|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
2646
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 03:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have been playing a few PC's recently, and Ive made a discovery--there are really two main "Slayer" strategies for holding interior points-- superior HP or superior firepower.
Right now, the overwhelming tactic in PC is to "SPAM ALL DE HEAVIES YAA", which provides a dilemma to the opposing team. How do you counter 15000 HP and 8000 DPS? When you each have high clone supplies, taking points simply becomes a matter of who can get the most heavies on the field in a 50 square meter area at one time. The superior numbers will win. There is no room for finesse, no room for speed hacks, no room for anything other than raw HP and firepower.
There is no problem with a single heavy. There is no problem with 3 heavies.
There is, however, a problem where it is quite simply not possible for a team to output enough DPS to kill 6 heavies before they begin going through spawns again. Its quite simply impossible to do.
This leads to an FoTM of throwing down the fastest possible links and, for lack of a better term, spamming HMG heavies in a confined area until the attackers can rally enough heavies of their own to spawn quickly and zerg rush the point.
It turns the game into a mindless meat grinder.
However, there is a solution.
Uplinks need a serious change so that they can't allow 1500 HP killing machines with 800 DPS weapons to be in, quite literally, unlimited flow.
I have no proposition to make, Im tired and can't think at the moment. Ill leave that up to the community to ponder.
However, I just want to address this current issue in PC of using a cheap, non tactical ploy of filling up a space with more HP than can be over come by any firepower available. There currently is no real counter, other than to zerg rush your own heavies, which is basically the same exact tactic of trying to stack as much possible HP and firepower cycling endlessly in one area.
To counter the heavy spam, one must heavy spam harder. That is the problem with this tactic. It forces non-tactical game play.
Just my thoughts. There is only very, very slight need for a heavy nerf (perhaps taking 1.1x more damage when attacked from behind?), but the main problem here is drop uplinks allowing such powerful suits to be deployed in a nearly unlimited flow.
"Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
|
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
2646
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 03:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
LUGMOS wrote:Plasma Cannon or Mass Driver. Area denial should be your friend. Make the Mass driver viable and you have your fix.
Inb4 ur dum for suggestion plasma cannon and mass driver ....This isn't about that at all.
These weapons simply can't output enough DPS to actually dent a cycle of 6+ 1500 HP heavies, no matter how many people use them. Its just not feasible.
There is currently no such thing as area denial in PC, unless you mean camping a terminal with an AFG.
"Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
|
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
2647
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 03:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Apothecary Za'ki wrote:LUGMOS wrote:Plasma Cannon or Mass Driver. Area denial should be your friend. Make the Mass driver viable and you have your fix.
Inb4 ur dum for suggestion plasma cannon and mass driver winmatar commando with dual massdrivers +++++++++++++kills in comfined areas Do that in a PC against an organized team of 16. Tell me how it goes.
"Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
|
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
2671
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 19:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Apothecary Za'ki wrote:LUGMOS wrote:Plasma Cannon or Mass Driver. Area denial should be your friend. Make the Mass driver viable and you have your fix.
Inb4 ur dum for suggestion plasma cannon and mass driver winmatar commando with dual massdrivers +++++++++++++kills in comfined areas. ps. i find it ironic that a person from FA is whining about heavies when they (FA) use scouts to the extreme FOTMness If by scouts you mean myself and TTW, then yes you are correct.
The only thing that scouts are good for besides some of the great slayers like TT is providing scans for the heavies that would otherwise be blind.
Note: If shared passives were removed, scouts and heavies would become much less dominant in PC's, as the scouts are brought for passives for the heavies, and heavies are brought because they can have scout passives, an HMG, and 1500 HP. You remove part of the equation, and you open up some room for assaults to breathe.
"Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
|
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
2675
|
Posted - 2014.10.25 04:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Hynox Xitio wrote:Heavy spam only works properly if the conditions are right
Drop Uplinks everywhere.
Nanohives everywhere.
Habitual Scans to alert tam of enemy presence.
Constant Logi support.
Heavy spam is not a cheap tactic, it's the result of a carefully orchestrated support network set up around the objective. You don't kill weeds by chopping their heads off, you gotta pull them up from the roots, so they stop coming back like the parasitic leeches they are.
Spend less time shooting heavies, and more time shooting that one drop uplink that allows those 5 heavies to keep spawning.
All the conditions you listed exist 100% of the time in PC, except perhaps logi support.
But thats not necessary when you have 1500 HP and can spawn back instantly.
"Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
|
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
2675
|
Posted - 2014.10.25 04:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bradric Banewolf wrote:Everything that has been said here is true to some extent. My question is this:
Shouldn't every suit be viable in PC?
I mean to be fair, no merc wants to put in all that work in an area just to be rendered null and void in the pinnacle of the game?! If a merc goes assault nowadays he's useless in PC for the most part?! There are a few dedicated assault slayers still around that can get it done, but they're playing on extremely hard mode.
Having a proto sentinel almost guarantees a role in PC right now. I don't know how many PC chats I have been in where if you say "RF1" 32 mercs type "proto heavy" in the chat?! I myself am on the bench unless I type that I also have proto scout in the chat. I am them bound to sprint-hack-die duty for the duration of the PC match?!
Right now in PC your either a heavy, logi-*****, or scout. I would love to see PC a whole overhauled completely! Currently it's just a skirmish on roids where we go to die quicker in full proto than we do normally in standard fits?!
Alot of mercs here in the forums have proposed some changes, but with all the changes that the game has seen I think it's time for a change to PC entirely. CCP, in my opinion, has started to notice. This is why they started to work on factional warfare! I believe until we can truly add eve on a larger scale than just OB support, until we can make PC a true war mode, and until we can find a cure for tactic-less spam we will be stuck with a mode no one wants to waste isk on?!
I think the key to attracting more players is PC. So it will need to be worthwhile. Players like to reach the meat of the story in gaming, and PC for all intents and purposes is that steak sandwich in dust. For a player to grind up enough SP to participate in PC just to realize it's an incomplete game mode riddled with heavy and scout spam is dissapointing?!
I completely understand the OP's point here because I've seen it. If you don't think it's true go get in a proto assault with your best weapon, and fight in a PC. The only thing you will accomplish is burning isk?! Proto Assault is not extreme hard mode.
I have ADV minASS and it is VERY good. Like close to being OP good. If you have a squad, assaults are better than scouts, unless you are the only scout in the squad.
I haven't run it in a PC as of yet, but once the sidearm event is over+2 weeks capping, Ill be relatively close to full proto, at which point Ill probably run it over my min scout except for the occasional speed hack or HP defense.
"Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
|
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
2677
|
Posted - 2014.10.25 12:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Bradric Banewolf wrote:Everything that has been said here is true to some extent. My question is this:
Shouldn't every suit be viable in PC?
I mean to be fair, no merc wants to put in all that work in an area just to be rendered null and void in the pinnacle of the game?! If a merc goes assault nowadays he's useless in PC for the most part?! There are a few dedicated assault slayers still around that can get it done, but they're playing on extremely hard mode.
Having a proto sentinel almost guarantees a role in PC right now. I don't know how many PC chats I have been in where if you say "RF1" 32 mercs type "proto heavy" in the chat?! I myself am on the bench unless I type that I also have proto scout in the chat. I am them bound to sprint-hack-die duty for the duration of the PC match?!
Right now in PC your either a heavy, logi-*****, or scout. I would love to see PC a whole overhauled completely! Currently it's just a skirmish on roids where we go to die quicker in full proto than we do normally in standard fits?!
Alot of mercs here in the forums have proposed some changes, but with all the changes that the game has seen I think it's time for a change to PC entirely. CCP, in my opinion, has started to notice. This is why they started to work on factional warfare! I believe until we can truly add eve on a larger scale than just OB support, until we can make PC a true war mode, and until we can find a cure for tactic-less spam we will be stuck with a mode no one wants to waste isk on?!
I think the key to attracting more players is PC. So it will need to be worthwhile. Players like to reach the meat of the story in gaming, and PC for all intents and purposes is that steak sandwich in dust. For a player to grind up enough SP to participate in PC just to realize it's an incomplete game mode riddled with heavy and scout spam is dissapointing?!
I completely understand the OP's point here because I've seen it. If you don't think it's true go get in a proto assault with your best weapon, and fight in a PC. The only thing you will accomplish is burning isk?! Proto Assault is not extreme hard mode. I have ADV minASS and it is VERY good. Like close to being OP good. If you have a squad, assaults are better than scouts, unless you are the only scout in the squad. I haven't run it in a PC as of yet, but once the sidearm event is over+2 weeks capping, Ill be relatively close to full proto, at which point Ill probably run it over my min scout except for the occasional speed hack or HP defense. Comparatively, assault is hard mode in PC, you don't know this because you said it yourself - you haven't tried it yet. Fair enough
"Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
|
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
2679
|
Posted - 2014.10.25 18:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
poison Diego wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:poison Diego wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:
There is no problem with a single heavy. There is no problem with 3 heavies.
There is, however, a problem where it is quite simply not possible for a team to output enough DPS to kill 6 heavies before they begin going through spawns again. Its quite simply impossible to do.
6 heavies? is that a joke? It is more common to run into 8 or 9 heavies 2 logis, an ads and rest scouts thats hilarious coming from vengeance unbound. I know right?! we learned it from murphys Lets try to keep the flaming to a minimum in this thread. I designed it to be as constructive as possible, and we already have people who have no idea what they're talking about doing enough flaming to make up for the people that do.
So please, try to remain constructive
"Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
|
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
2679
|
Posted - 2014.10.25 20:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
poison Diego wrote: Im not trying to be rude, just a little tease. I agree completely with you about heavies. And now when they will nerf scouts, if they do it to harshly, PC will turn into HMGs514
As far as I can tell, it already is HMGs514
And don't worry about it
"Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
|
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
2680
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 00:32:00 -
[10] - Quote
Izlare Lenix wrote:As a long time scout I agree heavies can be an issue in PC. In fact it forced me to skill into heavies as an effective counter.
But shotgun scouts that can toss REs 10+ meters and kill multiple players are just as much a problem in PC. Ive started using RE's in PC to counter heavy spam and have noticed that they don't usually deploy where I place them....
"Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
|
|
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
2681
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 23:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
I just want to be clear, there are only a few things that I think need to be done to fix the problem:
1. Rep tools need a rework from perma lock to giving lots of reps for a short period of time then requiring recharge, numbers dependent on the variant. Also, they need to give a lesser amount of repair to shields as well. 2. Uplinks need a rework to make them more tactical than "SPAM UPLINKS IN DA CITY OR WE LOSE", which really is the situation right now. The CPM have some innovative ideas on this. 3. Shared passives need to be removed, or at least heavily reworked. Either fully remove them, or rework them so that heavies can't have Amarr Scout vision with 1500 armor and an HMG. My idea was an average of scans between sharer and receiver, but that would require a lot of work by the system, and probably result in lots of glitches. 4. Heavies may need to take more damage from behind than they do, simply as a balancing factor. However, id like to see how other changes work out first before we implement this one.
"Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
|
|
|
|