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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
2156
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Posted - 2014.10.05 17:41:00 -
[31] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:I've been saying this for a very long time. I'd love to make HAVs into a team vehicle, that yes, requires a team to kill. I've often said the driver should be the front small gun, because it's limited firing arc means infantry can actually flank it.
So how about third person view? Would the physics be adjusted to make sure that tanks get zero air time, so the front gun is always on the plane with the ground, instead of bouncing all over the place? This is an exceedingly bad idea.
The primary issue with tanks has always been that a single player can wreck the entire enemy team with a HAV.
That hasn't been viable since Chromosome. And anyway, anybody that did that would get one-shot by a Marauder.
Have you been here a year?
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
2156
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Posted - 2014.10.05 17:43:00 -
[32] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:You people really know how to frack up a good thing and instances like these are part of the reason that this game has been in a negative for a long time now , because of un necessary " enhancements " that actually ruin game play then enhance it .
Leave vehicles the way that they are and leave it " optional " for the pilot's or users to equip turrets if they like and not be forced to , to have an effective fit or vehicle .
This is just a bad idea . Here's what it comes down to: Vehicles are OP. There are two good solutions. 1: Make HAVs equal in power and survivability to a dropsuit. 2: Make HAVs require multiple players, so they can be more powerful than a single dropsuit. I'm sure you like it the way it is now, but that's because the way it is now is broken and OP.
This is incredulous, stupid, and dangerous. I don't know how you got elected to CPM being so hostile to a subsection of the gameplay. This borders on lunacy.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
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Alena Ventrallis
Vengeance Unbound
Dark Taboo
1879
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Posted - 2014.10.05 18:45:00 -
[33] - Quote
Here's the thing about vehicles. If they are as effective as one dropsuit, why have them? Why not just have a dropsuit? Especially for their price which can easily triple a proto dropsuit with proto weaponry, why would it be economically feasible to run them if they have the same power as a dropsuit? We could reduce their price to dropsuit levels, but then we return to why have them at all? The solution is that vehicles must be worth more than a single dropsuit. Now, there is a point where vehicles get so much more effective than a single dropsuit that there is no reason to run a dropsuit. This is where they become OP, like tanks in 1.7. What we need is a balance that is admittedly hard to find, where a vehicle is worth more than a dropsuit, but not so much that dropsuit become obselete.
The solution, then, is to require vehicles to take more and more people to operate them, in proportion to how much more effective they are than a dropsuit. This balance is tricky, because if a 3-man tank crew is perfectly equal to 3 infantry, then we again run into why have the tank at all? The 3 man tank crew MUST therefore be more effective together in their tank than running around on the ground. But then this can become OP, because then why run 3 infantry when a 3-man tank crew is better?
The root of all these problems is VEHICLES HAVE NO DEFINED PURPOSE. There are no barricades only a tank can punch through, or an objective only reachable by drop ship. All vehicles can do is slay. That's it. So we must limit them in other areas so that a 3-man tank crew is better than 3 infantry in some ways, but 3 infantry are better than the tank crew in others.
For instance, a 3-man tank crew should have the killing power of, say, 5 infantry in terms of potential damage they can reliably cause. But the tank should suffer in acceleration and top speed, meaning they cannot chase down retreating infantry or escape a scout with remotes easily. So while a 3-man crew has more killing power than 3 infantry, those 3 infantry can more easily maneuver into position and reach areas a tank cannot. Also, the tank needs infantry support because it has difficulty escaping a scout with REs or avoiding sustained AV attack, needing the infantry to maneuver and deal with these threats to allow the tank to continue to operate.
All in all, if I as a vehicle pilot am to cost more than a dropsuit, in sp and isk, then I should be more effective than a dropsuit. But the dropsuit should have advantages over me, so we have to work together to complement our weaknesses and be stronger than the sum of our parts.
Listen to my muscle memory
Contemplate what I've been clinging to
Forty-six and two ahead of me
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3972
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Posted - 2014.10.05 19:04:00 -
[34] - Quote
Alena, you're continuing to be spot on. A tank can act as a force multiplier for the team operating it. The fact that it 'costs' three people to use, means it's three less infantry their team has on the field, while three enemy team members need to switch to AV to handle it. The fact that those three people are mildly OP while doing so also encourages the need to counter it quickly, but in the time they have said advantage, they can make progress for their team, like pushing an objective.
Spkr4theDead wrote:This is incredulous, stupid, and dangerous. I don't know how you got elected to CPM being so hostile to a subsection of the gameplay. This borders on lunacy.
In reality, I'm not hostile to anyone. I am in favor of game balance though, and those are the two viable ways to achieve it.
That being said, there's also limits to what can be done in DUST 514. I imagine due to the vehicle community, vehicles will probably continue to be a bit overpowered in DUST. (IWS was pointing at maybe 1 V = 1.5 AV as an ideal case, even though in reality, 1 V should equal 1 AV in a perfect game.) For one, actually making tanks a team vehicle would likely require a respec, because then we really would be completely changing the role of those skill points. I'd like to see it happen, but to be honest, I'm hoping it's something Legion is just designed with from the ground up.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3972
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Posted - 2014.10.05 19:06:00 -
[35] - Quote
Nothing Certain wrote:Vehicles are OP but they are acceptablly OP now. There is just something psychological involved in this. No one would argue that a dropsuit that has all the advantages a vehicle has AND had the ability to wear it over any other dropsuit was not crazily OP, but when it is a vehicle it seems appropriate.
I would agree with this. Right now it's about finding a middle ground that everyone finds playable. I would, of course, hate for tanks to become equal in power to a dropsuit, because that would be silly. Which is why I am in favor of designs pushing tanks to be teamwork-based vehicles.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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