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Mister Goo
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
34
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Posted - 2014.10.22 13:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
Atiim wrote:If you don't enjoy reading, then I suggest skipping to the TL;DR.
Currently, the only thing required to be successful with a Repair Tools is latch onto an Armor Tanker and hold on for dear life. This doesn't require much thought or user input, and makes things monotonous for those using them. Along with that, Repair Tools favor those with higher HP/s, which makes them inferior to the Focused variants.
To solve these issues, I suggest giving them a Capacitor and adjusting their HP/s accordingly. This way, those wielding a Repair Tool would have to decide when or where to use one, but still being effective.
Normally your posts are about something completely broken and need to be fixed. I am confused as to why you would want to change the repair tools this way. I won't say I'm against it completely, but I don't see a need.
Question: Why the change? a. Tired of seeing a person at the top of the leader boards with 0/5 vs 26/2 by the second ranked person b. Your a Logi who is bored with the current set up and wants something more challenging c. Its unfair that Team member A does nothing but hold the R2 button and gets the most WP/SP/Isk d. To be considered gud you have to have a positive KDR e. Tired of seeing the Logi following behind with the tool running when nobody is around IE leashed f. any other reason you can think of that I haven't listed.
By your first two sentences I would guess C, but that may not be the case, and I will give you the benefit of being better than that. As to the leashed pair I believe that is a noob logi who dosen't know better and is afraid he will not be able to lock on when the time comes, and is oblivious that he has a weapon also to help until needed.
I am more confused by the last sentence about the repair tools themselves. There are different vairients to the repair tool yes, and the focused one is only available at proto. They have their pros and cons just like everything else, you use the proper tool for what your doing.
Core=economy 13215 Isk 2 beam 70hp/s 15 m. Lai Dai Flux=distance 21630 isk 2 beam 70hp/s 22.5 m. Six Kin=Standard 21630 isk 2 beam 88hp/s 15 m. Core Focused 21630 isk 1beam 125hp/s 7.5m I didn't list the LP ones because you get the idea from these. Yes the focused ones heal more but you have to be very close. If your farming WP then it heals way to fast you are better off with a militia one. dirty needle and dirty repair tool=more WP if you want to farm. Help to team very little.
On my cheap suits I use the core, the six kin as my goto tool, if I am doing point defense I use the core focused, and lastly If Im running with a lot of fast Assaults/Scouts the Lai Dai is a better choice because of the distance it can reach 33.75 at lvl5.
For context Militia Assault Rifle no skill vs armor DPS=370 Core Focused maxed skills =156.25 HPs healed
Basic HMG DPS=828 stay away from close contact, leave the heavy for remotes (2 for 1 special) or another heavy. you make your own conclusions.
Again not completely against this idea but it comes down to being a nerf on the repair tool, the main weapon of the logi. You kill with your weapon of choice, I kill with my team mates weapon of choice, by changing him from 1 person to 1.5 people.
Closed Beta Vet
Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
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Mister Goo
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
35
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Posted - 2014.10.22 14:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Mister Goo wrote:stuff and numbers.
See my above post. the problem people have with the repair tool isn't that it's OP. it's the synergy of the repair tool combined with an amarr or gallente sentinel in CQC where the sentinel can usually block access to the logi.
I do agree with your post, but that is not what the OP is saying/suggesting.
The synergy is very strong when your solo, but working as a team it is quickly overcome even in CQC. Right now red berries have the mind set of "I'm going to kill that heavy no matter what" and they throw themselves at him, feeding frenzy style. They don't change tactics to compensate for the logi/heavy combination. The Logi/Heavy synergy is a direct result of good team work.
There are very vew places that heavys can block all access to a TEAM of enemys. In those few places it can be done, but your in a death trap, when more than one person is attacking at the same time. Grenades work wonders on a logi suit.
Again TEAM WORK, for a game that is supposed to be based on team work there is very little used.
If Dust were changed to your scenerio I agree completely with a capasitor based tool, but as things are now it is not a viable solution.
So my response on how to fix the Repair tool in todays game is more simple and doesn't require CCP to do anything. Team Work
Closed Beta Vet
Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
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Mister Goo
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
35
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Posted - 2014.10.22 14:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:all it takes for a suppressor Heavy to be a thing is for Rattati to:
Up HMG range
Lower HMG damage to somewhere around current assault HMG
Decrease dispersion sharply.
the only thing that my proposition needs is a rework of the HMG. The weapon is dictating the role, not the suit. Plus if the weapon had the range the suit could have things like turn penalties that would allow scouts and assaults to peel it open in CQC and being restricted from doing things like driving LAVs.
and then the most obnoxious use of the rep tool goes down 50-80% and people calm down about it.
Yes I agree +1
Closed Beta Vet
Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
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Mister Goo
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
35
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Posted - 2014.10.23 03:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bradric Banewolf wrote:I've proposed some ideas on this as well. What you said here makes sense entirely, but alas breaking up the easy mode circle jerk will not likely happen?! Too many guys are simply too simple minded, and want things to be easy.
I was in a match with this new guy to corp, and he was repping a cal assault suit?!?!? Of course we told him that that was pointless as my buddy only had around 200 armor. We told him he needed to get on his gun and shoot! His reply at that point almost made me forget who I was?! He said
"naw man I'm just trying to get the guardian points".
It took everything I had not to kick him from corp!!! I went into a rage! These are the type of mentalities you have here in the forums, and in-game. They simply hunt for crutches, and hang on for dear life?!
Now this isn't to say that all logis are like this. I run an advanced gal logi often to drop ammo and links. It is a needed role, and when done correctly it can truly turn the tide of a battle significantly. The problem is the price of some of the Logistics equipment, and equipment in general. Proto hives cost more than advanced dropsuits for something that can be elbowed?! Why does expendable dropped equipment for ammo cost 28k? I've posted threads about the market pricing of suits and equipment, and I feel the price of proto is too steep which creates a gap. More players would dare try their hand in PC if they could just afford it?!
To the point, the rep tool needs to be changed as it is long overdue for an overhaul. It is a relic, or legacy equipment if you will. It's still operating on 1st Gen tech from over 2 years ago?! It creates a mentality that is toxic to the player base?! Give the Logistics dropsuit more ehp, a bonus for carrying equipment, and force them to truly get in the fight! If they had a significant bonus to carrying the costly equipment that they carry we may see more of it! Too many battles I have seen no uplinks, searched countless meters for ammo, and can hardly pay a merc to carry a needle?! I know what all you killers out there are saying. "Where are the logis?" Well they're broke?! At best you'll get cheap militia needles, a compact nanohive or worse, and basic rep tools?! It simply cost too much?! It's cheaper to put a rep tool on an assault suit.
Some logis would actually run their logi fits if they could, but it usually means instant death?! Some are useless without their rep tools however?! I've watch some logis simply run when their heavy goes down?! They don't even try to shoot?! Even if the enemy is almost dead?! This isn't a daycare! Make them work same as everyone else, but I would say on the logis behalf that the price of equipment is far to steep at proto level?! My Gek cost less than wirykomi nanohives, and they only have 100hp?! If we want a logi to bring links, ammo, and rep tool it's gotta either cost less or produce much more isk payout. I am here to tell you that just running assault cost less?!
I support this message!
You should have kicked him. It is because of idiots like this, that we are in this predicament, as is the case in many other "crutch" items. A logi should always use his weapon to help the squad until his repair tool is needed. I will update my post on leashing didn't think of this particular instance of idiocy. but your right.
You have hit another sore point with equipment costs
Closed Beta Vet
Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
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Mister Goo
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
36
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Posted - 2014.10.23 06:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Bradric Banewolf wrote: Team work, or the lack thereof, isn't the issue. What he is suggesting will stop the influx of new players going straight into heavy or logi dropsuits because it's easy. Every role should be equally challenging, complicated, and rewarding. Changing the rep tool will cause players to have to manage their usage of the rep tool and other equipment, including their rifle!
If the proposed layout was implemented the logi could rep a heavy after an engagement, or during depending g on the situation. This would require more thinking on the part of this "team" and their "team work".
As the logi do I use the rep tool going into this door, and A: there are no enemies B: there are enemies? Do I scan before entry? Do I use nanohives instead, and fire my weapon?
As the heavy do I build my suit all armor, and depend solely on my logi? Do I add reps to my fit, and become self sufficient? Do I use shields or damage mods? Is my approach correct, or do I need to adjust my tactics?
With what has been going on with the current rep tool the assaults and scouts have to make these decisions while logis and heavies role requires no thinking, caution, or tactics?!
Giving logis their passive reps back would help compensate for the rep tool changes, but I can not condone crutch equipment for any role. When they changed the scanner I was actually happy to see it. It forced players to think about when, where, and how they applied it. Instead of just spinning in a circle every 5 seconds?!
This will separate good logis from scrub logis in an instant as the good ones will continue the path of the logibro, and the scrubs will hopefully see a challenge and quit the game?!
Your Heavy and Logi examples above are exactly what should be happening now. But probably not.
Why do you feel the repair tool should be changed? Not attacking, trying to figure out the mind set because I don't really understand. As I stated I am not opposed to a change for the betterment of my role. But not because of others feeling it is unfair because of the "easy mode" to earn WP, or because it is too hard to kill a logi/heavy or assault combination solo.
I agree that something is wrong with the current way that the Logi follows the Heavy around the battle field with repair tool on at all times refusing to shoot at the enemy because he might miss some guardian points. I fully understand your wanting a time limit on using the repair tool in this case.
Now an example of my own using proposed changes. And yes I know the numbers can be changed. Heavy and Logi decide to hold the A point on the 3 point map. Blue berries being how they are do their thing and can't manage to hold on to point B and point C and play the lemmings to try and take them back. I will use my Min proto for this example because of the 4 equipment slots. Cost is about 230,000isk Slot 1. Core Focused Repair tool for high reps. Slot 2. State needle for 100% pickups when one of the team go down. Slot 3. repair hives Slot 4. Guaged hives to be dropped as needed
With your proposed changes I can give the heavy 645 armor back every 30 seconds with the added 210 from the hive thats a total of 855 armor repaired in those 3 seconds. The heavy is going to be shooting back and shots are going to miss but an Assault rifle no mods does 370 DPS - 70 for the triage hive= 300 DPS cut it in half and its still 150 a second. He was smart and put a complex repair on his suit so he also gets antoher 9 from it. He has to wait 30 seconds to get repaired again so during this wait the logi is using his weapon to help with the other red dots coming down the hill. The result is 10 seconds later dead logi and Heavy. In less time than it takes to spawn in.
I propose a different type of change, instead of using a charge based repair tool, lower or do away with guardian points completely. Increase the amount of repair points given but lower the current hard cap for WP earned. No crutch for WP you have to stop using the repair tool for a designated time frame to start earning points again but the repairs can continue with no points earned. You can effectively support your squad, but no incentive to continually run the repair tool.
The heavy logi team will still own solo players but using team work effectively the synergy doesn't matter because the heavy is still out gunned and the repair tools are out damaged. Even the militia variants out perform the premier repair tool.
Closed Beta Vet
Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
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