DUST Search - Scouts need another weakness besides HP.

Bradric Banewolf wrote:

You guys make the "scout aren't OP" argument seem fine on the forums. Someone reading this would think they could kill a proto scout with a basic suit, no? Then you get in-game and realize just utterly ridiculous it is to watch scouts get hit head on with hmg's in range and survive?! Most of you spend more time attacking others post than you do proving scouts aren't OP?!

They aren't saying scouts are OP like the burst HMG?! Now that's a whole new tier of BS! They are saying scouts shouldn't be able to stack armor without loosing speed, dodge not one but multiple players round while taking out others head on, and beat every other fit in regen regardless to what mods you wear?! If they have all these new abilities why did they ever need the cloak? It's like pooring salt on a wound?! They saw me coming a mile away, can rep faster, strafe like crazy, and put out massive dmg so why does he need to be invisible again? Take the cloak, and we'll be closer to balance as the scouts have everything else at their disposal. Now before you bring your bash post stick tell me why they absolutely need the cloak?


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One Eyed King Land of the BIind 3865	Posted - 2014.09.07 20:40:00 - [1] - Quote Kin Cat wrote: And I'm not talking about racial weaknesses here. Every dropsuit has a racial strength and weakness, not just Scouts. Scouts are weak to Alpha damage Suits with higher HP In some cases other scouts And that's about it. Scouts can strafe or retreat/recover more effectively from any of what I'm about to mention below. Mediums are weak to Alpha damage Sustained fire, especially the slow ones EWAR Being outnumbered Being outranged Cloaks Logis are weak to everything Heavies are weak to Sustained fire EWAR Being outranged Cloaks Faster suits Suits with better regen Other heavies If I missed something please tell me Scouts are also weak to sustained fire. Heck, most scouts don't have the HP to be dead before the fire can go on long enough to be called sustained... Not to mention, you don't even NEED Alpha damage to kill a scout. I get killed by std SRs for Pete's sake. STANDARD!!! Scouts die to being outnumbered A LOT. Also very convenient for you to leave that off your list. In fact, that is the best way to get them, because then it is more obvious. You can't kill someone after being cloaked or from a hiding spot in the middle of a bunch of reds without being killed immediately after a kill, sometimes before. Being outranged is also something that kills scouts. Don't think so? Just use a CR when you see a shotgun scout, and back up while they are outside 10 m and see who dies first. They are also using a CR you say? Well unless you are also using a scout suit, you should have more HP. So the only reason someone would lose at range is if you are using a CQC weapon like an HMG or a shotgun, which is working as intended. By reading your list, you seam to be a heavy, and merely trying to make your suit seem weak. I am honestly quite tired of your lack of reason and completely biased nonsense. Please stop wasting everyone's time until you are ready to have reasoned discussions and not simply present biased ideas masquerading as something legitimate. You can always tell a Millford Minja
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 3872	Posted - 2014.09.07 21:40:00 - [2] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Don't worry a mlt shotgun can kill my proto assault 1-2 shots.. MLT Yeah. I dislike those things too. I remember seeing Rattati making a statement about how lower tier SGs are a little too good compared to a Proto, so you might see some changes across the tiers. That significant of alpha shouldn't come cheaply or with low skill. You can always tell a Millford Minja
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 3874	Posted - 2014.09.07 22:01:00 - [3] - Quote Death Shadow117 wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: Don't worry a mlt shotgun can kill my proto assault 1-2 shots.. MLT Yeah. I dislike those things too. I remember seeing Rattati making a statement about how lower tier SGs are a little too good compared to a Proto, so you might see some changes across the tiers. That significant of alpha shouldn't come cheaply or with low skill. yeah i dont understand why mlt shotguns are so powerful. SRs are SUPPOSED to be Alpha damage weapons, but have you ever seen a standard SRs stats? They are laughable. You can always tell a Millford Minja
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 3874	Posted - 2014.09.07 22:02:00 - [4] - Quote Kin Cat wrote: Death Shadow117 wrote: i have yet to see you explain your reasoning. scouts have the best speed and recovery. which gives them the advantage against sustained fire and being outnumbered. did you notice i did not put being outnumbered on heavies either? that's because they excel at crowd control. Recovery doesn't means squat when your HP is so low that you are killed before you can even find cover, much less recover from the damage. You can always tell a Millford Minja
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 3878	Posted - 2014.09.07 22:22:00 - [5] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Don't be like this guy. Dammit Maken!! What did you make me watch? Ugh. I feel like linking to a King Thunderbolt thread should be Dust's version of a Rick Roll... gustavo acosta wrote: Elaina Everdark wrote: Kin Cat wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Recovery doesn't means squat when your HP is so low that you are killed before you can even find cover, much less recover from the damage. hence why i put alpha damage as a weakness let us not forget that scouts had as much HP as assaults before they were buffed and that HP stacking is still prevalent on scouts. for example now that caldari has no precision bonus but still has innate range and dampening, he can stack shield modules on his high slots. honestly people i am not the one complaining here. you are. i am just making logical points and you have yet to refute them. try not letting your emotions get in the way of reasoning It doesn't have to be alpha damage though, any kind of damage will kill most, if not all scouts. The issue is if I have a cal scout with (insert proto rifle here) I can stack extenders get my shields down to half, cloak up, hide for less than 5 seconds, come back and kill everything/ anything I want... But you would have to sacrifice precision to do so, and are very vulnerable to fluxes. Not to mention, to be truly hidden, you would have to sacrifice tank to dampen, otherwise you are just a cloaked scout with a red chevron over your head, or showing up on medium and heavy frame tacnet because of passive scans. It is working as intended and not a real issue. You can always tell a Millford Minja
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 3881	Posted - 2014.09.07 22:41:00 - [6] - Quote Kin Cat wrote: One Eyed King wrote: SRs are SUPPOSED to be Alpha damage weapons, but have you ever seen a standard SRs stats? They are laughable. You are wrong. A standard sniper rifle does 209 damage. Against an armor based suit, combined with a headshot, you could easily one-shot even a proto gallente scout. Advanced only does 219 and proto kaalakiota 229. So the difference between that and a standard is negligible. At 209, you can only take out Minjas without HP mods on a body shot. Maybe if they are standing still you can get the OHK, but you shouldn't have to require a headshot for something that is supposed to be an Alpha damage weapon to kill the weakest suits in the game. Comparatively, you would have to use up to 5 shots on a decked out Assault if not more. From a SR. The only SR that could truly be said to have Alpha damage is the Thales. You can always tell a Millford Minja
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 3883	Posted - 2014.09.07 23:07:00 - [7] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: Cal scouts have the same passive dampening skills as a gal scout, and all they need to do is fit a cloak and maybe a dampener to hide from mediums/ heavies. The issue with scouts having such high regeneration rate is that it makes it much easier to run as assaults. It distorts the role of the suit, i.e. "Why should I run a Caldari assault with shield re-chargers when my scout can get the same amount of regen without sacrificing tank?" Scouts shouldn't have enough HP to facilitate a such high regeneration rates. I'm fine if scouts want to tank their suits, however I do not like the fact that it allows scouts to work as well as assaults. If either a shield recharge nerf was put into place, or a scout efficiency to E-war modules so you HAVE to fit E-war modules to get the benefit rather than being passively able to see/(not be seen by) other suits. I agree that scouts shouldn't assault better than an assault. And while I have my Caldari skilled up to 4, I only used it a handful of times since I got it, and never since Charlie. Nor do I tank, so or use an assault suit, so I can't really compare it as directly as I would like to say that a Cal scout is a better assault than others. What I will say is that it is accepted by many players, if not a majority, that shield tanking is far inferior to armor tanking at this point in time. I will also say this is the first, at least the first I can remember, of anyone complaining that Cal scout regen is a significant issue, so I will pay more attention to it. Lastly, I have heard Rattati discuss changing EWAR bonuses such that you would need to equip the mods to get the bonus instead of having any passive bonus from having skills in EWAR. I think this would be a more concise fix to many scout issues, whether it be shield or armor tanking. What I don't see is an across-the-board, all-powerful suit that the OP is trying to make scouts out to be. I would rather have real discussions about valid concerns like you raised than childish crying because a heavy is getting killed by a scout. You can always tell a Millford Minja
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 3889	Posted - 2014.09.07 23:31:00 - [8] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: One Eyed King wrote: What I will say is that it is accepted by many players, if not a majority, that shield tanking is far inferior to armor tanking at this point in time. I will also say this is the first, at least the first I can remember, of anyone complaining that Cal scout regen is a significant issue, so I will pay more attention to it. I made a thread about it in features and discussions before charlie I think. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=166555 it was mostly brushed off however. One Eyed King wrote: Lastly, I have heard Rattati discuss changing EWAR bonuses such that you would need to equip the mods to get the bonus instead of having any passive bonus from having skills in EWAR. I think this would be a more concise fix to many scout issues, whether it be shield or armor tanking. ^But this would probably be the best solution... It was probably brushed off at the time because the precision + range + shared scanning was such a huge issue with the Caldari that any shield tanking would have been looked at as an improvment. After looking at the Delta topic, it looks like the bonus shift to modules will probably not take place til Echo or later, unless they add to Delta before discussion is done. You can always tell a Millford Minja
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 3899	Posted - 2014.09.08 01:16:00 - [9] - Quote Death Shadow117 wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Death Shadow117 wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: Don't worry a mlt shotgun can kill my proto assault 1-2 shots.. MLT Yeah. I dislike those things too. I remember seeing Rattati making a statement about how lower tier SGs are a little too good compared to a Proto, so you might see some changes across the tiers. That significant of alpha shouldn't come cheaply or with low skill. yeah i dont understand why mlt shotguns are so powerful. SRs are SUPPOSED to be Alpha damage weapons, but have you ever seen a standard SRs stats? They are laughable. sniper rifles? i said shotguns and mlt ones not standard sniper rifles. I may have grabbed the wrong reply I wanted to quote. I honestly don't know what happened there. You can always tell a Millford Minja
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 3904	Posted - 2014.09.08 02:22:00 - [10] - Quote Bradric Banewolf wrote: You guys make the "scout aren't OP" argument seem fine on the forums. Someone reading this would think they could kill a proto scout with a basic suit, no? Then you get in-game and realize just utterly ridiculous it is to watch scouts get hit head on with hmg's in range and survive?! Most of you spend more time attacking others post than you do proving scouts aren't OP?! They aren't saying scouts are OP like the burst HMG?! Now that's a whole new tier of BS! They are saying scouts shouldn't be able to stack armor without loosing speed, dodge not one but multiple players round while taking out others head on, and beat every other fit in regen regardless to what mods you wear?! If they have all these new abilities why did they ever need the cloak? It's like pooring salt on a wound?! They saw me coming a mile away, can rep faster, strafe like crazy, and put out massive dmg so why does he need to be invisible again? Take the cloak, and we'll be closer to balance as the scouts have everything else at their disposal. Now before you bring your bash post stick tell me why they absolutely need the cloak? A) I do get killed by basic suits quite frequently. It is a hazard when you run 300 ish HP. B) Show me this video of a scout magically dodging HMGs in range. I would love to see it. Even old school heavies who run them often say they have no problems with killing scouts in their HMG, so why should you be the only one to have these issues if this is an at-large problem? C) Scouts DO lose speed by wearing armor plating, just like everyone else. They may supplement that with a Kin Cat, but then they are going to have reduced fitting capacity and won't be able to dampen. Thus leaving them susceptible to any squads that have even a single scout with any sort of precision. D) Scouts need cloaks because they are squishy. More so now than at any time since 1.8, when the tanked scout really became a problem. Assaults can now tank, and regen, much better than scouts can, plus they have more flexibility in terms of slots for fitting armor, damage mods, speed, and other things. Prior to cloaks, all any merc had to do was spot a scout out of the corner of their eye on those massively open battlefields as they try to bypass the action to hack CRUs, objectives, and plant uplinks to give their teams a chance, only to have that same red kill them in a single burst of an AR, CR, or RR. Now that cloaks are available, it is much easier to traverse the battlefield and not get killed by people who randomly see you because there is not enough cover to ever go from pt A to pt B covertly without cloak. Scout suits are not perfect, but cloaks are far from the "I win" button you pretend them to be. Your assessment of the problem is obtuse and as a result your solutions are heavy handed and will in no way move the game forward toward a more balanced playing field. You can always tell a Millford Minja

One Eyed King Land of the BIind 3908	Posted - 2014.09.08 02:29:00 - [11] - Quote Kin Cat wrote: yeah the scout QQ in this thread is ******* ridiculous. scouts are the most OP thing in this game right now. i should know i just got stomped in PC by like a full team of scouts. Right, its the scouts QQing... You can always tell a Millford Minja