted - 2014.11.10 04:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Prinny Waters wrote:It probably hasn't been addressed as it forces cloaks rather than leaves them as an option. That is messed up in so many ways... Only having ewar while cloaked would also force a pretty hefty nerf on the cloaking field themselves as, currently, you'd be able to cloak and regain your vision so often that losing it would be temporary at best.
Plus, it means that cloakers have no incentive to do move around while uncloaked and full scans means they'll be able to see if it is safe to decloak. Sure, they will lose a bit of time hoping from cover to cover in order to keep up the cloak time they need to pounce/flee as necessary but the best you could hope for is the old advantage with a map travel time of a Logistics suit.
Also doesn't solve the whole "Killing people before the invisibility wears off" thing since they'd never want to be visible and could do all of their repositioning whilst invisible.... Which is why cloaked shotgun/nova knife is currently so ridiculous...
As it stands, scouts can fight so effectively that they don't need cloak. They are entirely effective because they have the ability to see the battlefield clearly while engaging the enemy. Cloak now incentivizes scouts to use it as little as possible as their ewar is their greatest asset, and using it to hide in their blind spot is more effective than hoping to not see a shimmer. It is used as a defense tool for running away/hiding, or as an assaulting tool to run strait at an enemy. My proposal is aimed at making it for defense/intel gathering, which is ideally the scout's roll.
Essentially I want to make scouts be scouts. Scouts have INSANELY powerful ewar, and bonuses, and they arguably need these bonuses in order to make the role distinct and viable. However, I believe that putting a limiter on their ability will be the best way to let scouts be fun and different. The cloak is the most convenient way to do it as it only involves changing a few parameters. If cloak duration/recharge is too powerful, then those numbers can be changed (10/20/30 seconds, +50% recharge time, etc). The specific numbers are less important than the idea itself, and if you have a better idea, I'd like to hear it.
Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
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CeeJ Mantis
Mantodea MC
86
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Posted - 2014.11.10 06:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
Prinny Waters wrote:CeeJ Mantis wrote:
As it stands, scouts can fight so effectively that they don't need cloak. They are entirely effective because they have the ability to see the battlefield clearly while engaging the enemy. Cloak now incentivizes scouts to use it as little as possible as their ewar is their greatest asset, and using it to hide in their blind spot is more effective than hoping to not see a shimmer. It is used as a defense tool for running away/hiding, or as an assaulting tool to run strait at an enemy. My proposal is aimed at making it for defense/intel gathering, which is ideally the scout's roll.
Essentially I want to make scouts be scouts. Scouts have INSANELY powerful ewar, and bonuses, and they arguably need these bonuses in order to make the role distinct and viable. However, I believe that putting a limiter on their ability will be the best way to let scouts be fun and different. The cloak is the most convenient way to do it as it only involves changing a few parameters. If cloak duration.recharge is too powerful, then those numbers can be changed (10/20/30 seconds, +50% recharge time, etc). The specific numbers are less important than the idea itself, and if you have a better idea, I'd like to hear it.
I can definitely agree that the core of the problem is that scouts get the best ewar by far and that, if they have been on Dust long enough to afford the scout ranks, arbitrarily ignore the fitting cost of a cloak. Unfortunately, buffing cloaking fields to add scan range only worsens the problem as it adds incentive to cloaking yet does nothing to solve the issue of them being undetectable by non-scouts or able to murder everyone. As I don't see CCP having the ability to limit this blindness only to scouts who equip cloaks the end result will basically be the death of non-cloaked scouts, presumably with a large portion swapping to cloaking while the rest decide whether or not Dust still appeals to them in cloak-town. If you won't accept me simply backing Rattati's proposed changes or my proposal to make pure Logistic suits the best at finding non-scouts then here is another idea: make cloaking flare up your profile instead of decreasing it while also toning down how much they reduce the cloak's fitting cost. Increasing profile size on cloaks would leave non-cloaked scouts relatively viable, as the range and precision mods necessary for ewar to give a consistent edge would still require them to be frail, while asking cloakers a question; are you willing to have empty slots on your suit in exchange for your invisibility? Keep in mind that a scanned cloaker isn't truly cloaked anymore. If we assume Rattati's range increase will go through, we can safely assume that more than just scout suits will start considering running ewar mods. This means that nonscouts would find them if they opt not to run dampeners, typically it would not be far enough out to actually gun them down with ease but it would give them a chance to fight after the scout has already closed most of the distance, meaning that the close range scout has range advantage while the other suit has health advantage. Additionally, making cloaked suits have a hefty fitting price for scouts, as opposed to proto scouts being able to just put on the basic one without much consequence, we make it so that cloakers have to leave slots empty if they wish to dedicate themselves to stealth. If they don't want to light up like a christmas tree they have to stack dampeners, but if they put all their stuff into dampeners they won't have the fitting to both be immune to scanners and have a proto weapon, meaning the second they turn on cloak any nearby enemy scout knows it is meal time... Choice, consequence, yadda yadda. Two people posted since I started typing this so gimme a sec to adjust.
I have a proto scout with all proto mods including the cloak field, and have 20cpu and 26pg to spare. I can fit a cloak comfortably on all my scouts except the PLC scout. (4 ewar mods and PLC destroys my CPU even with max fitting skills.) Even then, I can fit an advanced cloak on any suit. It's entirely doable. Maybe you need to tone down your armor plates
1. I said increase the scouts profile to 40db. 5 higher than now.
2. I said decrease the range to 10m.
This means logis, with their 15m range will have the highest range, and second highest scanning. Scouts can hide by putting on mods, or cloaking. 2 Precision amps on a logi would be powerful, and some range would allow them to see scouts who aren't committed to stealth.
The decloak delay is being changed to 1 sec on Tuesday. If that is not enough, then it can go higher. This isn't the end all be all fix by just changing cloak. Amarr scout skill would need to be toned down a tad, and the duvolle focused scanner would need to go up by 1 or 2 DB to account for the ewar changes (unless we improve cloak dampening by 5% as suggested)
Cal and Amarr scouts will still have bonuses that apply, but a cloak is needed to maximize them. Assault scouts can still fight, but they trade off HP and slots for better ewar (to a lesser degree than now). However, back to the topic at hand.
The premise is to make the Cloak Field a piece of equipment that scouts use to gain good ewar, but since it has a timer, and you can't fight while cloaked, it can be tuned to limit scouts so they aren't overpowered. I think this is the direction we should go with this, rather than putting penalties on fitting armor, or the current cloak penalty that discourages it's use. If they wanna buff ewar range on other suits, fine. Adjusting scan profiles is fine. Fixing scanners, also fine (not a fan of scanning loosing direction indicators as it kinda defeats the point of using that information to act efficiently as you can't tell when an enemy is distracted unless you were looking at them). I want to see ewar be good, and scouts be fun and balanced.
Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
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CeeJ Mantis
Mantodea MC
86
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Posted - 2014.11.10 16:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
Prinny Waters wrote:To CeeJ Mantis
My apologies, I did not go back to read the post against as my focus was on tying ewar to cloaking. I don't really have an opinion on the changes to profile/scan you recommended as I don't know the current ewar formulas well enough.
For scan range, fifteen is kind of weak and ten renders ewar modules too investment heavy to be competitive for non-scouts. With a 5 in cal scout and the range skill that ten gets bumped up to 22.5m, one complex range modifier bringing it up to ~32.6 for a relatively solid build.
Scans are at their strongest in urban environments where your main concern is turning a corner and dying before getting the chance to run; thirty meters ought to work fine for a Cal scout but I'm not sure anyone else would be so keen on getting range modules. Since everyone else only gets 21 meters for one range modifier it becomes dubious as to whether or not they will have time to respond before shotgun/HMG annihilation, especially if you need one or more precision modules to matter.
I am definitely advocating 15 meters as the minimum on all suits, I'd recommend 17.5 on Scouts to give them a slight edge (albeit at the cost of making the number crunch even more of a *****...) and Logistics at 20.
Cal scout maxes at 57 before factoring in stacking penalty, Logistics can find Heavies with ease, and anyone can slap on one range and one precision to find lazy scouts at 32 meters or better. That ought to be enough to keep them out of insta-death range and, if not, they can add another range as the situation demands.
For the rest of the stuff discussed, I said scouts ought to sacrifice for their cloaks mate, not that they did. Making it so they make a full fit if they wanted a decent cloak would give them a penalty bigger than an equipment slot for their escape device/distance closer/dampener/ambush preventer. Might even be possible to leave uncloaked scouts alone....
Is there some new announcement I am missing? Not seeing anything about a full second delay on the announcement/events section.
General satement
Anyone else feel cloaking as a method of dampening feels backwards? Ewar is the only true counter to cloaking, as relying on the shimmer only works if you don't have anything messing with your vision (for example, I wear contacts which impair my vision when worn long enough) and assumes that the scout is close enough for said shimmer to matter... Which is somewhat regularly close enough for shotgun sprinting...
Rattati mentioned it in his post about redoing the balance hotfix. At least the past about decloak delay being increased.
As far as scouts and cloaks go, I feel that currently their ability to scan rooms is too good to be always active. However, if scouts can't scan things well then, then their inherent stealth is not enough to define their roll. I.really.do think that activating a "scouting mode" that gives you max ewar is a good way to solve this issue. You can cloak when you arrive at an area. This allows you to assess your situation and provide intel for your squad.when the time is right, you can make your move on a weakened/vulnerable/high priority target. Doing so makes you vulnerable though, so you might only wanna take on one or two targets before falling back to reassess the situation. We're there a 3 second minimum cloak duration, then you'd have to commit to that vulnerability to gain your excellent benefits
Essentially, this came from an analysis of what "scout-like" rolls in other games do. They tend to be fast, lightly armored, and provide intel, with limited direct combat ability, but are very capable of taking out targets from a distance, or up close (snipers/knifers). I don't think scouts should be so restricted, but a toggled ability that allows them to embody the scouting aspects of scouts, while maintaining their vulnerability, but allows their skills to be used for their assassination of weak targets is a great way to encourage scouts to fit their roll on the battlefield.
Rattati mentioned how Heavies need more HMG heat buildup as that would moderate their abilities so they ate less good in some situations. I think that my cloak field based proposal the easiest way to give scouts the tools they need for their roll, while providing a weakness they currently lack. Skilled scouts can adapt quickly, and ones who rely too heavily on the insane advantages of their class's strength to get by will fall away to a roll more suited to them, or better yet, learn to be better players.
This of course assumes that the decloak delay is long enough to stop current cloak abuse, but that needs to be addressed regardless of whether or not this plan is implemented. With my provided numbers, Logistics will have enough range to do passive ewar effectively, and active scanners will be encouraged for those who want to be able to have ewar, and combat prowess.
Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
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CeeJ Mantis
Mantodea MC
86
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Posted - 2014.11.10 16:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
Blueprint For Murder wrote:I assure you the delay is not enough it could be 3 seconds and it still wouldn't matter you can't see the scout so combat starts when he chooses and you will be dead before you can react.
So then how would you fix the issue? It's easy to tell people that they ate wrong. Let's instead try to solve this problem, or if you believe it cannot be solved, explain why.
Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
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