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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3844
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Posted - 2014.09.30 07:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
I sense this theme with Molon Labe threads...
I am fine with Team Deploy as long as it is teams versus teams. A full team should never be allowed to match against a matchmaking-assembled team. Even in FW, a team deploy versus even highly skilled players will usually be a pubstomp.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3858
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Posted - 2014.09.30 14:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
I really want to see truly asymmetrical warfare, where people can use numbers to overwhelm a superior force or skill to overwhelm a larger force or what have you. But as long as you're forcing teams to be a certain size, and for one or both sides of the game to be assembled by a matchmaking system, I think you have to try for balance. And a sixteen-man team on voice comms should always beat a squad or two plus solo randoms. That isn't a good play experience for anyone.
A pubstomp isn't "competitive", nor is it "hardcore". It's easymode for the winning team, and there's no "competitive" in "no chance of winning".
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3858
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Posted - 2014.09.30 14:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:So is your vision of Dust 16 v 16 solo play with no voice communication? Is this what you want to be known for?
This is a logical fallacy called "strawman". It's where you intentionally misrepresent someone's position to make it easier to criticize.
I am strongly in favor of players being able to play the game the way they want to. Whether that be as a squad, solo, casual, or hardcore player. Whether it's scamming or stealing, loyal to the cause or following whoever offers the highest paycheck, whatever. Forcing people to play "the Thor Odinson way" is not a game change I support.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3858
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Posted - 2014.09.30 14:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
Would love a free roam mode, but I think something like that for DUST 514 as opposed to Legion is probably a dream that will never come true. The ability to just have as many people as you want land at a facility would be amazing. (And would make planetary conquest a workable mechanic instead of a joke.)
I never said I'm against a team deploy mode that can be partaken at any time. Notice my first post in the thread is in support of it. But I think team deploy teams should be fighting other team deploy teams in matchmaking. Maybe if a team deploys a couple short, the matchmaking could assemble randoms to fill out the ranks, but a full team deployment should, at bare minimum, be matched against a team deploy that is also larger than a single squad.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3861
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Posted - 2014.09.30 16:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Being in FacWar doesn't make it any less likely to be a pubstomp. If there is no attempt at balance, then there's no challenging gameplay for anyone. Just a bad experience for both teams.
The main "restriction" that's at fault, is the 16 player team limit. If it was possible to pit an organized team against perhaps a slightly larger number of randoms to compensate, it might be possible to balance.
The reason EVE balance isn't relevant here, is because in EVE you can swarm/outnumber an opponent, but DUST makes this impossible. Trying to make the EVE sov system work in DUST (planetary conquest) largely failed for the same reason.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3861
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Posted - 2014.09.30 16:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Just another area that he fails to see the potential benefit to newer players. Give the more experienced players something shinier to do and it will allow more room for new and/or casual players in pubs.
Strongly wishing to encourage veterans to play in FacWar. That does, in part require ensuring FacWar is a satisfying, challenging, and rewarding experience. I do want to get vets out of pubs.
And I'm not opposed to team deploy. If team deploys in FacWar were pitted against other team deploys, you would have essentially the old corp battles system (which was the old FacWar system) running on the new FacWar system.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3864
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Posted - 2014.09.30 17:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:If you limited it to team vs team without any room for fill ins then you'd end up with lopsided matches due to disconnects, etc. You'd also end up with annoying long queue times which is hard to imagine given the long queue times currently.
Actually, if you did this thing called "reading my posts", I specifically suggested that matchmaking would still be used to fill teams where the team deploy was short of 16 people. Say if one used team deploy to deploy two squads of six, or had 14 people, or whatever.
Mobius Kaethis wrote:Thor is making very good points here.
Thor might make good points if he read posts. But he didn't, so he isn't.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3871
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Posted - 2014.09.30 18:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:Oh you misunderstood me. I was referring to Thor's second paragraph where he points out that you are very down on the ideas of others without generating any meaningful alternatives other than claiming we are wrong. I've yet to see someone agree with you about this actually. As CPM aren't you supposed to represent the community? Currently your doing a very poor job of it.
The funny thing is where I keep having to point out how I suggested alternatives or thoughts that nobody read or everyone ignored. ;) The same thing happened in the "auto-squad" thread where I had suggested a much easier way to auto-form squads (but not removing solo queue capability) like three pages prior to any acknowledgement of it.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3874
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Posted - 2014.09.30 20:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:As CPM aren't you supposed to represent the community? Currently your doing a very poor job of it.
I see this comment every time I disagree with someone. Let me explain:
My job is to collect user feedback from the community and pass it on to CCP. Part of that job is also to filter that feedback. Which yes, entirely means I can not pass on your idea because it's really dumb. (Or, in this case, because another CPM mentions your idea on a weekly basis, so me doing it too is largely redundant.) My job is an entirely one way communication method where I tell CCP stuff. (I actually have no obligation to talk to anyone or post on the forums at all, but arguably talking to people helps you get more feedback, so I feel it's pretty useful.)
My job is, at no point, to agree with you on the forums. I'm not sure why anyone would think this is a thing. I honestly am kinda scared of the fact that you may think you're voting in agreement lackeys who will just agree with you because you and three of your corp members who stand the most to benefit from the change agree with each other. (600 man corp? Team deploy where you're not pitted against another team would be pretty useful for you, I admit. Your whole corp would have an easy farming method.) I am a player, and my own person with my own opinions, ideas, and thoughts. Some people voted for me because they think I have halfway decent thoughts.
You aren't privy to what I pass on or don't pass on as feedback, or what does or doesn't make it to those conversations, so to be blunt, you have no idea how well I am or not doing my job. (This is a bad thing, IMHO, and hopefully when the summit comes around, we can have real meeting minutes so people can see how much people contribute, but I digress.)
Don't treat me like I'm your yes man. I'm not, and I never will be.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3884
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Posted - 2014.10.01 21:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Atiim, I don't think it's "nefarious evil secret plot" in that I think they're incredibly overt about it. ;) If you want to drum up support for something and not make it look like a corp agenda, at least use like... alts or something.
But the problem is... teams versus not teams, the teams will always win. This means that groups that can easily deploy teams (like the 600-man Molon Labe, which I am hesitant to call a coincidence) will have an incredible and distinct advantage over other players.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3886
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Posted - 2014.10.01 22:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
You want to make FacWar more like PC, Mobius. Here's the problem: PC sucks. It died as a game mode. Why? Because it wasn't designed competently, and you're promoting the primary problem it has.
This has nothing to do with solo players (or your corp's crusade for auto-squadding), it's about anyone who can't guarantee their corp has 16 people on every time they queue. The list of corps that can do that is likely limited to two or three. Your own corp being one of them. So your corp will profit immensely, whereas corps that get five or six people on at once get stomped by you every time.
If you want real challenge, solid gameplay, you would support me. Teams versus teams. Great gameplay people can get at any time of the day.
But you want to be able to stomp, you want FacWar to be hardmode for everyone else, and easymode for Molon Labe. Because that's what you're advocating.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3886
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Posted - 2014.10.01 22:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
And stop trying to strawman and represent me as against team deploy. I'm for it. I'm against enabling Molon to farm randoms via your insistence that teams not have to face other actual teams.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3886
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Posted - 2014.10.02 00:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:I am in no way trying to mis-represent your opinion. You are clearly trying to segregate FW into two different game modes, which is inherently wrong when FW is supposed to be more challenging, and more of a sandbox. Your proposal to separate teams from solo players has no place in a sandbox where player interactions and choices need to be freed from the handholding and protectionism of public matches. Low sec vs high sec and all that.
I am fine with the FW queue filling in incomplete teams with smaller groups or solo players, but the problem is very simply that team deploy versus squads not team deployed is not gameplay. It's a stomp. Enabling a design that will render FacWar the same is PC is not a good idea. And by same problem as PC, I meant, a design that excludes all but a few top end corps.
Vulpes concept for PC is certainly what PC needs to be, but it won't happen in DUST. As Vulpes says, it needs PvE content. And that's Legion. Unfortunately, Planetary Conquest was designed with PvE in mind, which never happened, and Faction Warfare was designed with the market in mind, which also never happened.
I think a mode to directly challenge another corp without having a district involved would be amazing too, Vulpes. Some pretty big wagers came out of the old corp battle system back in the day.
The problem is that FacWar can't be an all out war without balance. Look at EVE sovereignty, where there is no balance. War doesn't happen anymore. The game is stagnant because the game was designed in a way that prevented competition. There's no good reason to go to war, and there's no way to win a war even if you tried. FacWar will become the same if no consideration for balance is made.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3886
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Posted - 2014.10.02 02:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
I would argue that the reason FW still works with queue sync is something that would change with your proposal. Namely, that there's generally still a good chance right now of not ending up pitted against a full team. You want to make team deploying a lot more popular, which would change that atmosphere drastically. Because yes, as of now, every time I've seen a queue sync in FW, the queue sync wins. If anything, it's proof of the problem you aim to magnify. Making it simpler, and particularly much faster to do, leading to more team queues, leading to more being stomped if you aren't in a team queue, leading to less quality non-teams in FW.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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