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BL4CKST4R
La Muerte Eterna
Dark Taboo
3155
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Posted - 2014.09.28 04:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Heavies and Scouts
The current meta of the game is heavies and scouts, with mediums thrown in for extra points. It is easy to see why heavies and scouts are just better than anything else, but it is difficult to create a solution. But if we can understand the cause of the problem, we can maybe get closer to finding a solution, and a step closer towards balance.
This is my reasoning as to why the current meta is such.
To create balance, in a simple statement, everything must have a counter, and that counter must have a counter. For example, the counter to Microwarpdrive is a warp jammer, and the counter to a jammer is a warp core stabalizer. Simple. In Dust we have and had the foundation for such balance, but we lack now it and lost it then. In Dust, in it's current state, heavies (hmg heavies) counter almost everything (shotty scouts) along with themselves and scouts counter everything along with themselves, while commando-heavies and medium suits are just thrown in the mix to fulfill a role that is, well taken already.
The situation goes deeper as we find that some suits have specific and obvious roles that cannot be met due to the imbalance
of the meta. Roles that the purpose of which was that they could only perform them have been taken up by suits who's true purpose have been obscured. Equally the roles that are meant to be fulfileld are so narrow that it leaves no room for variation, your either the best for that role or your not.
For example:
>A heavy suit is considered a CQC suit... so is an Assault suit, specially the Gallente and Minmatar, yet it is fairly obvious which is the better of the two for the role. Any suit who goes toe to toe with a heavy, regardless if both have the same "role" the heavy wins.
>A scout is considered a tactical EWAR suit, with team support and intel gathering built in, but so is a Logistics again it is obvious which one perform the better role. Not only that but scouts perform this role passively leaving room for other, functions like better damage output, or the fabled Logi-scouts. Any suit who tries to have EWAR like a scout (Gal logi Active scanners) is going to find the scout to be far superior at the role.
I can continue on with this list, but basically the majority of all roles available in the field can be done, and over accomplished by two suits leaving mediocrity to be shared amongst the rest. One might even ask, what is the true purpose of a Sentinel, what is the true purpose of an Assault, the answers will never be the same because the purpose of each and every suit has been merged into this mess that we call our Meta.
As I recall from my times in beta a heavy suit was purposed as a tactical defense unit, low mobility and team dependent; an Assault suit was the suit purposed with breaching this defense wall, or defending its weak spots able to out maneuver the heavy and lay down heavy damage to an unprepared group; and the scouts purpose was to prevent the Assault from doing so, by either using stealth techniques to slow down the enemy, using superior reconnaissance to alert his team, or overwhelming the Assaults with their superior speed, finding themselves at bay vs a heavy due to their superior damage and ROF. This was, in theory, balance. Simply put, Scouts > Assaults > Heavies > Scouts. Then thrown in the mix where the Logistics whose sole purpose was the buff the aspects of each, a group of Assaults with a Logistics would have an easier time breaching an objective, a group of scouts with a Logistics had superior intel, and we can see what a Logistic and a heavy can do now.
In my opinion we need to go back to the roots that founded this game, the majestic triage of balance that has built the meta of our parent game EVE, a balance that remains to this day and continues to change; the balance that, for a brief period, although a difficult one, was leading the future of this game.
tl;dr :
1) give every suit a specific role, that only they can accomplish
2) give every suit a counter, and a counter to their counter
3) give every role a purpose on the field, unsurpassed by another. So that when preparing a squad, the most optimal choice is not 6 heavies or 6 scouts, but a mixture of every class and role, because each one has an essential purpose in the field
** Yeah I know scouts destroyed heavies in Beta but thats because CCP didn't, and hasn't, added inertia to movement.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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LUGMOS
YELLOW JESUS EXP FORCE
635
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Posted - 2014.09.28 05:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
I think with the ttk how it is right now is what hurts balance. Why would you ever die so fast in a "tactical" shooter?
Quafe
A question doesn't always have an answer, but a problem does,
So what is DUST? A problem or a question?
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BL4CKST4R
La Muerte Eterna
Dark Taboo
3155
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Posted - 2014.09.28 05:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
LUGMOS wrote:I think with the ttk how it is right now is what hurts balance. Why would you ever die so fast in a "tactical" shooter?
Well the TTK isn't to crazy, it depends on the weapon and suit tier. A heavy obviously takes an extremely long time to kill, but his TTK against you is a blink of an eye, same with the shotgun in the hands of a scout. Other than that the average TTK is about 2 seconds which is fairly long considering in most FPS you die in 3 shots, even tactical ones, of course tactical also require the use of tactics a feature Dust is truly lacking at the moment.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
5302
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Posted - 2014.09.28 05:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:... give every role a purpose on the field, unsurpassed by another. So that when preparing a squad, the most optimal choice is not 6 heavies or 6 scouts, but a mixture of every class and role.[/u]
I agree very much with this statement, and I believe we're getting closer and closer to seeing this realized.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Crimson ShieId
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
958
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Posted - 2014.09.28 07:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
I'd say the balance issues a lot of people see in this game aren't due entirely to the way the suits work, but to the way the game modes play out and the map design. Sure, scouts can fill a lot of rolls, and heavies wreck in CQC, but the issues that arise there with other suits getting left in the Dust could likely be changed by altering the way the game modes worked. In most cases, your standard match involves a bunch of people getting in vehicles, getting to a point, dropping uplinks and ammo, then holding that point. Things never move, so a heavy's slow speed is never a factor, and when it is, they can just call in a LAV. Scouts, on the other hand, get decimated in open terrain, but most objectives have plenty of cover, and a lot of the domination and Skirmish sockets are indoors, meaning scouts with shotguns can kill just about everything, hide when necessary, then keep on killing.
If we had game modes that progressed, like Battlefield's Rush mode, or Skirmish 1.0, we might see less of this "meta" and more diversity. Getting rid of certain things like uplinks in these modes could also help, make CRU's available at strategic points and such, have more open stretches, bunkers for the defenders, give them time to set up while the attackers move in. Scouts would be useless in head on assaults, getting picked off by snipers, and heavies would be too slow, but the scouts could move around, flanking wide to eventually come up behind the enemy and cause some chaos while the assaults and commandos pushed in through the front lines. Once CRU's were captured, heavies could spawn, helping clear out buildings and such while the scouts continued to do their work, picking off targets around objectives... ugh... always end up missing Mag when I start thinking like this... *Bangs head against a wall and sighs*
Point is, I believe this issue of balance could be solved a lot easier with better map design as the only way to truly give a suit a roll in a game like Dust is to nerf other competing suits until they can't perform that roll at all or are extremely bad at it.
Nova Knives are best sidearm.
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The Master Race
Immortal Guides
46
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Posted - 2014.09.28 08:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
I think a lot of people come from fps instead of mmos and have no idea about balance or really even team play; the reason we get sooo much don't nerf me bro on the forums when it is obviously needed.
New, delicious, Soylent green the miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.
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Izlare Lenix
Vengeance Unbound
Dark Taboo
994
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Posted - 2014.09.28 11:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
I do believe dust is the most balanced it has ever been right now.
However, the biggest hindrance to balance is the maps. Almost all of the objective based maps highly encourage and often force players into cqc scenarios. This is why heavies and scouts are dominant because cqc is their domain.
Gun control is not about guns...it's about control.
The only way to ensure freedom is by having the means to defend it.
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Syeven Reed
Sebiestor Field Sappers
884
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Posted - 2014.09.28 11:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
My Mini assault kills everything quite well. :)
Word Crimes
EvE - 21 Day Buddy Trial
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Mex-0
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
66
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Posted - 2014.09.28 11:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
I thought CCP made it like this so people could have some options for customization.
Dedicated Scout and Nova Knifer.
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BL4CKST4R
La Muerte Eterna
Dark Taboo
3159
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Posted - 2014.09.28 12:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:... give every role a purpose on the field, unsurpassed by another. So that when preparing a squad, the most optimal choice is not 6 heavies or 6 scouts, but a mixture of every class and role ...
I agree very much with the statement above, and I believe we're getting closer and closer to seeing this realized. At no point in the history of Uprising have we been closer to balance.
I believe one final pass to just overall balance with a goal of defining the role of each suit, their weapons, and vehicles, then looking at how each role will play within the boundaries of the game in it's current state and we could say a major improvement in the game. (easier said than done) The buff-nerf cycle that rattati has been implementing has been working, but without a direction (not to say he doesn't have one) the cycle will continue to go on forever, or it will just end abruptly and incomplete.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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Leadfoot10
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1571
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Posted - 2014.09.28 12:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
IMO, assaults deserve more of a buff. Perhaps damage and even speed.
Scouts (gal and to a lesser exten cal) need a bit of a nerf.
I think heavies are about right.
However, I do think TTK is getting a bit too low, IMO.
All of the above said, this game is pretty close, infantry-wise, and continues to improve. |
Asirius Medaius
Asmedaius
1120
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 12:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
Just came back after a 5-month break from the game, cause I wanted to wait for Project Legion to come out, and I think it's funny that this game is still broken.
Anyway, Star Citizen is looking to have insane potential (#1 highest crowd-funded project, ever); be sure to check out RobertsSpaceIndustries.com if you want to see how a real sci-fi universe will be created (unless you're unfortunate enough to only have a PS3). |
Bahirae Serugiusu
Vendetta Reactionary Force
148
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Posted - 2014.09.28 12:18:00 -
[13] - Quote
I love my assault but god it blows. There is no role for it heavies can do everything better then we can, if you want damage go Commando, if you want speed go Scout, if you want to able to storm an objective or hold it go Sentinel. Assault really is just cannon foder and I really don't see that ever changing. |
BL4CKST4R
La Muerte Eterna
Dark Taboo
3161
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Posted - 2014.09.28 12:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mex-0 wrote:I thought CCP made it like this so people could have some options for customization.
This is true but in the past we had more, for example you could make a Logistics a good slayer, you could make an Assault a good Logi (they had 2eq slots before). Of course at that time heavies and scouts were in a bad place.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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Asirius Medaius
Asmedaius
1121
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Posted - 2014.09.28 12:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Mex-0 wrote:I thought CCP made it like this so people could have some options for customization. This is true but in the past we had more, for example you could make a Logistics a good slayer, you could make an Assault a good Logi (they had 2eq slots before). Of course at that time heavies and scouts were in a bad place.
Yeah, I thought after leaving the game before Fanfest, they would get their act together and make this game good by then. God, how I miss things in Chromosome.
Thankfully, I have games to look forward to, and none of them belong to CCP. |
XxVEXESxX
31
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Posted - 2014.09.28 14:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
Couldn't agree more. Logi equipment is still powerful in the hands of any other player. Bring 3 scouts and you have more dps and equal capabilities of a logi since their suits do it all naturally. Hives past adv are barely needed. The burst hmg and scouts killed the rep tool at cqc. Ewar is a joke unless your minmatar or scout. Dps is either commando, hmg or shotgun/bolt.
Sticking to a playstyle for over a year to feel unrewarded and just outplayed by the games nature can be very disheartening. Choose your path wisely.
PSN: XxVEXESxX
Minmatar loyalist
Dropsuit Upgrades level 5
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Joel II X
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
3671
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Posted - 2014.09.28 15:28:00 -
[17] - Quote
Minmatar Assault > ALL |
One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
4464
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Posted - 2014.09.28 17:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
First of all, excellent post. Very well thought out, rational, and devoid of QQ while bringing up legit points.
It is my own opinion it comes down to 3 points.
1) Shared passive scans.
Most people agree this is a problem, minus some outliers. This gives the Heavies, who should essentially be tacnet blind except to maybe other Heavies, the ability to see Assaults and undampened scouts in the area when they have a scout buddy on their squad.
It will be hard to get balance without getting rid of shared passives.
2) Assaults should have superior regeneration. I think this needs to consider HP in that it really doesn't make any difference if a scout with 400 or less HP has good regen as they are easily killed in most circumstances.
Assaults should be masters at cover fire and sustained fights using cover. Having enough HP that they don't die too quickly in many engagements and can recover to return to the fight.
Heavies should have the HP to sustain damage and take Assualts straight up, but not be able to regen enough that an Assault using cover wisely shouldn't have a chance to take them down (unless the Heavy has good gun game and doesn't just spray and pray).
3) Repairers need more "waves of opportunity." They shouldn't just be able to go right behind a heavy repping all the way just in case they stumble on an engagement. It should be a conscious timely effort that takes some skill. This would also reward Logis as they would be able to better carry multiple reppers better than a scout, and would result in scouts being less Logi Lights.
You can always tell a Millford Minja
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Orphan Shadow
Waiting For Deployment
117
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Posted - 2014.09.28 18:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:3) Repairers need more "waves of opportunity." They shouldn't just be able to go right behind a heavy repping all the way just in case they stumble on an engagement. It should be a conscious timely effort that takes some skill. This would also reward Logis as they would be able to better carry multiple reppers better than a scout, and would result in scouts being less Logi Lights.
Interesting idea! Bringing vehicle mod mechanics to Dropsuit fittings. You should post that in feedback for Rattati, if it hasn't been done already. That could add some serious depth and challenge to the game, and it's meta. |
One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
4468
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Posted - 2014.09.28 18:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
Orphan Shadow wrote:One Eyed King wrote:3) Repairers need more "waves of opportunity." They shouldn't just be able to go right behind a heavy repping all the way just in case they stumble on an engagement. It should be a conscious timely effort that takes some skill. This would also reward Logis as they would be able to better carry multiple reppers better than a scout, and would result in scouts being less Logi Lights. Interesting idea! Bringing vehicle mod mechanics to Dropsuit fittings. You should post that in feedback for Rattati, if it hasn't been done already. That could add some serious depth and challenge to the game, and it's meta.
I am pretty sure someone already said it, as I definitely didn't come up with that on my own. I just don't remember who or where.
You can always tell a Millford Minja
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