DUST Search - Sticky:Hotfix Delta

Kallas Hallytyr wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

What makes you state that this is done on a whim, I have done my best to explain in detail and facts why we believe these changes are necessary?

I said that because it came essentially out of the blue after a throwaway comment in one thread.

CCP Rattati wrote:

Now it's, "it shouldn't be 3%, it should be 5% or even 7%". That 7% proposal never came from the pilots during the multiple Delta threads and discussions. Pretty sure, if the Delta proposal had been 5%, the ADS community would say it should be 7% or 9%. We were waiting for counter proposals and they never came, and I understand why, but that's siege mentality, that we as a community could do without.

Simply, the ADS community as a whole, refused completely to take part in the feedback discussions. No give and take.

Right...

Yes it's now, " it shouldn't be that enormous of a drop" because it is out of blue. Most of your changes have been reasonable and part of that is because they're relatively restrained - cutting the bonus by 70% is pretty extreme. What other changes made that jump?

Now, to the point: a ROF reduction is a big drop in DPS. What is the purpose of the ADS? Is it a transport? Is it a gunship? Is it a mash-up? What role is it to perform, especially if it is to keep the ROF bonus but in a largely gimped form - ground attack? Well, the ROF was part and parcel of being an effective slayer. Transport? Well, isn't that the whole point of the Grimsnes/Myron?

Now, people primarily have an issue with the Python, right, because it murders infantry very effectively? Well, what about the Incubus? It's primary role was being a vehicle hunter, using the small railgun (because the small blaster has generally been terrible, and even buffed is difficult to use vs infantry on the Incubus) but with both the ADS and the small rail ROF nerfs, the Incubus is barely more effective after 2+ million SP than the unskilled baseline.

Charlie Particle Cannon DPS
Standard/Max Skills
Base damage: 434.2/477.62
Base DPS: 868.4/1432.86
Shield DPS: 668.668/1103.3022 (77% efficacy)
Armour DPS: 590.512/974.3448 (68% efficacy)

Charlie numbers are too disparate, fine, and with the fix to profile, that's good.

Delta Particle Cannon DPS
Standard ROF 92; Incubus 5 ROF 105.8
Standard/Max Skills
Base DPS: 665.773333/842.203267
Shield DPS: 599.156/747.98294 (90% efficacy)
Armour DPS: 721.350666/926.423594 (110% efficacy)

Standard:
Base: 868.4 drops to 665.8; 21.5% reduction in DPS
Shield: 668.7 drops to 599.1; 10.3% reduction in DPS
Armour: 590.5 increases to 721.3; 22.1% increase in DPS

Incubus
Base: 1432.9 drops to 842.2; 41.2% reduction in DPS
Shield: 1103.3 drops to 748; 22.2% reduction in DPS
Armour: 974.3 drops to 926.4; 4.9% reduction in DPS.

I hope that that is intelligible. The point is that the Incubus needs the ROF to be a dangerous threat to vehicles. At 842.2 DPS with max skills the Incubus is only slightly more of a threat to a vehicle than a LAV mounted small railgun. Thing is, the Incubus with small rail is viable because it can hunt otherwise very tough vehicles and keep them in check; a blaster Incubus is nonexistent pre-Delta, hopefully it will actually be useful in Delta, but then that's also leaning towards what people dislike about the Python.

CCP Rattati wrote:

I would much rather want veteran players come forward and admit that some things need balancing, and that they try to influence the smartest and best ways to do so instead of defending the status quo, tooth and nail.

Someone said, let's see how Delta goes, we will look at the numbers, you collect your feedback and let us know, a single ROF change can be done during any TQ downtime, any workday.

No offence, but you've essentially just been labeling any pilot feedback as reactionary and wanting to protect the status quo. What can we say except, "No please, I don't want to survive a single MLT Swarm Missile! Please make it so fitting an afterburner costs so much I cannot fit turrets!"? What feedback you've received is that pilots are worried that you'll be making them impotent in their chosen profession; AV is powerful already and mobility is the primary defence of an ADS and Delta is introducing a threefold ADS/AV alteration - this is worrisome because nobody wants to have their favourite thing mad useless and we've already had one period of insignificance (1.6 and the 400m Swarms)

So really, it is reactionary, because we are not nearly as tough as made out to be. That MinScout who you can never get a bead on and keeps coming back to knife you? Yeah, he spent ages honing his skills getting permascanned and now has a balanced arena in which to hunt. That ADS pilot who constantly gets a kill or two while screaming across at top speed? Honed their skills when just showing your face would have had three people in the redline lock-on and launch volleys that would knock you below half HP.

Yes, let's see what happens in Delta, but really can you stop demonizing ADS pilots?

getting more proficiency in the shotgun so I can kill every single f*ck I see using swarmlauncher


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 35 post(s)
poison Diego Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 431	Posted - 2014.09.23 15:50:00 - [1] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Where was discussion on such a huge Nerf to ADS ROF? The decision was mine and mine alone, a 50% increase in DPS is unprecedented progression of damage in the game, and makes it impossible to balance. I decided to rip the band aid off and we don't need a full named hotfix to inject one or two remedies afterwards. And just to iterate, based on all data and experience, the ADS is far too powerful. It is a huge force multiplier and it does everything well, it transports infantry and uplinks. decimates infantry and vehicles, intercepts RDV vehicle delivery, avoids swarms with ease. The only counter is a mass team shift to AV, and forges, and by then the rest of the ADS team has gone full anti-infantry. Even if you, by some off chance, take it down, the pilot ejects, runs behind a hill and calls in another one. I see that the discussion has swayed from, "it's not OP", to "we all knew and admitted it was OP but this is too much". We will monitor the situation, and if ADS performance stats plummet below an acceptable threshold, our response will be immediate, not based on a hotfix schedule. For now, let's see what happens. Don't forget that Turret damage profiles have also changed in Delta. Where can I see those damage profile changes? I want my ADS SP back so I can get more proficiency in the shotgunn to kill every single f*ck I see using swarmlauncher
poison Diego Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 431	Posted - 2014.09.23 16:14:00 - [2] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: What makes you state that this is done on a whim, I have done my best to explain in detail and facts why we believe these changes are necessary? I said that because it came essentially out of the blue after a throwaway comment in one thread. CCP Rattati wrote: Now it's, "it shouldn't be 3%, it should be 5% or even 7%". That 7% proposal never came from the pilots during the multiple Delta threads and discussions. Pretty sure, if the Delta proposal had been 5%, the ADS community would say it should be 7% or 9%. We were waiting for counter proposals and they never came, and I understand why, but that's siege mentality, that we as a community could do without. Simply, the ADS community as a whole, refused completely to take part in the feedback discussions. No give and take. Right... Yes it's now, " it shouldn't be that enormous of a drop" because it is out of blue. Most of your changes have been reasonable and part of that is because they're relatively restrained - cutting the bonus by 70% is pretty extreme. What other changes made that jump? Now, to the point: a ROF reduction is a big drop in DPS. What is the purpose of the ADS? Is it a transport? Is it a gunship? Is it a mash-up? What role is it to perform, especially if it is to keep the ROF bonus but in a largely gimped form - ground attack? Well, the ROF was part and parcel of being an effective slayer. Transport? Well, isn't that the whole point of the Grimsnes/Myron? Now, people primarily have an issue with the Python, right, because it murders infantry very effectively? Well, what about the Incubus? It's primary role was being a vehicle hunter, using the small railgun (because the small blaster has generally been terrible, and even buffed is difficult to use vs infantry on the Incubus) but with both the ADS and the small rail ROF nerfs, the Incubus is barely more effective after 2+ million SP than the unskilled baseline. Charlie Particle Cannon DPS Standard/Max Skills Base damage: 434.2/477.62 Base DPS: 868.4/1432.86 Shield DPS: 668.668/1103.3022 (77% efficacy) Armour DPS: 590.512/974.3448 (68% efficacy) Charlie numbers are too disparate, fine, and with the fix to profile, that's good. Delta Particle Cannon DPS Standard ROF 92; Incubus 5 ROF 105.8 Standard/Max Skills Base DPS: 665.773333/842.203267 Shield DPS: 599.156/747.98294 (90% efficacy) Armour DPS: 721.350666/926.423594 (110% efficacy) Standard: Base: 868.4 drops to 665.8; 21.5% reduction in DPS Shield: 668.7 drops to 599.1; 10.3% reduction in DPS Armour: 590.5 increases to 721.3; 22.1% increase in DPS Incubus Base: 1432.9 drops to 842.2; 41.2% reduction in DPS Shield: 1103.3 drops to 748; 22.2% reduction in DPS Armour: 974.3 drops to 926.4; 4.9% reduction in DPS. I hope that that is intelligible. The point is that the Incubus needs the ROF to be a dangerous threat to vehicles. At 842.2 DPS with max skills the Incubus is only slightly more of a threat to a vehicle than a LAV mounted small railgun. Thing is, the Incubus with small rail is viable because it can hunt otherwise very tough vehicles and keep them in check; a blaster Incubus is nonexistent pre-Delta, hopefully it will actually be useful in Delta, but then that's also leaning towards what people dislike about the Python. CCP Rattati wrote: I would much rather want veteran players come forward and admit that some things need balancing, and that they try to influence the smartest and best ways to do so instead of defending the status quo, tooth and nail. Someone said, let's see how Delta goes, we will look at the numbers, you collect your feedback and let us know, a single ROF change can be done during any TQ downtime, any workday. No offence, but you've essentially just been labeling any pilot feedback as reactionary and wanting to protect the status quo. What can we say except, "No please, I don't want to survive a single MLT Swarm Missile! Please make it so fitting an afterburner costs so much I cannot fit turrets!"? What feedback you've received is that pilots are worried that you'll be making them impotent in their chosen profession; AV is powerful already and mobility is the primary defence of an ADS and Delta is introducing a threefold ADS/AV alteration - this is worrisome because nobody wants to have their favourite thing mad useless and we've already had one period of insignificance (1.6 and the 400m Swarms) So really, it is reactionary, because we are not nearly as tough as made out to be. That MinScout who you can never get a bead on and keeps coming back to knife you? Yeah, he spent ages honing his skills getting permascanned and now has a balanced arena in which to hunt. That ADS pilot who constantly gets a kill or two while screaming across at top speed? Honed their skills when just showing your face would have had three people in the redline lock-on and launch volleys that would knock you below half HP. Yes, let's see what happens in Delta, but really can you stop demonizing ADS pilots? Yep absolutely agreed, nobody says he wants his favourite role nerfed. This kind of explains, so this was a punishment? Does this mean you might be reducing the DPS of the CR, RR and SCR by 70% in the near future? Because its OP and the users dont want to admit it and you are going to punish them for it? Rattati, it is like we have done something to you. Most of the time you answer a proposal from an ADS pilot it is with hostility. You paint us all as major assholes and and talk to us accordingly This nerf is to much, to paralyzing thats my response. Since it seams like this is actually going to happen my proposal would be 5% per lvl then.... I give up R.I.P ADS getting more proficiency in the shotgun so I can kill every single f*ck I see using swarmlauncher