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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2014.10.12 01:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Just wanted to point out, as someone who has used the AmLogi a LOT, that the Amarr Logi (and, IIRC, the Caldari as well) only has TWO equipment slots at standard, and not three.
But yes, the Logi slot layouts are currently ******** and nonsensical. |
Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2014.10.12 21:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:I'm okay with the slots as they are, Caldari does look like it needs an equipment but there may be some other stat it has that its paying for that with. The Amarr is like that, it's short an equipment and a mod to pay for the sidearm (also slow a **** too).
The slots as they are are bloody terrible. The AmLogi is passable at standard, except it's still outclassed by really any scout suit at equal tier, and CalLogi is straight up a downgrade compared to a scout suit for beginner/newbro logis- fewer slots and no sidearm all for a second equipment slot?! That's a terrible tradeoff symptomatic of an equally terrible slot layout scheme.
At advanced level, the AmLogi and MinLogi are both pretty reasonable (but I'd rather have a 2/4 med/low rather than 3/3 as an AmLogi), but then at proto CalLogi gets mad slot count, GalLogi and MinLogi get 4 (FOUR!) equipment slots, and Amarr Logi gets the short end of the stick.
At the very least, slot layout for the Caldari, Gallente, and Minmatar logi suits needs to be normalized with their assault brothers- MinLogi is actually the only one that does this AFAIK, since MinSalt is 2/2, 3/3, and 4/4 med/low, with light+sidearm+grenade and 1 equip. It also indicates that losing a sidearm and some base stats (mostly HP) is evidently worth gaining 2-3 equipment slots.
IMO, the non-Amarr Logis should actually be changed to have 4 equipment slots at all levels. As an Amarr Logi (mostly part time*), I also feel that gaining a sidearm is worth losing either a module slot, OR an equipment slot, compared to the AmSalt and the other logi suits- but it definitely isn't worth both.
*The current DDM event makes a scout suit a better choice for dual militia Magsec SMGs, which are terrible anyways. Hopefully I'll be the only one really using them though.... |
Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 14:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
I agree with John and Nocturnal Soul- the AmLogi MUST retain its sidearm. IMHO, this is worth either losing a module slot (compared to the Amarr assault suit) or losing an equipment slot (compared to the other logis, which IMO, should be 4 equip across all levels), but not both.
Removing the AmLogi's sidearm will anger a lot of players- me included. And it really comes down to the fact that the AmLogi is supposed to be defined by having a sidearm, and it's why a lot of players (again, myself included) chose the Amarr Logi over other options. |
Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 23:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
The suit description- which is something I'd wager a million ISK that new players actually do read- explicitly notes the AmLogi as being better at direct combat than the other logi suits. The way that this plays out in-game is that it receives a sidearm, thus keeping it from being completely helpless- either at close range or entirely so- when using certain primary weapons *cough* laser rifle, swarms *cough*.
Moreover, the Amarr logi suit having a sidearm slot also makes it- at least IMO- ideal for players who find repping to be insufferably boring, uninteresting, and generally uncompelling gameplay. The fact that I can be busy providing uplinks, nanos, scans, and maybe even revives, while at the same exact time occupying myself with the part of the game that involves shooting other players in the face, is incredibly attractive.
Yes, you can in fact do that in any logi suit. However, the Amarr Logi having a sidearm slot brings a lot of interesting combinations and increases the attractiveness of certain weapons for logi suit users. The biggest and most obvious one is the swarms+sidearm combination, seasoned to taste with proxy/remote explosives, nanos, a scanner, or anything else you could possibly desire for equipment.
Moreover, your mentioning of "energy resupply", "heat reduction", and *narrows eyes* repping makes me wonder just how much you remember about current mechanics. Because there is no energy resupply, heat reduction is suit-specific bonus, and it's actually the dirty Minmatar logi that has the rep tool bonus.
The Amarr Logi bonus is to drop uplinks. As such, it really is more beneficial for it to have a sidearm, since it improves a player's ability to defend a position- by both safely deploying links and then preventing them from being camped (because being on the receiving end of that sucks).
I do agree that the Amja is far superior to the AmLogi right now- at least for the STD level suits- but, based on reading the Logi thread that Cross started (42 pages is a LOT to read through... good thing I had a lot of free time that day) it's actually a complicated affair with no singular cause, and lots of different ideas and options on what should, and what will probably be, done. |
Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
14
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Posted - 2014.10.15 00:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
The point of that post is really to illustrate that the slot progression of the logis is 1. broken, and 2. stupid. Yes, I do note that the STD-level Amarr/Caldari logi suits are flat-out inferior to their scoutly cousins, but the chief reason is because the CalLogi has no sidearm and a terrible slot layout and AmLogi has a passable slot layout but is incredibly slow; both are limited to two equipment slots.
It's actually a more compelling reason to buff the Logis rather than nerf scouts. Now let me be clear: I absolutely do think something needs to be done about scouts, but I think that just flat out nerfing them across the board is NOT what should be done. Scouts being broken right now is, IMO, more symptomatic of the current EWAR mechanics favoring scouts with invisible permascan powers than anything else.
GalLogi slots are also bad, but it has the benefit of a 3/3/4 equipment slot progression from STD->PRO, something the MinLogi shares. Moreover, the Logi bonuses are generally pretty terrible (or are on similarly terrible platforms). MinLogi seems to be something of the exceptions, but if I'm honest it's probably because of the popularity of heavies.
Of course, that then leads into the whole "logis are for repping", which is stupid because it very quickly becomes "logis are walking talking rep tools". |
Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
142
|
Posted - 2014.11.22 19:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
I absolutely agree that the Logis and Assaults should have a normalized slot layout between them.
That being said, I would also be absolutely livid if the Amarr Logi lost it's sidearm- that sidearm has been incredibly helpful to me, particularly in the flexibility to use light weapons with significant limitations that make them pretty nearly suicidal to use on other logi suits- things like LRs, Swarms, and to a lesser extent PLC, shotguns, and IMO MDs.
EDIT: the sidearm of the Amarr Logi also seems to help it diversify, given that the link bonus is super-awesome... but it's also kind of a pigeonholing bonus.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
150
|
Posted - 2014.11.24 14:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Just normalize equipment and take away an amarr logi high slot.
If they want yo keep the sidearm so desperately let them. Just take away a fitting slot.
All suits in a class must maintain the same number of slots. So either yank the sidearm or yank a high slot.
Best way to deal with the problem.
As someone who has thought much on what I would be willing to sacrifice to retain the sidearm, a high slot is definitely something that I would give up.
Though I will note that at present the Amarr Logi already loses a module slot to gain the sidearm- at least at PRO level. Which should have a 2/5 slot layout, instead of the head-scratchingly bizarre 3/4 we have now.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
151
|
Posted - 2014.11.25 00:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:*snipped some well thought out stuff, and massive pile of vitriol directed against Amarr Logi users*
I would like to point out that, IMO, the Caldari Logi should be given the Caldari Assault High/Low layout (IE, 3/1 STD, 4/2 ADV, 5/3 PRO), with 3/3/4 equipment slots at STD/ADV/PRO- this gives it a more all-round design.
Moreover, if shield-based repair tools were ever added, then the CalLogi would (naturally and rightly) get a bonus to such an equipment item... which, IMO, makes a sidearm redundant.
It's my opinion, at least, that an Amarr Logi's sidearm slot makes repping people actively an undesirable action- you've got two guns, and putting both of them away in favor of chaining oneself to a heavy with a rep tool seems... asinine, quite frankly.
I'd rather keep that heavy alive by shooting the pissants who think "oh, a heavy on open ground! FREE KILL!!1!"... though that might also be due to the fact that I have great hatred for the vapid morons who think that in the following scenario:
PROBLEM: While crossing open ground, we are taking fire from long range (IE, outside of HMG range)
SOLUTIONS:
1. Shoot those punks who think they can drop your heavybro
2. Keep the heavy rep-leashed at all costs
Solution #2 is the appropriate one (protip: it bloody well isn't).
With that said, I am not in the slightest bit opposed to the Caldari Logi being made the shield equivalent of the Amarr variation. It would, at least, be interesting.
Finally, I'd also like to point out that, at least for me, the argument of "keep the AmLogi sidearm" is due to the fact that it has, since the day that Uprising was released and the AmLogi was brought into the game, been built around "AmLogi having a sidearm is one of the defining features of the suit".
It's never been about a supposedly sub-par bonus (I actually quite like the bonus, as it happens), it's always been a case of the Amarr Logi keeping it's original defining feature.
TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Are you shitting me? I'll give up my secondary slot for a sidearm? No ****, I'm sure Minmitar and Gallente would give up a high as well and Caldari would give up a low.
Breakin's comment was basically that, yes. I don't get what your problem with the Amarr Logi is- the suit's defining feature has always been that it's the only logi with a sidearm slot. I do not want to see that removed, because a lot of interesting (and viable) fits- like AmLogi tankhunters using swarms/PLC with proxies/REs/AV nades- are immediately killed to the detriment of the game as a whole.
I will, however, reiterate that I do not mind the Caldari Logi getting the same distinction in a shield-based format. It, quite frankly, is a reasonable plan- the current distinction ("has most slots") is not actually a distinction anymore, and is also rather a rather ass distinction at that.
Also, I'd like to point out that a MinLogi would be more likely to give up a low slot than a high- despite the base armor/shield values I tend to see more MinLogis either shield or dual-tanking; not very many- at least in my experience- run pure armor tanks.
Finally, I'd like to point out that Logi suits need to have the same sprint speed as an assault of equal race, because otherwise a logi is completely unable to keep up with a group of assault users.
Jadd Hatchen wrote:Are you being freaking ******** yet again? People were screaming about normalization back then because they knew it would affect their ability to be a slayer logi!!! So you compromised and gave the Amar Logi a freaking sidearm!!! How was that fair and equitable. Now this guy in the original post shows how your over all slot numbers are inconsistent and obviously need to be fixed and you laugh at him? WTF CCP Rattati? Additionally, ALL SCOUTS have to either loose a sidearm slot or loose an equipment slot. Right now they are too good at beign a logi and are too good at being an assault. If you choose to be a fast cloaky scout, there needs to be an actual tradeoff in capability... Right now scouts rule the game.
You are obviously either:
a. New to DUST.
b. Stupid.
Take your pick, because slayer logis were completely murderized no later than Uprising 1.6- and IIRC it was actually around 1.4/1.5-ish that it happened.
Furthermore, as I mentioned further up in my post, the defining aspect of the Amarr Logi has always been as the "logi with a sidearm".
Also, scout-related discussion is best kept to other places. It's pretty much accepted by 99% of the community (or at least those who care) that scouts are overperforming by ridiculous degrees. You don't need to say that it's the way things are because everybody already knows.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
194
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 00:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Joel II X wrote:I feel like EVERY suit should require a fitting optimization module to fit all proto +¦ unless they have all cores and fitting optimization skills.
I contend that Alena's point is that it's necessary to fit a Complex CPU mod to fill out every slot of the suit- it's already well established that the Caldari Logi is notoriously CPU starved.
I highly doubt that any Logi suit can realistically fit "full proto" and still be combat effective in their role.
Auris Lionesse wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:The-Errorist wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:[...] [...] [...] IMO also ALL Logis should have their sidearms returned, with no penalty. no. logis are not combat suits. their job is support. they do not need more weapons. if they all gain a side arm the assault suit need to be given more slots to account for it. logis are already nearly on par with assaults minus 1 slot.then you add 3-4equipment and it tips in favor of the logi. this doesnt make sense because logis should fit less than an assault across the board.[...]
Snipped down to relevant parts... also, dat quote chain, and emphasis mine.
If you really believe logis to be nearly the equal of an assault... I don't know what you're smoking, but it must be some really good stuff. Because the only way a Logi is equal or better than an Assault at anything is if the Logi is playing their role and focusing on using equipment- and even their gun, when it is appropriate- to support their team.
If you just want to shoot people in the face, then an Assault suit is blatantly superior- it's faster, has more stamina, more durability, and weapon bonuses. Even considering the ass nature of the Caldari/Gallente racial bonuses, they still can fit better weapons and grenades with much greater ease.
Comparing, say, the Amarr Logi and Amarr Assault (as the former is the "sidearm Logi", so to speak), also points out some fairly obvious things- Logis are flimsy, slow, and only marginally less blind than Assaults.
In other words, you are, quite simply, wrong. The "Slayer Logi"- IE, the Logi that does everything the Assault does and then some- is never going to return. Assaults will always be better at shooting stuff in the face, while Logis will be perceived as "not a combat suit".
Which is in and of itself stupid, since if they weren't a combat suit, then they would not be deployed to the burnzone.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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