|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 13 post(s) |
Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
7025
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 08:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is my worst nightmare. As if I needed -more- of a reason not to want to run Gallente Logi as it is there are further nerfs being applied? Because we added team-shared vision on them? It's not like the Gal Logi is getting any benefit out of it other then the pure satisfaction that he scanned someone down, there isn't any WP benefit for it and (as has been stated) that isn't something that is likely to change.
Reducing the range on the active scanners would murder their use and everyone would just start spamming spy-links instead. 50% reduction is a sledgehammer when a scalpel is needed. We're talking 50m on most scanners (30m on the proximity scanner!!), that's beneath the -optimal range- of a rail-rifle and just outside the optimal of an Assault Rifle. At those ranges, you've either already seen them physically or they're already shooting at you.
Few other points:
All scouts have the capability to get under a Gal Logi's Focused scanners, let alone any of the others. Gal Assault with two complex profile dampeners (I have this exact fit) can get under most scans reliably. If you're being scanned, it's probably because you're not bothering to dampen at all.
Adding profile increase to extenders/plates is contradictory to reducing profile on some suits. Which problem are we trying to solve here?
15m (22.5m) Passive Range has the exact same problem as 10m passive range and the exact same problem with reducing Active Scanner range. At that range, you're already being shot.
Reducing scan duration: Blah, the angles are already abyssmal and the current duration doesn't allow for a much better.
Or if you meant Visibility Duration: Why? Is 5 seconds (CreoDron Active Scanner) honestly too long?
Gal/Logi Cloak/Scout seriously needs an overhaul. It -cannot- be a one or the other scenario. Having situations that are so binary, where either a Scout can always have the capability to not be scanned or always will be scanned no matter what is terrible gameplay.
Focused Scanner. 18 PG, 60 degree scan angle, 5 second visibility, and a 40 second cooldown are all the reasons I need to tell you why this isn't overpowered even at the team level and that's not even mentioning the binary situation above.
Snapshot scanners are a terrible idea because it's useless information; it tells you where they were when Scout passive scans can tell you where they -are-. This change would annihilate their use as well.
The gist here is that it cannot be binary and there always has to be a level of uncertainty. It should -not- be a 100% 'you will be scanned' or 100% 'you defeated the scanner' situation and I think we need to think outside of the box on how to arrive at that solution. (((EDIT: Ignore this, lost train of thought mid-way through paragraph:The easiest solution to this is to exaggerate the numbers and make them more profound (0-100 range instead of 15 - 60).))) Team Variant Active Scanners with higher precision (60/55/50) separate of Squad Scanners which retain their current viability.
EWAR Ideas here seem to be swayed in the wrong direction, IMO. Every single suggestion here is a stealth buff to Scouts.
Legion Transparency
Me and My Girl
|
Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
7026
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 09:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
Mossellia Delt wrote:Go slow Rattati
Try the added profile to plates and extenders before anything else.
Also, please look into codebreakers, the SP value and the efficacy bonus.
Now you've got me second guessing what he meant by that. Are we -adding- to the Profile with Plates/Extenders (as in, 50db base + one plate = 55db) or are we adding more to the -STEALTH- of profile (as in, 50db + one plate = 45db)
Legion Transparency
Me and My Girl
|
Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
7026
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 09:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
But they're not -going- to run fully dampened Scouts. They have no reason to when you apply changes like reduction to scan duration/scan range/etc. Think about it for a second... A Gal Logi with a Focused Scanner is what it takes to force a scout into prof damp mode; but the problem is that he can only do it for 5 seconds (or less, depending on these changes) and then he has to wait 40 seconds for the cool-down. Sure, there's an edge case for overlapping Gal Logi's but what does your data say about the spawn ratio of Duvolle Focused Active Scanners lately? I use them and I find them insanely difficult to deal with because I'm constantly having to flip through them, which means less time with a weapon in my hand to defend myself or my team.
And sure, two damps is a hefty demand but if Assaults suddenly can start beating Prototype Active Scanners on a Gal Logi with just -one- dampener, my prediction is that the Gal Logi is down and out in any competitive play. Assaults don't need lower profile to make them competitive slayers and you're likely not going to encourage people into the Assault-Slayer role by changing that when Scouts are inherently better at it as is.
As far as the Snapshot Scanners, from what I am to understand, it's scanning the enemy and then having their icon stay in place instead of following them like it does now. Which is bad because, as I explained, Passive Scans would -immediately- take priority because they would actively follow the target instead of revealing where he was 5 seconds (or less, based on what happens with thread) ago.
What I meant by that last sentence is that all of these changes (apart from the increased profile on plates/extenders) looks like a suggestion to nerf Active Scanners, which by default means that we have less tools to actively find problem Scouts. A stealth buff, if you will. If we can't change the scan mechanics then someone has to bite the bullet and it looks like it's the Gal Logi... and that expressly disappoints me.
Legion Transparency
Me and My Girl
|
Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
7026
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 09:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:But they're not -going- to run fully dampened Scouts. They have no reason to when you apply changes like reduction to scan duration/scan range/etc. Think about it for a second... A Gal Logi with a Focused Scanner is what it takes to force a scout into prof damp mode; but the problem is that he can only do it for 5 seconds (or less, depending on these changes) and then he has to wait 40 seconds for the cool-down. Sure, there's an edge case for overlapping Gal Logi's but what does your data say about the spawn ratio of Duvolle Focused Active Scanners lately? I use them and I find them insanely difficult to deal with because I'm constantly having to flip through them, which means less time with a weapon in my hand to defend myself or my team. And sure, two damps is a hefty demand but if Assaults suddenly can start beating Prototype Active Scanners on a Gal Logi with just -one- dampener, my prediction is that the Gal Logi is down and out in any competitive play. Assaults don't need lower profile to make them competitive slayers and you're likely not going to encourage people into the Assault-Slayer role by changing that when Scouts are inherently better at it as is. As far as the Snapshot Scanners, from what I am to understand, it's scanning the enemy and then having their icon stay in place instead of following them like it does now. Which is bad because, as I explained, Passive Scans would -immediately- take priority because they would actively follow the target instead of revealing where he was 5 seconds (or less, based on what happens with thread) ago. What I meant by that last sentence is that all of these changes (apart from the increased profile on plates/extenders) looks like a suggestion to nerf Active Scanners, which by default means that we have less tools to actively find problem Scouts. A stealth buff, if you will. If we can't change the scan mechanics then someone has to bite the bullet and it looks like it's the Gal Logi... and that expressly disappoints me. Making the Focused scanner better needs to come with squad only. We knew bringing back shared team scans would shake up the meta, and we are trying to react to everyone being permascanned. Please be patient and try to work with us on a better experience. The main point is to reduce the difference between max damp and no damp, and allow players to customize their EWAR capabilities. I would love to run a single damp, and know I am avoiding 50% of lazy scans. PC is just another story. Everyone is running max specialization and it always becomes binary. 1% advantage means everyone uses it, not just a few. That's just how hardcore competition is, in any game.
Edited my above post, btw.
I understand that you want me to be patient but I'm a player who has run Gal Assault/Logi for a -long- time now and I'm extremely worried about the consequences that this is going to have. I would much rather a reversion of the team shared scans to only squad shared if it meant to avoid any unnecessary hamstringing of the Gal Logi's role.
On the other side of the fence, I don't see much benefit for my Assault either. I'd get marginally better defense by having to fit less profile but if the plate/extender profile increase goes with that I might just be in same boat as before. The benefits of a profile dampener would have to outweigh the offset of the plates but even then shield tankers would be better off because they'd be better equipped to fit profile dampeners.
Legion Transparency
Me and My Girl
|
Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
7028
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 09:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Cat Merc wrote:CCP Rattati, I think rather that forcing us to either damp or scan by role, you should instead look at tanks.
Since precision enhancers take up high slots, and damps take low slots, in each role some races will be at a clear disadvantage with their choice of tank. Armor Assaults will be at a disadvantage trying to hide, shield Logis will be at a disadvantage trying to scan, etc'.
But if you look at tanks... Since you normalized the range of all suits to 15m, that means with scanning V I could get 21m of range without fitting range amps. That means I have a higher incentive to fit precision enhancers than I did before, creating a use for an otherwise useless module for Gallente Assaults. You could even move range amps to high slots, but I'm not sure what that would do to scouts and their meta. If you incentivize it even further by making the EWAR bonuses race specific rather than role specific (Amarr -5 precision, Gallente +5m range, Caldari and Minmatar -5 profile), then that would be even better.
This would mean that Caldari and Minmatar Assaults would often damp, while Gallente and Amarr Assaults would often be scanning, creating a hunter/hunted cycle with EWAR without even having scouts or scanners involved. I though Gallente favored dampening :o
In Eve Online they do, but they dampen -OTHER SHIPS- to keep them from being able to lock onto them.
Legion Transparency
Me and My Girl
|
Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
7031
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 10:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
The plate sig penalty is aimed at scouts, primarily, and most of these are still just ideas.
But it's more like a shotgun aimed at scouts that will murder everybody else within range.
Hah. Sawed Off Signature Shotgun. I like the allegory.
Legion Transparency
Me and My Girl
|
Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
7033
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 11:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vyzion Eyri wrote:01010100011010000110010100100000011000100110100101101110011000010111001001111001001000000110100101101110001000000111010001101000011010010111001100100000011101000110100001110010011001010110000101100100001000000110100101110011001000000111010001101111011011110010000001100100011000010110110101101110001000000110100001101001011001110110100000100001
God damnit, guys, synonyms. Dual nature. Two-sided nature. Duality. Black and white. It just makes it look like you're hoping on a bandwagon when you spew "binary" 514 times in a single post, like the times when we had people talking about "TTK" as if they knew what it really meant.
Wish I could say something on-topic, but I don't play enough anymore to contribute anything more meaningful without making a fool of myself.
S'the truth though. EWAR -IS- Binary, you are either scanned or you're not scanned. The one system in Dust 514 we absolutely need to have some level of uncertainty is the one system that lacks it. Unfortunate as it may be and as much as I like to argue with him (I swear I'm going to reimburse him in beer if he goes to Fanfest) CCP Rattati is right in that it can't be changed and we need to look for ways to make the system practical with that constriction.
Though, that being said, I've a conflict of interest because I only know what it's like to be on my side of the EWAR game and that's scanning people down. Can't take back what I've already said though. I can just apologize for it, STFU, and move on.
Legion Transparency
Me and My Girl
|
|
|
|