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Vell0cet
Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo
2305
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Posted - 2014.09.30 06:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
The main issue with this is the shear size would make it feel very empty. If you have thousands of massive open world planets, 99.999% of the in game territory would be empty. If you look at EVE with its sizable player base, many constellations have only a handful of players in them. Think about how many dozens of planets are in those systems. Now imagine the pilots were mercs, and each of those planets had a massive amount of procedurally generated terrain. It would be a ghost town...everywhere. The only time you'd see other players is if you joined a match, grouped up with other players, had some sort of objective that drew people in, or if there were certain planets that became the de facto hangout for good fights.
This is a major reason I have doubts about an "open world" approach for Legion. Either the worlds are going to be tiny/contrived for each planet (like in Mass Effect where each deployable area was a tiny percent of the actual planet/moon), or they're going to have massive areas to play but only have a handful of planets to fight on. Neither solution is all that appealing.
I love the terrain types, and much of the vision though. I can't wait for diverse environments in New Eden. I'd love to fight on sockets from wrecked EVE ships/drones. I'd love to see explosions overhead from a battle in EVE, see debris enter the atmosphere as a bunch of meteorites and then have the racially styled debris violently crash onto the battlefield as you're playing. It would really help players appreciate the scale of EVE ships.
It would be cool though if you could build a base on the surface of a random planet after spending days hunting for just the right spot. Setup a shield, fill the bay with strontium, arrange turrets, Ewar turrets, a hanger with a fleet of defensive drones. Build some kind of resource collection facility and watch your drones (or slaves) laboring away. Go visit other player's surface bases. Blow up/capture others with friends.
I'd love to fight in wrecked stations with 0 gravity in dark corridors (similar to Deadspace) with a squad of friends and an EVE pilot assisting/coordinating from space fighting against drones in a PvE "Dungeon." I've got a detailed version of this in the thread linked in my sig.
I'd love to fight on a New Eden version of "cloud city," or on naval maps on ocean planets with surface platforms, surface and submarine vehicles, and submerged wrecks at the sea bottom. The possibilities really are incredible. CCP would need to radically alter their pace for creating content though. I don't know where the bottleneck is in their process, if they're just starved for artists/modelers, if the existing ones were totally incompetent, they were just so horribly managed that they weren't able to focus on one thing and ship it (e.g. Caldari production facility, Minmatar trade hub, taking 6 months for the CR/RR, OR NEARLY 12 for the missing heavy and scout suits) or what, but something would have to change in a massive way for the content to start churning out.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Vell0cet
Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo
2306
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Posted - 2014.09.30 14:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Vell0cet wrote:The main issue with this is the shear size would make it feel very empty. If you have thousands of massive open world planets, 99.999% of the in game territory would be empty. If you look at EVE with its sizable player base, many constellations have only a handful of players in them. Think about how many dozens of planets are in those systems. Now imagine the pilots were mercs, and each of those planets had a massive amount of procedurally generated terrain. It would be a ghost town...everywhere. The only time you'd see other players is if you joined a match, grouped up with other players, had some sort of objective that drew people in, or if there were certain planets that became the de facto hangout for good fights.
This is a major reason I have doubts about an "open world" approach for Legion. Either the worlds are going to be tiny/contrived for each planet (like in Mass Effect where each deployable area was a tiny percent of the actual planet/moon), or they're going to have massive areas to play but only have a handful of planets to fight on. Neither solution is all that appealing.
I love the terrain types, and much of the vision though. I can't wait for diverse environments in New Eden. I'd love to fight on sockets from wrecked EVE ships/drones. I'd love to see explosions overhead from a battle in EVE, see debris enter the atmosphere as a bunch of meteorites and then have the racially styled debris violently crash onto the battlefield as you're playing. It would really help players appreciate the scale of EVE ships.
It would be cool though if you could build a base on the surface of a random planet after spending days hunting for just the right spot. Setup a shield, fill the bay with strontium, arrange turrets, Ewar turrets, a hanger with a fleet of defensive drones. Build some kind of resource collection facility and watch your drones (or slaves) laboring away. Go visit other player's surface bases. Blow up/capture others with friends.
I'd love to fight in wrecked stations with 0 gravity in dark corridors (similar to Deadspace) with a squad of friends and an EVE pilot assisting/coordinating from space fighting against drones in a PvE "Dungeon." I've got a detailed version of this in the thread linked in my sig.
I'd love to fight on a New Eden version of "cloud city," or on naval maps on ocean planets with surface platforms, surface and submarine vehicles, and submerged wrecks at the sea bottom. The possibilities really are incredible. CCP would need to radically alter their pace for creating content though. I don't know where the bottleneck is in their process, if they're just starved for artists/modelers, if the existing ones were totally incompetent, they were just so horribly managed that they weren't able to focus on one thing and ship it (e.g. Caldari production facility, Minmatar trade hub, taking 6 months for the CR/RR, OR NEARLY 12 for the missing heavy and scout suits) or what, but something would have to change in a massive way for the content to start churning out. Well I know this is expansive but this idea is to be implemented over a range of updates/expansions and the methodology or plan of pace should be covered in construction. Quickly in short, temperate will be the first planet out the door with 2-3 locals at the start. As every expansion comes out a new planet with two locals will be introduced with +1 local to the planet with the fewest number of them. Zone borders open up on all previous PVE places as new locals are added. Every New Local will have a finer tuned PVP matchmade map set to ship with it as well. Weather can be shipped independently as they get done. Planetary effects will be the first ones brought in and should ship with the planet. I get that it would obviously be rolled out over many years, that would be a given.
So you picture this being like Everquest with zones that border each other with loading screens in between instead of one massive contiguous open world for each planet where the terrain types flow into each other like Minecraft? It would certainly be easier to implement that approach, although you'd lose the ability to hop into a dropship and just start flying in a random direction for a while, looking for cool features/areas to explore. You wouldn't be able to see a city off on the horizon and feel like you could fly to it. Would each zone be roughly rectangular with contrived borders like the original WoW? Would there be redlines to mark boundaries? Invisible walls? How big are these zones? If we're going to have fighters, zones need to be massive to accommodate high-speed maneuvering and dogfighting, otherwise you'll be constantly circling around the perimeter and it'll feel very confining and artificial.
Assuming we do have massive zones and 2-3 per temperate planet, times 7,200 temperate planets in New Eden, and you have more virtual square footage in New Eden than any other MMO by several orders of magnitude, and that's before the expansions. I reiterate my concern that New Eden would feel very barren, like a lonely single-player ghost-town. It's a very tricky problem to get that balance right, simply because New Eden is already so huge.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Vell0cet
Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo
2306
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Posted - 2014.09.30 14:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I went with zone borders saves us the trouble of having to make planet sized maps; though you can still advertise in the distant land box where the zone border or transitioner would take you.
Zone borders in open world mode would be more of a yellow zone stay in it too long and you then automatically transition to the next zone though some maps may have choke pointed area.
Loading Screens will be hidden by animations luckily (You walk into your VAN and an RDV picks it up to transition it)
As for the lack of people option eve online space already suffers for that but also doesn't suffer for the following reasons. 1. Players give purpose. 2. A culmination of perfect conditions makes the place popular. 3. Lay of the land makes it strategically important.
Now relying on these three means that 'there will always be places that nobody ever visits' which is fine, some folks like to be left alone and do things without anyone screwing with them... hopefully. This also may create the condition of crowding in some of the more popular areas.
But lets modify the 3 for our needs
1. Players give purpose - Purely Dust 514 alone this would mean setting up a corp HQ, building your base and changing the layout of your base, the function of your base, and now you have to run and maintain this base and keep it protected. You have now given this zone a purpose, its home, its your money maker, or its your safe haven vacation spot after a long day's of grueling mercenary work. This is also where Eve online has the MOST room to wedge itself into for future link.
Industrial player sets up a mission - Help my PI extractor work. mission could be randomized from simply fixing the damn thing, killing saboteurs, or heck nothing at all than to baby sit it.
Military minded players could set it up so that they can tap into the military equipment surface side or facilitate the installation of it.
2. This can be done by modifying NPC populations, Events, Security status, Planet numbers in system/constellation/region, or nearby market hub for the rarer materials or NPC services, or even better player services.
3. And finally strategic importance. Dust side it could be as simple as taking out an HAV factory that is making cheap tanks for your enemies.
With Eve Involved - Plasma Planets for example could be the only planet type that can host a System wide cyno-jammer, It is a plasma planet in a solar system perfectly placed that no other nearby star system allows jumping access into the defender's constellation; the heavens and earth will move to try to take this jammer out. Expect multiple invasions and orbital fights to bombard that structure into nothing or capture it with foot soldiers in the respites between bombardments.
There are also other ways to make players visit the places often as well. One example is to make the Salvage Game Mode use the open world zones despite that you are going there through queues. Another possibility is making the PVP NPC matches also take place in open world zones (to facilitate this, the map will always have x number of players reserved for this function so that no matter how many third party folks are there the two teams can still duke it out with full members)
Pvping players may wind up in a neat zone and go; dude I want to go back. Dial in System Planet Zone and you're back in that area for open world and free to do whatever.
Another thing we can do is populate only few of the planets, not ever planet needs a zone yet or may not get one until conditions are met (lacks elevator for example) Some zones only open or close depending on condition (all Starbase and Station Zones for example only open when vulnerable) There are many many many tools and tricks to help the zones feel a bit more alive even if you are the only one there as well.
Those are some good ideas. How big do you picture each zone? How long could you fly in a fighter at top speed before hitting the yellow zone?
Best PvE idea ever!
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Vell0cet
Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo
2306
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Posted - 2014.09.30 18:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
So on these planets where you're the only one on them, what do you expect players to do? I see you mentioned missioning, are there other activities? will these planets have fauna? If so how will that work? with thousands of different planets and dozens of different biomes, how do you handle creating a diverse wild population? Drones work everywhere of course, but shooting the same handful of enemy AI types will get old pretty fast. To build a massive volume of interesting/diverse creatures would be impossibly labor intensive. If we don't have these it might feel weird to walk around on planets with lush environments, completely devoid of animal life, or NPC human life, and equally weird to walk around on different planets across the far corners of New Eden all with the same species of animals.
Regarding missions, I think the best way to handle this is to crowdsource them. Ideally CCP could release a separate app with a mission designer tool in it. It would allow us to place enemy NPC's, create triggers, write dialogue, etc. The community could build missions and upload them to the test server. Every month we could vote on the best few and CCP would edit/approve them to be patched into the game. In this way, we could have a huge variety of missions that build up over time. It would take advantage of the creativity of the player base and offload much of the work from the Dev team. I think this should be done with EVE as well btw. If the engine was designed from the start with this in mind, it would make things a lot easier than trying to shoehorn it into existing code.
Please don't take any of my posts as being negative. I'm really passionate about this concept and I've thought a lot about it myself. I had a lot of hard questions to solve and I was curious how you solved them. Overall I really love your ideas.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Vell0cet
Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo
2309
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Posted - 2014.10.01 04:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
JIMvc2 wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:JIMvc2 wrote:Hopefully this gets implemented into Dust. Instead of the Legion and Dust teams being separate, why not work together on both games. Its unfair how most effort goes to Legion but not Dust. Legion footage looks great I mean the OB strike = WOW.
CCP shouldn't abandon Dust because we the Community created Dust with all this Feedback. If it wasn't for the feedback then right now there wouldn't of been a 1.8 and we would of been stuck with 1.7.
Keep it going Iron Wolf Saber !! Keep in mind that this is IWS's vision for Legion's open world. It's not necessarily reflecting that of CCP's overall plan. Its DAME unfair how Legion gets all the fun stuff while Dust doesn't. I don't like using bad language but its just unfair. Look at other games. They have alot of stuff but in Dust oh no it can't because have Minmatar and Amar HAV, Dropship, LAV, ect..and maps because its limited. Was MAG limited when it was released NO, how about The Last of Us NO, Killzone 3 NO, or how about the Uncharted series Effin NOPE. I can keep going and going about how the ps3 is a console that has been pushed and that's what Dust needs to do. Push it to the limit, use every thing in the ps3 system and in the end Boom its possible. I completely agree that the missing racial vehicles, turrets and heavy weapons should get added to DUST. It's a smart business decision, and I hope after a few more months of hotfixes, CCP will make the decision to bring them to us.
As far as PvE, Drones, big maps, huge fights, it's simply not possible with the current resources on the PS3 hardware. That's an unfortunate fact. Also the console approval process seriously impedes CCP's ability to release timely updates or have a test server. The PC will be able to evolve with the game going forward. It's the right decision, as sad as that reality is. Fairness really doesn't come into play, it's simply how it is.
Best PvE idea ever!
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