DUST Search - Kb/m and DS3 debate.

Haerr wrote:

At least there seems to be some common ground in the bottom line. Both control schemes can stand to be improved upon.

To DS3 users the current Tank acceleration controls are unnecessarily limited, a version of the LAV control scheme would feel a lot better. (As Morte has suggested before.)

To mouse users the limiting of mouse response to input while using turret and dropship controls is counterintuitive. Using similar aiming mechanics to flight-sims would help a lot. Someone suggested UT3 like controls for dropships. For turrets the tank controls in War Thunder seems like a good choice.

Various hindrances need to be lifted from mouse controls. (These have been posted in separate threads and even a summary would take up too much space here.)

Getting both control schemes to at least feel up to par with how decent controls in other games feel like ought to be a goal to work towards.

Allowing players more options and settings (remapping pretty please!) to enable players to fine tune their controls to their own liking would be a huge step in terms of player customisability. (Customisability is a point of pride for Dust, isn't it?)

After both control schemes have been improved upon the picture will be a lot clearer for which place AA needs to have. For without having the ability to pit players, who are using control schemes that they are both familiar and comfortable in using, against each other how can we really see (and empirically test) how much AA that is appropriate for Dust?

Think of it as time saving effort. Fix both control schemes first, then use clean empirical data directly from Dust to help balance just how strong the AA in Dust needs to be.

If it would help to setup monitored matches to see the performance of, and compare, the control schemes you already have hordes of dedicated players that are more than willing to take part. Several of which are comfortable enough in using either control scheme. (Not me though, I have just barely figured out which part of the DS3 that is up...)

If Legion is going to be on both PCs and PS4s wouldn't it make sense to start figuring this out as soon as possible?


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Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 273	Posted - 2014.10.27 00:07:00 - [1] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Only to a point. The KB/m doesn't make you an aiming ninja magically by dint of potential. And aim assist makes up the difference. God I hate running aim assist when I use controllers. It badly jacks my aim up for some reason. The AA in this game feels nonexistent outside of very close quarters. And then again does not affect certain weapons. Mouse has indisputably faster turn speed than ds3 iirc. The time it takes a maxed out mouse to complete a 180 when being attacked from behind compared to a ds3 with max setting doing the same is verifiably biased towards mice, no? (i feel really confident about this assertion for some reason but if someone has proof otherwise lemme know) So not only do you gain advantages for CQC in turn speed but your aiming are longer ranges is considerably more accurate with a mouse. Complete balance would necessitate skewing it in the ds3's favor IMO because aiming with 2 thumbsticks vs the precision you obtain using your entire wrist/arm is definitely harder. As is though it just sucks using anything but a KBM setup taking advantage of programs to remap. But I completely disagree AA makes up the difference...instead I feel in some sense that they just fugged up kbm's to compensate where everyone would be much happier and it'd be healthier if we increased the AA and unfugged KBM's. Close the gap from skill in to power out ratio. This is merely an assumption. One that is incorrect. As you stated, a "fully maxed out" controller will move faster than a controller when getting shot from behind. Then you say you also get improved aiming. You don't. If the mouse is set super high you lose fine precision aiming. It's one or the other -- not both. Medically speaking -- the muscles in the thumb are, when trained, far more accurate than your arm wrist. As far as game play is concerned -- this is mulitplied by not having to deal with surface traction and gravity issues of the limb. The BEST FPS players in the world have always used a trackball for a reason. The simple fact of the matter is that mice don't change tensile values like controllers do with wear. This is, itself, exagerated by the fact that the ps3 controller has traditionally had somewhat overly soft sticks. 3rd party controllers with firm sticks are far more accurate. Assuming someone doesn't cheat using an autofire button (I'm looking at you former ScR cheaters) it is entirely a matter of getting more precise equipment for controller users to compete on par with mouse/keyboard users. A poster above said that mouse users are more accurate. That if someone could use both that they would always do better with the m/Kb. This is catagorically false. I am a former professional FPS players from the late 90's early 2ks. I payed for college, my house, and my car with prize money back when we could actually earn enough to do so. I am very good with the m/Kb. All that being said -- I stopped PC gaming close to 10 years ago and started console gaming due to having a life. I can catagorically deny that the m/KB is better. I score better in this game with a controller. A decade of controller use has trained my thumb quite well. I am more accurate with the controller. The controller is not better than the mouse -- it is merely a different physical skillset. Hence, despite having a mouse and keyboard, I use the controller. An issue may exist with people using programmable mice and keyboards to gain an advantage. Of course it exists. I cannot comment on that. Of course, an issue exists with people using programmable 3rd party controllers. Of course it exists. I cannot comment on that either. Saying that one group of players have an advantage in hardware is foolish -- both groups are capable and, in fact, DO buy programmable hardware and run macros/scripts. Both controller players like myself and m/Kb players like some of my buddies. That is an entirely seperate issue. All of that being said: The KBM confers a strafing advantage that shouldn't exist. Inertia should be applied to suits. The instant strafe back and forth with suits (especially pronounced on certain high speed suits) allows KB to slip through bullets that they shouldn't. Inertia would auto balance suits -- the faster the suit the longer the strafe time but larger the gap created. The m/Kb is also better than the ds3 for movement when driving vehicles as many people have stated. They are significantly worse when aiming in turrets. That is not a controller/mKb issue -- that is a CCP needing to adjust the control schemes issue. Programmable m/Kbs and programmable controllers are the only ones that get around this at this time. The controller is SIGNIFICANTLY better than the m/kb when flying dropships. It's a full on advantage. This also needs to be corrected via control scheme, I cannot comment on Aim Assist. As stated I'm FPS infancy era. Never had it so never used it and I turn it off if it all possible.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 273	Posted - 2014.10.27 03:46:00 - [2] - Quote Victor, if I may respond to your well written post. As far as mKb goes -- I have mostly quit PC gaming -- but there IS 1 series I still play-- BF. Ever since BF2 I have been a fan. So that is the one game (currently BF4 and its constant crashing) I still play and I use mKb. And I do very well. As I stated -- competitive play was once my job. I can use mKb pretty good. I just do better with a DS3 in Dust. Which is why I 1000% agree -- as you said, "what a person likes is irrelevant, as long as their preferred control method actually works." But as far as figure 8 strafing is concerned -- I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with instant switch mKb. Add intertia and all of this will be solved as the time it takes to move the control stick will compensate for the inertia issue. And, for the record, I am able to figure 8 strafe with a Kb. So I know it's doable. Just unnecessary with the instant direction changes combined with lag making bullets that would normally hit still miss. Finally let me apologize for not being more specific. When i was referring to vehicles I should have specified Tanks. mKb is better for tanks. DS is better for LaVs and Dropships. Other than that you get 2 likes from me. @Blueprint Blueprint For Murder wrote: There is no debate just like there is no debate which is faster between clicking and binding if you think other wise it is because you fail get good. PC gamer for too long, I use ds3 only because dust is a console game and I don't have a desk in my living room; I did bring kb and mouse down for a few days to give it a go though it is way more responsive and accurate than ds3. What we have are players and tryhards the players are here to kill stuff in a competitive atmosphere and the tryhards do there best to exploit broken game mechanics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMlsSecuzE8 As per me and Victor's earlier conversation -- do you not think that it is possible that you simply do better with mKb because you are used to it?
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 274	Posted - 2014.10.27 06:58:00 - [3] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: Imp Smash wrote: But as far as figure 8 strafing is concerned -- I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with instant switch mKb. Add intertia and all of this will be solved as the time it takes to move the control stick will compensate for the inertia issue. And, for the record, I am able to figure 8 strafe with a Kb. So I know it's doable. Just unnecessary with the instant direction changes combined with lag making bullets that would normally hit still miss. I'll admit that I'm still skeptical about this. Maybe it's just because I've never managed to actually get that "instaswitch" strafe to actually work... but that's probably down to the fact that I'm an average-at-best player. My gut feeling is that we, the community, either need to test it ourselves or jam a few fingers in CCP's eye(s) to get them to do it. Which also fully explains why I can't figure-8 strafe on a keyboard... but hey, figure-8 is overrated when faced with anywhere from 4-6 meters of explosive hate radius. MD>mad strafing skills. Or at least, that's what I'll tell myself to feel less bad. . I should be clear here too. It's redundant on the keyboard. I am good -- but by no means elite. My skills are no where near where they used to be during InstaGib Rail Quake days. And I knew no one that ran a dodge pattern like that. Here as well I never do. 'Capable of' is not the same as 'good at' or even 'viable'. It's just doable. And imo redundant. Zatara Rought wrote:* This is grossly misinformed. And your credentials are no more accepted than 8213 posting he was #1 Doom #1 MLG Halo #1 [insert FPS title here] won x # of tourneys it's utter bullshit bro. Well I am not surprised at how you took that although I am surprised at how you ran with it. Let me be clear. You should not, nor do I want you to, take my word based on what I may or may not have done 15 years ago. These were not listed as credentials nor do I expect anyone to take me at my word. As it is the internet anyone can say anything. I merely posted it so that you could imagine the perspective I am coming from. Whether you believe it or not has no basis on what you should be considering -- the rationale of my statements. Had I posted "I have never played video games before YESTERDAY" instead you should still consider the rationale as opposed to my background whether said background is real or imagined. If you are going to claim it is 'grossly misinformed' you may wish to actually refute my points individually as opposed to a blanket statement as a group. At least -- if you don't want to look biased. Zatara Rought wrote: here's 2 article's you can contest if you like. http://www.totalxbox.com/21262/xbox-vs-pc-scrapped-because-of-imbalance/ http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2011/1/24 One makes reference to the infamous microsoft situation that these debates always end up referring to where they found that console players got destroyed by PC players. The 2nd is an interview with a developer of Monday Night Combat about the process of how they attempted to bridge the gap between controllers and KBM users. A few quotes: Pay special attention to the parts discussing: View acceleration View friction View adhesion Aim attraction I don't need to refute these articles. They do not specifically refute anything I said. They do illustrate how control input has evolved. A stick CAN be as accurate as a mouse -- it's just a higher learning curve. But if you insist-- things not covered include: how well the bridge attempts worked out (in the Penny arcade article.) The actual control and input schemes in Shadowrun. It said was that the console players couldn't keep up --> Some but not quite enough exact discussion and specifics about the input schemes occurred. The fact that longtime console players have, literally, a decade plus of a practice headstart over controller users (how COULD anyone overlook that -- surely it would make sense that it's a big deal >.>... ) However, you do make a point that I overlooked. Specifically the increase in the number of input options on the keyboard plus generally mapping allowing mKb to lose less time when making inputs. That is something I failed to mention and it is an entirely valid concern. However that is also a mapping issue. When a better controller or customizable inputs for DS3 (some 3rd party controllers can do this I believe) you can do everything you need to do without taking your thumb off of either stick. Conversely -- mKb players can't be as fast/accurate with grenades as DS3 players due to grenade being on the X button. Borderlands did quite well in this respect with fully customizable input options. (I think it was borderlands, my memory is hazy.) And I always recommend x control scheme over Y control scheme due to not having to take your thumb off of the right stick to perform an action and therefore be able to aim simultaneously. So yes -- due to the mapping there are a few other areas I neglected to mention. However this does not refute my points either as input mapping can potentially solve these issues.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 274	Posted - 2014.10.27 06:59:00 - [4] - Quote So let me try to summarize my point and opinion. I think (and I may be wrong) that the debate between mKb and DS3 can really only exist in the areas where they are fundamentally different. They fundamentally differ in how they input data with the KB having instant on off input with no neutral ground required plus a variety of input options and the mouse which is arguably more accurate or less accurate than a stick. Oh and the limited number of input options on the pad available to fingers besides the thumbs which are otherwise occupied. Again, if you want to correct me feel free. It's all my 2 isk. However, please discuss each point as opposed to a blanket statement of 'this is all misinformed.' With respect, An ornery gamer.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 279	Posted - 2014.10.28 00:30:00 - [5] - Quote Haerr wrote: At least there seems to be some common ground in the bottom line. Both control schemes can stand to be improved upon. To DS3 users the current Tank acceleration controls are unnecessarily limited, a version of the LAV control scheme would feel a lot better. (As Morte has suggested before.) To mouse users the limiting of mouse response to input while using turret and dropship controls is counterintuitive. Using similar aiming mechanics to flight-sims would help a lot. Someone suggested UT3 like controls for dropships. For turrets the tank controls in War Thunder seems like a good choice. Various hindrances need to be lifted from mouse controls. (These have been posted in separate threads and even a summary would take up too much space here.) Getting both control schemes to at least feel up to par with how decent controls in other games feel like ought to be a goal to work towards. Allowing players more options and settings (remapping pretty please!) to enable players to fine tune their controls to their own liking would be a huge step in terms of player customisability. (Customisability is a point of pride for Dust, isn't it?) After both control schemes have been improved upon the picture will be a lot clearer for which place AA needs to have. For without having the ability to pit players, who are using control schemes that they are both familiar and comfortable in using, against each other how can we really see (and empirically test) how much AA that is appropriate for Dust? Think of it as time saving effort. Fix both control schemes first, then use clean empirical data directly from Dust to help balance just how strong the AA in Dust needs to be. If it would help to setup monitored matches to see the performance of, and compare, the control schemes you already have hordes of dedicated players that are more than willing to take part. Several of which are comfortable enough in using either control scheme. (Not me though, I have just barely figured out which part of the DS3 that is up...) If Legion is going to be on both PCs and PS4s wouldn't it make sense to start figuring this out as soon as possible? Yay.