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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3450
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Posted - 2014.09.22 15:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:What reason do you need to shoot 50% faster than someone else? What reason do you need vehicles nerfed and AV buffed in the same hotfix?
Because ADS was just that OP. o_O
That being said, there's also a benefit in ensuring newer pilots and more veteran pilots aren't 50% damage different. It's harder to balance for such a wide swing of capabilities. Namely that with such a wide variance of rate of fire, either the newbie will be useless or the veteran will be overpowered. With a smaller difference in the skill bonus, the entire class is easier to balance for.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3456
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Posted - 2014.09.22 17:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Derrith Erador wrote:Yes, actually. If reds are unwilling to do anything about me, they deserve to get killed by me, or one of my squad mates. And I'm actually agreeing with a beta forge killing me, do you know why? Because forging actually takes skill.
Swarms may require less skill to fire, but they're an incredibly crippled weapon. They can only fire if you're in an incredibly short lock range, and since they're the only weapon in the game that cannot kill other infantry, swarm players are extremely vulnerable at all times on the battlefield. Coupled with their wimpy amount of damage they do on the rare occasion they hit your dropship... yeah.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3457
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Posted - 2014.09.22 17:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
ACT1ON BASTARD wrote:Its a 45% difference in rof thats a huge change.Did you guys even test it or you just playing number games.
I do not have a test server, nor am I a game developer. CCP tests the hotfixes though.
Derrith Erador wrote:They're getting an acceleration buff in Delta, that buff almost ensures that over 50% of the time an ADS hovering will get hit hardcore by that swarmer, it may not kill us unless we're stupid, but that's the price we pay for being stupid.
And on swarmers being defenseless.
1) good, hire a bodyguard, teamwork is OP.
If it doesn't kill you, it might not be buffed enough. Dropships should actually die sometimes. Shocker, I know.
Suggesting teamwork says the vehicle pilot who doesn't need teamwork to top the scoreboard. That's the inherent problem of vehicles: They allow a single player to be powerful enough to require teamwork to take them down, while requiring no teamwork on their part.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3464
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Posted - 2014.09.22 18:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:I think everyone should refrain from jumping off of anything though. Rattati has shown to tweak tweaks if he doesn't get them right.
He is very good about revisiting fixes that go too far or not far enough.
Derrith Erador wrote:Dropships should die sometimes eh? sure, but I guess you'd like to conveniently forget that swarms should also die too, especially if the role of an ADS is to kill infantry (which, by the way, it is). In your words, shocker, I know.
And suggesting teamwork to take down a vehicle, which is supposed to be a force multiplier, is perfectly reasonable, especially when my comment saying "hire a bodyguard" is mainly to keep him from dying from foot soldiers. And even if he didn't have a friend, he could skill into what I recommended previously, that you conveniently left out, the strange life form known as the commando. You know, I've heard rumors that inside the species known as commandoughious, there is a subspecies known as minmando, that offers... wait for it... a damage buff to swarms and projectile weapons! Who would've thought that investing your SP wisely would get you something? (and if you've ever tried a minmando, you'll know you don't need teamwork to kill noob pilots)
Swarms die a lot. It's easy to blow through 2 mil ISK in proto swarms just trying to *deter* and be unable to kill, a single ADS. It's ridiculously expensive, and we get nothing for it. Yes, ADS should kill most infantry, but they should die to AV. Vehicles > Infantry > AV (which die to infantry a LOT) > Vehicles. That's your triangle.
When you see AV on the field, you should be coordinating with infantry on your team to clear the way for you. The problem is, your notion that your class as a force multiplier simply means you should be better than players who chose a different class. I am all for teamwork. So why doesn't the ADS require teamwork?
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3467
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Posted - 2014.09.22 18:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
Derrith, you're still talking about being "locked off from an area".
Have you ever, you know, "died"?
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3472
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Posted - 2014.09.22 19:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
Derrith Erador wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:Derrith, you're still talking about being "locked off from an area".
Have you ever, you know, "died"? Yes, when I actually go in those areas, which I'm not dumb enough to do unless absolutely necessary.
Now, on the opposite, consider that as a swarm launcher user, I can be instakilled anywhere by a shotgunner, HMG, combat rifle, nova knifer, or of course, your ADS. I have no way to rapidly leave the area faster than any other class in the game.
Do you have any idea of just how ridiculously OP you are? The idea that you can leave an area of engagement until someone takes care of the threat is a luxury no infantry, and certainly no AV has.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3474
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Posted - 2014.09.22 19:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:They have no desire for balance at all. Soraya has even said any swarm should kill any ADS as much as an ADS can kill a swarmer. They're just closed-minded sore-losers that can't see the actual viability of the weapons they have.
How is an AV being able to kill an ADS, and an ADS being able to kill an AV not balance, Vulpes? You don't seem to know what the word "balance" means. This would be the definition of balance: "a condition in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions:"
But you're staunchly opposed to ADS and AV having equal abilities to kill each other.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3476
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Posted - 2014.09.22 19:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Thor, if the players won't play the role if it's balanced, is that an excuse to keep it overpowered? Where's my escape button? I want an escape button that makes my swarm suit able to completely avoid any threat to it whenever I choose.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3477
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Posted - 2014.09.22 19:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:Thor, if the players won't play the role if it's balanced, is that an excuse to keep it overpowered? Where's my escape button? I want an escape button that makes my swarm suit able to completely avoid any threat to it whenever I choose. If people don't use it then it's not balanced. I guess time will tell.
That doesn't make any sense. Balance is where a class is equally able to counter other classes. It has nothing to do with whether or not players are playing them. If vehicle users can't handle playing a game where they're balanced against other players, then they won't handle it, but it doesn't mean they should be able to roll over everyone else just so they're happy.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3481
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Posted - 2014.09.22 20:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:I think overuse is a good indication that something is OP and underuse is a good indication that something is UP.
If this wasn't the case then FOTM wouldn't be such a widely used and understood acronym.
It is a good indicator, but it is not definitive. For instance, Scrambler Rifles are not underpowered, but you don't see them as much because they take more skill to use. Buffing them would make them OP.
Derrith Erador wrote:Untrue, you can use kin cats to run away.
Kincats will not save me from an instakill shotgun. What instakills you?
Derrith Erador wrote:I've been called OP for quite a while, you just don't hear it. The idea that I have more movement than you is simply because I'm an aerial vehicle, I'm supposed to have more freedom of freedom of movement than you
I read this line as: I'm OP because I'm supposed to be OP.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3481
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Posted - 2014.09.22 20:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
CamClarke wrote:Soraya, what I think he's trying to get at is "if it's underpowered, nobody will use it". Same reason you don't see any sidearms being used besides SMGs, Nova Knives, and the odd MagSec. Same reason you don't see anyone using the Plasma Cannon or the Assault (Plasma) Rifle.
I guess we'll see if ADSs are going to be as underpowered as I'm expecting, and if they are, the role is going to go extinct.
I am not sure there is any tier of nerfs that could ever be done that would make an ADS anywhere near underpowered territory. The problem is the ADS players on this thread have an unrealistic and hilariously unhinged definition of balance in their heads, because they've never been anywhere near balanced play in the entire history of DUST.
I mean, this thread hasn't breached the other hilarity: That even if you can kill a dropship, they get to jump out and live because their dropship doesn't explode properly. And as Derrith has helpfully pointed out, the only way to lose an ADS, is to be an idiot with one.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3481
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Posted - 2014.09.22 20:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Soraya Xel wrote: For instance, Scrambler Rifles are not underpowered, but you don't see them as much because they take more skill to use. Buffing them would make them OP. There is nothing in this game that requires more skill to use than an ADS. It's not even close.
And as I pointed out, overbuffing the power of a class because it's hard to use still makes it OP. As was proved back when Scrambler Rifles were OP.
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:All I'm going to say is that Soraya sees AV vs V as Rock, Paper, Scissors.
I see it as chess.
You get bored with RPC after a few rounds, but Chess is timeless (if you're good at it).
In chess either side has an opportunity to win. Vulpes, you're arguing that in a one ADS vs one Swarm fight, the ADS should always survive. How is that like Chess?
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3483
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Posted - 2014.09.22 20:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
In fact, Vulpes, in chess, even the pawn can capture the queen. But again, ADS pilots are afraid of the idea that a swarm launcher user could kill an ADS.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3487
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Posted - 2014.09.22 20:20:00 -
[14] - Quote
CamClarke wrote:I'd be fine with being killable by one swarmer if I could ever see them.
I'd be nice if ADSes appeared on my minimap before they were ten meters away too. ;)
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Do you really think ADS is better than anything other thing in the game?
It really is.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3493
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Posted - 2014.09.22 20:42:00 -
[15] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:again, if it doesn't require teamwork to operate, why should it require teamwork to kill?
This should be like a Bible verse. People should memorize it, and recite it daily.
Tesfa Alem wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:That being said, there's also a benefit in ensuring newer pilots and more veteran pilots aren't 50% damage different. It's harder to balance for such a wide swing of capabilities. Namely that with such a wide variance of rate of fire, either the newbie will be useless or the veteran will be overpowered. With a smaller difference in the skill bonus, the entire class is easier to balance for. Nerfing the ships Pilots fly for the sake of Pilots? You're a lying piece of crap. Not in a trolly to much edge kind of way, but having the ******* to spew that bullshit....
The particular point, is even if they were to buff ADS RoF overall again later, the idea of the skill bonus being flatter is good for balancing in general. Very few skill bonuses are on the 10% per level scale, which is huge.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3494
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Posted - 2014.09.22 20:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
No need to charge for reimbursements, Derrith, when it's impossible for you to die. =)
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3495
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Posted - 2014.09.22 21:18:00 -
[17] - Quote
ACT1ON BASTARD wrote:Yeah but Rhadamanthus provides facts and evidence, Sorya you dont provide anything, why dont you ask new pilots how they feel about nerfing rof since youre speaking on behalf of them? A new pilot biggest worry isnt other dropships its av, im a 20 mil+ dropshipper, i know this sht like the back of my hands.You can ask me anything.
I am hesitant to talk too much about Judge's views versus mine, since he is not on right now to offer his own opinion, and I am a little afraid to misrepresent it. Judge likes numbers more than I do, he's better at them, but I feel the issue is conceptual, not numerical. Judge tends to speak, I think, from the perspective of an ADS pilot's ability to escape, whereas I speak from the perspective of an ADS pilot's ability to die. We don't agree conceptually, so we're rarely ever at the point where we're mincing numbers, IMHO. Also, while CCP bases a lot on internal statistics, those statistics are not public.
I wouldn't say I'm speaking on behalf of new pilots. I'm speaking on behalf of everyone who gets shot by indestructible ADSes. My comment about new pilots vs. veteran pilots was a more comprehensive design point. A smaller skill bonus makes the entire class easier to balance, whether buffing it or nerfing it. My comment had nothing to do with dropships fighting other dropships.
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:No need to charge for reimbursements, Derrith, when it's impossible for you to die. =) Whether you're trolling or just an idiot, that's not the way I expect my CPM to behave.
Please send instructions on how you expect your CPM to behave to [email protected]
Thank you. =)
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3495
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Posted - 2014.09.22 21:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
Derrith Erador wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:Not gonna lie dude, you need to take some Midol. I'll agree with that. But ADS was the one thing that kept me playing this game because I had so much fun doing it. I'm going to back away from this thread now, I've said my piece, I'm out.
Being OP is fun. For you. It isn't fun for everyone else.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3496
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Posted - 2014.09.22 21:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Not gonna lie dude, you need to take some Midol.
Thor Odinson42 wrote:I was talking to Soraya
I've been sick for about a week. Sometimes treating that includes painkillers. Mostly Acetaminophen, because it's in DayQuil. I took an Ibuprofen last week though at one point.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3496
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Posted - 2014.09.22 21:51:00 -
[20] - Quote
ACT1ON BASTARD wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:Not gonna lie dude, you need to take some Midol. Thor Odinson42 wrote:I was talking to Soraya I've been sick for about a week. Sometimes treating that includes painkillers. Mostly Acetaminophen, because it's in DayQuil. I took an Ibuprofen last week though at one point. High doses of vitamin c powder. Or just get orange juice w lots of pulp. Has to be pulp the other stuffs just sugar water. Or get some food grade h2o2 if you have the time, havent been sick for about 2 years now since taking both.
I've been taking both a multi-vitamin and vitamin C as well. I have those chewable vitamins because they were the same price as the pills, and I was like "heck, why not". I don't like orange juice with pulp in it, though they usually add vitamin C to the no pulp stuff, if I recall. Hydrogen peroxide isn't really intended for human consumption.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3496
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Posted - 2014.09.22 21:59:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:PLEASE remember that a dropship is an extra piece of equipment, a vehicle, that is brought into the match by a player. It cannot be equal in force to the other players who are only carrying what their dropsuits can hold.
The problem is, this statement doesn't negate for the notion that it allows that player to be way more powerful than they should be.
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:While flying around and escaping death, you are useless to your team.
I am also useless to my team while dead. The difference is, my death cost me money.
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:On a completely seperate note, I wouldn't have minded as much if the rate of fire skill for ADS was actually BUFFED and they removed the gun from the pilot seat. Get more gunner/pilot combos out in the sky.
Then it would not be an ADS, and every single ADS pilot in the game would quit.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3499
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Posted - 2014.09.22 22:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:Seriously, what is the problem with a RoF nerf? Aside from not firing as fast nothing about the ads changes. It is getting a price reduction and a small hp buff (not sure but i'll check) yet you all act like its getting nerfed into oblivion.
The other part of it is that swarms are being buffed so that they can sometimes maybe actually hit ADSes on occasion.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3508
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Posted - 2014.09.22 23:30:00 -
[23] - Quote
Benjamin Ciscko wrote:So do you not get on the high ground with swarms? Seems stupid not too as it brings you closer and range you say is a problem as well as making it next to impossible for infantry to kill you depending on where you are.
A lot of the time, the high ground is out of lock range of the ADS, since there is less and less good high ground that's reachable without a dropship of your own. Lock range on swarms is one of the things I wished CCP would've buffed.
Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:No need to charge for reimbursements, Derrith, when it's impossible for you to die. =) I hope that was humor. In PC, the place Derrith mostly flies, dropships do not last long without support. That's where your "Teamwork" comes in, Soraya.
Yes, that's why there was a smiley attached. Some people didn't notice. My posting style bounces from practical advice and solid discussion to trolling. Try to keep up, Darth. ;)
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3551
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Posted - 2014.09.23 21:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:You need to clarify this for me, I don't understand it.
Literally that no amount of money you bring on the field should make you just naturally superior to all other players the way many vehicles currently do.
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:You're implying dying in a dropship doesn't cost money.. I die in every dropship I fly (it crushes me mid air whenever I try to get out) and I lose 2 dropships per match on average. I've been trying to do this for 6 months. Everyone is useless dead, a dropship is useless even when it's ALIVE but denied access to the match. It also cannot hack objectives even if an area is clear for a moment.
It's common to blow a few million ISK worth of swarm suits just to fail to kill a dropship in pubs.
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:What makes an assault dropship is the rate of fire, it doesn't matter if it's from the gunner or the pilot. If the pilot has no gun, the gunner will get the rate of fire bonus and it's still an assault dropship. More DPS then a regular dropship and less seats to carry infantry.
Similar to solo tankers, ADS pilots playstyle is that of both moving and firing at once. This is a somewhat OP role design (I complain about this a lot), but I'm just saying, ask Derrith how he'd respond if CCP took his gun away instead.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3556
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Posted - 2014.09.23 23:02:00 -
[25] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:
Similar to solo tankers, ADS pilots playstyle is that of both moving and firing at once. This is a somewhat OP role design (I complain about this a lot), but I'm just saying, ask Derrith how he'd respond if CCP took his gun away instead.
This is where I disagree with you. Motion is life and firing on the move is the gold standard of vehicular weapon systems even in modern times. Movement = Life. Standing still = Death. Vehicles should fire on the move.
They should. Because they should have someone doing the moving and someone doing the firing. Solo vehicles of any sort should die horribly, IMHO. Which is why a single player shouldn't be able to do both at once.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3562
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Posted - 2014.09.24 01:52:00 -
[26] - Quote
Agent Monroe wrote:Calm down everyone, CCP is just trying to make us dislike the game more over time to make it easier when they finally pull the plug.
Except most players in the game will be thrilled and enjoy the game even more.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3582
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Posted - 2014.09.24 04:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
Juno Tristan wrote:Soraya, I'm curious to know what you think is the point of having vehicles in the game?
Vehicles, in my opinion, should be a force multiplier of coordinated behavior. Whether that's infantry supporting the vehicle (protecting it from AV, for instance) or a team-based vehicle which is effective only with multiple participants aboard.
I don't think vehicles should ever allow a single player to outright be superior to infantry. I believe a solo driver in a tank should be borderline useless. But a team of three coordinated people operating a tank should be an unstoppable death machine.
Vehicles should enable and encourage team play, not be an excuse to avoid it.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3586
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Posted - 2014.09.24 06:37:00 -
[28] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:To that end, doesn't skill stacking fall in line with that principle?
Heh. Kinda. o_O
Juno Tristan wrote:Then how about we add some actual bonuses for having multiple people in vehicles because currently 3 people in a tank is little more than a points pinata
I'm thinking add each passenger's shields and armour rep rate to the vehicle
Particularly, my perfect view of HAVs would be the driver getting the small forward turret (which has a limited firing arc, it would be easy to flank a tank with only a driver), have the second seat be the main turret, and the third seat control the top small turret with better visibility as well as the logistics modules. A single person could use any of the features of the tanks by switching seats (like with a LAV now), but at the obvious limitation of not being able to do all at once.
Then, a tank isn't able to efficiently work with it's defenses, like shield and armor reppers, while also doing damage, and also moving. That would severely hamper it's survivability and capability when only a single person was using it. In that case, one could justify buffing HAVs pretty decently, since they wouldn't be that powerful with only a single seat in use.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3588
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Posted - 2014.09.24 13:56:00 -
[29] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:You just advocated CCP killing EVE. One person, one vehicle. The whole point is they're culling some capsule tech for vehicles.
Different games need to work differently. And capsule tech makes like no sense in this context.
CommanderBolt wrote:[Proto stompers]
How is that any different?
Breakin Stuff wrote:Protostompers can be smeared solo with militia weapons.
Breakin nailed it there.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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