DUST Search - Sniper Scope distances

Ubuu de Reide wrote:

Thokk Nightshade wrote:

I used to be one of those like you, spouting off real world statistics and arguing about the 1000 Meter sniper shots and we are in the future so it should be even better. Then I came to a realization; this is a video game, and if that was put into place, it would completely suck the fun and enjoyment out of 80% of the playerbase because at that point, there would be ABSOLUTELY no way to counteract that..

Video games don't use real world physics. They are manipulated to fit the needs of the game mechanics. This is why scouts can run forever in a day and can jump the equivalent of 10 meters when a Sentinel is slow as molasses and can't jump over a fallen branch (ya know, if there were trees).

Yea, I understand that this and IGÇÖm probably going to have to settle for the childish explanation that is a video-game. I thought we were trying to aspire for a bit more in the Dust universe, but that explanation is the perfect cop-out for CCP since they are prone to folding under the pressure of whiney forum users complaining about snipers GÇ£ruiningGÇ¥ the game for them [ which I acknowledge that I am doing now], but IGÇÖm making this an issue in the hopes that they reverse their HUGE nerf of the effective sniper scope kill ranges GÇô because honestly GÇô it wasnGÇÖt broken before.

Imp Smash wrote:

You have never fired a sniper rifle have you. Trust me -- they really don't work like they do in Dust....

IGÇÖm not going to get into a pee-pee measuring contest with you, but IGÇÖve fired a wide range of weapons and IGÇÖm VERY familiar with sniper rifle behavior.

Imp Smash wrote:

But let's step outside of the realism of range argument and look at the discussion as a whole.

Yes -- even by modern standards 400 meters isn't THAT far. But we have to consider how many real world physics are suspended. Take stamina -- those targets that are running, jumping and zigzagging can only do so for so long. But in real life a soldier, in a full kit (which is very VERY heavy), completely lacking the powered assisted movement that clone suits offer, can sprint much farther much longer and jump many more times before they can't anymore.

To make gameplay viable CCP created a stamina mechanic that violates how humans actually work practically. Would you want to snipe targets when they can all sprint, jump, etc CONSTANTLY as much as they please?

Basically we have a few suspended reality mechanics in this game. Changing reality mechanics for just ONE class while leaving everyone else limited by suspended reality makes that one class have an unfair advantage. The red line is a perfect example. The fact you have magic forcefield is absolutely silly in terms of realism. So asking for a realistic change for your offense while maintaining your magicpants defense is, of course, a bit unfair. Or the fact only your eyes have to poke over a hill to snipe -- and not the WHOLE GUN like in real life.

The range is the primary issue here GÇô you canGÇÖt side-step it. Modern rifles have an effective kill range of 800+m.. Dust takes place roughly 20,000 years IN THE FUTURE!?!!1!1!ONE

There are very few items in dust that require the user to suspend belief GÇô which I like. I personally donGÇÖt have an issue with the stamina physics, because it seems realistic given the universe (this could and should be its own topic), because again GÇô we justify shields, we justify ranges GÇô justifying stamina in a suit 20k in the future doesnGÇÖt seem odd when Michael Phelps is wearing a loosely similar type of suit in the Olympics GÇô enhancing his performance. Not too far-fetched to believe that the tech would improve 1000X in the future especially if you take into account the planet, its gravity, and atmosphere. A force field, and inertia dampeners (which are probably related tech) GÇô is not silly at all btw.

Imp Smash wrote:

We, non snipers, have accepted some suspended reality mechanics that help you snipers out. Please accept some suspended reality mechanics that help us targets out to keep it fair.

Again, this is probably where we are with things, and why dust has seen a huge amount of players leave. Catering to the crying masses, b/c snipers are good at their jobs.

This thread has spiraled into people whining about how good Snipers have had it.. people whoGÇÖve invested time in fitting a skill because they like to play a game a certain type of way and appreciate the calm art of it. I recently fitted my Thale again and I was only able to register at 450.. which makes no sense. And When I say register, I mean that if I canGÇÖt see the players name GÇô I assume that they are GÇ£out of rangeGÇ¥ which is ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. Congrats CCP - more steps in the wrong drection.


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Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 279	Posted - 2014.10.29 04:22:00 - [1] - Quote Ubuu de Reide wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: No. Its broken. Because in a real warzone, I wouldn't be able to get my rilfe to kill you if I could see you with the scope attached to it, right? Because in a real warzone you have bullet drop. This limiting factor is not present in dust so it is compensated for via effective range. Think of it as the bullet losing so much velocity that even if it were to hit the target it would do 0 damage. We are wearing armored/shielded suits afterall. Add to that the human eye can see for miles -- scope not required. Doesn't mean a bullet can go that far.... And in a real warzone there is no redline. You don't magically explode if you enter an area that the enemy can safely move around. This is designed to change that. And for the record I still get sniped by snipers I can't see -- they just arent 800 out on their MCC anymore...
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 281	Posted - 2014.10.29 23:40:00 - [2] - Quote Ubuu de Reide wrote: I'm not firing a pistol at 400m, I'm firing a long range weapon. Bullet drop should have no affect if your head is larger than my sights and I can tell what class of solider you are and what type of suit youre wearing. You have never fired a sniper rifle have you. Trust me -- they really don't work like they do in Dust.... But let's step outside of the realism of range argument and look at the discussion as a whole. Yes -- even by modern standards 400 meters isn't THAT far. But we have to consider how many real world physics are suspended. Take stamina -- those targets that are running, jumping and zigzagging can only do so for so long. But in real life a soldier, in a full kit (which is very VERY heavy), completely lacking the powered assisted movement that clone suits offer, can sprint much farther much longer and jump many more times before they can't anymore. To make gameplay viable CCP created a stamina mechanic that violates how humans actually work practically. Would you want to snipe targets when they can all sprint, jump, etc CONSTANTLY as much as they please? Basically we have a few suspended reality mechanics in this game. Changing reality mechanics for just ONE class while leaving everyone else limited by suspended reality makes that one class have an unfair advantage. The red line is a perfect example. The fact you have magic forcefield is absolutely silly in terms of realism. So asking for a realistic change for your offense while maintaining your magicpants defense is, of course, a bit unfair. Or the fact only your eyes have to poke over a hill to snipe -- and not the WHOLE GUN like in real life. We, non snipers, have accepted some suspended reality mechanics that help you snipers out. Please accept some suspended reality mechanics that help us targets out to keep it fair.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 313	Posted - 2014.11.06 03:44:00 - [3] - Quote Ubuu de Reide wrote: Thokk Nightshade wrote: I used to be one of those like you, spouting off real world statistics and arguing about the 1000 Meter sniper shots and we are in the future so it should be even better. Then I came to a realization; this is a video game, and if that was put into place, it would completely suck the fun and enjoyment out of 80% of the playerbase because at that point, there would be ABSOLUTELY no way to counteract that.. Video games don't use real world physics. They are manipulated to fit the needs of the game mechanics. This is why scouts can run forever in a day and can jump the equivalent of 10 meters when a Sentinel is slow as molasses and can't jump over a fallen branch (ya know, if there were trees). Yea, I understand that this and IGÇÖm probably going to have to settle for the childish explanation that is a video-game. I thought we were trying to aspire for a bit more in the Dust universe, but that explanation is the perfect cop-out for CCP since they are prone to folding under the pressure of whiney forum users complaining about snipers GÇ£ruiningGÇ¥ the game for them [ which I acknowledge that I am doing now], but IGÇÖm making this an issue in the hopes that they reverse their HUGE nerf of the effective sniper scope kill ranges GÇô because honestly GÇô it wasnGÇÖt broken before. Imp Smash wrote: You have never fired a sniper rifle have you. Trust me -- they really don't work like they do in Dust.... IGÇÖm not going to get into a pee-pee measuring contest with you, but IGÇÖve fired a wide range of weapons and IGÇÖm VERY familiar with sniper rifle behavior. Imp Smash wrote: But let's step outside of the realism of range argument and look at the discussion as a whole. Yes -- even by modern standards 400 meters isn't THAT far. But we have to consider how many real world physics are suspended. Take stamina -- those targets that are running, jumping and zigzagging can only do so for so long. But in real life a soldier, in a full kit (which is very VERY heavy), completely lacking the powered assisted movement that clone suits offer, can sprint much farther much longer and jump many more times before they can't anymore. To make gameplay viable CCP created a stamina mechanic that violates how humans actually work practically. Would you want to snipe targets when they can all sprint, jump, etc CONSTANTLY as much as they please? Basically we have a few suspended reality mechanics in this game. Changing reality mechanics for just ONE class while leaving everyone else limited by suspended reality makes that one class have an unfair advantage. The red line is a perfect example. The fact you have magic forcefield is absolutely silly in terms of realism. So asking for a realistic change for your offense while maintaining your magicpants defense is, of course, a bit unfair. Or the fact only your eyes have to poke over a hill to snipe -- and not the WHOLE GUN like in real life. The range is the primary issue here GÇô you canGÇÖt side-step it. Modern rifles have an effective kill range of 800+m.. Dust takes place roughly 20,000 years IN THE FUTURE!?!!1!1!ONE There are very few items in dust that require the user to suspend belief GÇô which I like. I personally donGÇÖt have an issue with the stamina physics, because it seems realistic given the universe (this could and should be its own topic), because again GÇô we justify shields, we justify ranges GÇô justifying stamina in a suit 20k in the future doesnGÇÖt seem odd when Michael Phelps is wearing a loosely similar type of suit in the Olympics GÇô enhancing his performance. Not too far-fetched to believe that the tech would improve 1000X in the future especially if you take into account the planet, its gravity, and atmosphere. A force field, and inertia dampeners (which are probably related tech) GÇô is not silly at all btw. Imp Smash wrote: We, non snipers, have accepted some suspended reality mechanics that help you snipers out. Please accept some suspended reality mechanics that help us targets out to keep it fair. Again, this is probably where we are with things, and why dust has seen a huge amount of players leave. Catering to the crying masses, b/c snipers are good at their jobs. This thread has spiraled into people whining about how good Snipers have had it.. people whoGÇÖve invested time in fitting a skill because they like to play a game a certain type of way and appreciate the calm art of it. I recently fitted my Thale again and I was only able to register at 450.. which makes no sense. And When I say register, I mean that if I canGÇÖt see the players name GÇô I assume that they are GÇ£out of rangeGÇ¥ which is ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. Congrats CCP - more steps in the wrong drection. As far as responses go -- I'm a bit unimpressed. I think you are saying that because we can shoot far now in real life we should shoot far in a game? Despite different physics existing in game? Ok, let me try explaining it this way. Due to memory space limitations the map can only be x sized. So we can't get bigger than that. So to keep the action going certain limitations have to be made on player suits and guns. Otherwise every gun could shoot across the whole map. If there was a 0 at the end of all the numbers would everyone be more comfortable? My LR shoots 900 meters! Your sniper shoots 4500 meters! Realism achieved! Placebo effect balance? It's all about relative ranges. Yes 450 meters is not far. At the same time -- its 4x farther than a rifle. So, yay? The shorter ranges force snipers to leave the redline. So, in otherwords, you can't snipe from an invincible location. I still fail to see the problem.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 320	Posted - 2014.11.07 00:45:00 - [4] - Quote Ubuu de Reide wrote: See above regarding the MCC and hunting people down. THAT is what I consider fun. I really appreciate you not belittling my POV, because what I am saying is that even the relative ranges to other weapons donGÇÖt make sense, and there was nothing broken about the gameplay. People just didnGÇÖt want to exhaust the grey-matter to hunt a sniper down (like IGÇÖve done SEVERAL times). You could always have done something about it. All the ISK and SP IGÇÖve spent on specing into this fit I feel like IGÇÖve been swindled and honestly wasted a large portion of my time to cater to whiny players who will leave the Dust/Eve universe when the next big FPS comes along. IGÇÖll keep playing Dust because IGÇÖve invested so much time into it GÇô but IGÇÖm probably not going to invest anymore money into the game unless this is fixed. Pay to respec... then wait for another egregious change.. then pay to respec again... no thank you. AH, you feel that the range change is making it so that infantry doesn't have to work hard enough to find snipers. Well, I suppose you can make a fair argument for that. I may not agree at the moment but I can see how someone would be annoyed if they feel like their role is being pigeon holed into easy counterability. I can sympathize because, as an assault, MY role was, a while back pigeon holed into easy counterability by scouts being hard to damage even when visible + shotguns.