DUST Search - Rattati / CPM: Remove the Wallhacks

ratamaq doc wrote:

Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote:

What drawbacks do passive scans have

Passive scans can not penetrate ground level of map.
So if you are on flat ground with one hill, away from any outpost structures, and there is Militia Heavy behind that hill, and you can not see his shape on your screen, you can not see his signature ether even if he is 5 meters from you.
Passive scanner mechanic is construct in way that allows you to detect enemy signatures behind solid walls, buildings, and plenty of materials that should interact and disrupt your 'sound detector', as you already know. If you only have range and precision to detect it, you will detect it with one exception - ground level of map - if target is behind it you will not detect his signature no matter how many modules you use or skills you have, ground level is not penetrable 'wall'.

Both of the following images are from this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqiWBB6gWXw&list=UUBw0rF1WiMtNMkfRZhXxGzw

Passive scanning seeing through terrain.

http://imgur.com/5TWomim

Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote:

Are you serious? That's my entire point!

It is RADAR of your DROPSUIT so it should work in 3D, it is not RADAR of spaceship that see battleground in 2D.

because I have a 360 degree aura

BS, you have 60 degree scanning range on your Dropsuit, you see redberry on your 'back' because squad-mates see them in they 60 degree angle and squad scans are shared. Stop spreading BS, you knowledge about how passive scan works is basic.

Active Scanner should still provide exact positions

It takes 3kk less SP to skill it on lvl5, so no.. you are wrong, again.

Passive scanning showing marks more than 60-¦ out of my FOV.

http://imgur.com/YHE3cku

I was not in a squad, (notice the my dot is blue), so I was only getting intel from my passives.

Maybe you are visiting us from 2012? Hey! welcome to 2014. Scanning hasn't worked the way you are describing since uprising 1.4. Do us a favor go back and tell the 2013 Devs that the vehicle changes in 1.7 are moronic, and to make sure they get that decimal right on the militia booster!


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Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2397	Posted - 2014.09.05 18:36:00 - [1] - Quote I posted this in Feedback but it seems like more people pay attention to GD. I won't go into a long tirade as to why red dots appearing through walls is a stupid idea. It should speak for itself. The simple fact of knowing someone's position through a wall gives such a massive advantage that in almost any other FPS game it would be considered a wallhack and thus a banable offense. I play Scout (since 1.8 of course) and have been making use of this nonsense since before Active Scans were nerfed, and the simple fact is it's unfair. It's unfair that I can be ready to unload my clip in someone's face the milisecond they turn the corner while they have absolutely no idea I'm there because I'm a damped scout. EWar is a good premise with really shoddy execution. I can understand CCP wants Scouts to be "intel providers" or whatever, but what they've done has inadvertently pushed all slayers like myself towards Scouts because it's become a game of wallhack or be wallhacked. My suggestion may not be easy to execute because it's probably not just changing some variable, but I really think we need to get rid of red dots appearing through walls via passive scans. Red dots should appear after you've "spotted" someone a la targeted them with your weapon and should remain visible for a few seconds thereafter, but the simple "wallhack radius of death" shouldn't exist in any FPS game. The red dots should appear only on your radar such that you can look at it occasionally, see some red dots in your radius and be advised "Ok, I know there's enemies around me but I don't know if they're above me, below me, around the corner, etc". With how it works now, I see a red dot through the wall and if he doesn't know I'm there it's 99% likely I'll kill him before he can even respond. It's silly to have a constant free flow of information regarding enemy positions with absolutely no drawback. Get rid of the wallhacks. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2399	Posted - 2014.09.05 18:41:00 - [2] - Quote Soulja Ghostface wrote: Go play call of duty. I'm fine, thank you. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2399	Posted - 2014.09.05 18:53:00 - [3] - Quote http://www.twitch.tv/funkmasterwhale/c/4225854 Skip to about 9 minutes and watch how OP EWar is. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2419	Posted - 2014.09.06 06:41:00 - [4] - Quote HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: I see a lot of big corps in here... I also see you run scouts in squads with heavy/assault/commando backup in pubs, Factional and especially in PC ( it's necessary? ). A lot of hate from people that I've seen use ( and admit using ) TAR, scanerina, gal cloak shotgun, condemning what they have done. Now your complaining about something you nullify with shared squad vision while you q-sync and pub stomp. ( daily I see your corps doin it ). You all have years of sp above newbs but still q-sync in pubs and use all the stuff you complain about so in the meantime I'll go watch some black guys call each other *****... It makes more sense. ( btw no racism intended just a metaphor ) That's a very shallow interpretation of what's going on here. You seem to have this preconception that just because we've been around longer that we want to do everything in our power to sabotage the playerbase. You completely misconstrue the point here. OF COURSE we would use these things. How else do you compete with other players who abuse broken mechanics? Is there some sort of moral code we have to abide where we all agree not to use them? The fact that so many top tier players use these things is because they're clearly broken, and in such a scenario the only way to stay competitive is to fight fire with fire. Every single broken FotM piece of crap has been called out by vet players because it ruins gameplay when a certain mechanic becomes so saturated that you have to resort to a "if you can't beat em, join em" mentality. I'm talking about Duvolle TAC, Cal Logi, Fused Locus Grenades, Flaylocks, Mass Drivers, Active Scanners, Forge Guns, Tanks, Cloaks, Scouts, Rail + Combat Rifles, and I'm sure a few others. All of these have at some point been OP and called out by players like us who abused the hell out of them to make it apparent just how stupid they were. For example, my Forge thread from forever ago where I demonstrated me going 60-0 two games in a row with an Assault Forge Gun by just sitting on top of a tower and blapping people. I asked them to nerf the splash on it because of how easy it was to two-shot people with just splash damage. It ended up being like 15+ pages and was subsequently nerfed in the next patch. A lot of players were saying I was an extreme case and that I cheated or abused the weapon and that it shouldn't be nerfed and blah blah, but there were plenty others like me who were abusing the exact same thing but just not wanting to be open about it. Point is you gotta show the ridiculousness of certain mechanics if you want them to get fixed. It makes everyone better players and for a better game by not having very apparent crutches readily available in the game. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2422	Posted - 2014.09.06 07:14:00 - [5] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: The problem is the pass/fail nature of passive scans. Either they always see you, or they never do. There's no dynamic, and it makes balance near impossible. If we ever get a client side update, I'd advise a revamp of the system into something dynamic, like people becoming harder to detect the farther away they are. This issue was much more engaging however pre 1.8 where I could decide with my logi or assault suit whether to damp enough to neutralize all but the 5 second active scanner...and completely nullify all passive scans with 3 damps. The monopoly on the wallhack by scouts is a large part of the imbalance. It was engaging for the 1% of players who knew about it and actively sought to counter it. For everyone else it was like ratamaq said, "YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED" burned into your screen. Ambush was literally blob warfare back then... Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2422	Posted - 2014.09.06 07:31:00 - [6] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: This involves a larger issue that I think should be obvious but somehow a lot of eve players have disagreed with me... It comes down to how esoteric dust can be...instead of simplifying it so you can see exactly what your profile and precision would be in the game as you make your fitting...which is what a soccer dad wants to ***** do when he's logging on for 30 min on a weekend...instead you need *** player made google docs of dampening or trial and error...I wish CCP just released their own doc detailing e-war each time they changed it showing on each suit what it would look like...and double check the math is all correct and nothing is acting irregularly. A console FPS need to be accessible. I get eve was built with these nerds hunched over their spreadsheets and I get that and respect it. But a console FPS gamer doesn't want to spend his time having to leave the game to do this . Why do I want to go research the stacking penalties of modules and when all I want to do if log in for 45 min and play a few ambush matches? It's the hardcore that will sit around and exhibit the patience to trololol and figure out what's effective..and the 5% or w/e will find the most broken thing (currently ADS/shotgun scouts/and burst heavies for anyone wondering) and then ** on people all day enjoying the carnage. Hey man... Some of those nerds hunched over their spreadsheets are also trying to help Mr. Soccer Dad enjoy the game too. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2422	Posted - 2014.09.06 07:40:00 - [7] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: How is it different than sneaking up on ppl's backs while cloaked as a scout? Does this not position you to unload a clip into an unsuspecting opponent even more than seeing them approach around a wall? Also - everyone knows not to turn corners by themselves unless at their own risk. I don't see a problem with seeing through a wall - really does not much alter mechanics of a game where players can be cloaked. It really does because it makes the role of slayer Scouts way too easy, which is why there's so many of them now. By not having red dots appear through walls Scouts would have to rely on their radar combined with actually having to search for an enemy. You wouldn't instantly know where someone is only that there's definitely someone in your vicinity. It would actually make Scouts have to focus on looking at the game instead of playing whack-a-mole with the red dots that pop up on their screen. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2435	Posted - 2014.09.06 18:18:00 - [8] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: Ah, yeah I see - I would have no problem with this at all - makes good sense. I did not realize even that this was the core of the discussion. Makes sense to me - not a bad idea at all. I probably could clarify better but yes, this is the intent. As a Scout, I still end up looking at my radar about every 3 or 4 seconds to check my surroundings, but this practice is null in most cases because the red dots are already visible all around me on the screen. The radar is an important tool that Scouts should have to rely more on for survival. It's too easy to go Slayer Scout with the current implementation because seeing red dots through walls is just too damn good. I'd just like to note that I make use of DUST wallhacks all the time and it's partly the reason I can get 30+ killstreaks without dying. Many others with similar skill levels do the same, and I'm fairly positive the ones who are adamantly against removing red dots through walls probably abuse it just as much and simply don't want to see their favorite crutch gone. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2435	Posted - 2014.09.06 18:27:00 - [9] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Ok, perhaps maybe I can agree with this. Allow the scouts to see redberries through the walls but limit the information to the minimap and not the field of vision. PS: I run primarily Minmatar scout so I don't take advantage of the EWAR because it has none. Wait wait wait... did you just say EWAR has no advantage? Being constantly fed enemy positions around you provides absolutely NO advantage to you? I'm just gonna shake my head and walk away from this one... Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2435	Posted - 2014.09.06 18:42:00 - [10] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Ok, perhaps maybe I can agree with this. Allow the scouts to see redberries through the walls but limit the information to the minimap and not the field of vision. PS: I run primarily Minmatar scout so I don't take advantage of the EWAR because it has none. Wait wait wait... did you just say EWAR has no advantage? Being constantly fed enemy positions around you provides absolutely NO advantage to you? I'm just gonna shake my head and walk away from this one... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I'm talking about the Minmatar Scout having no EWAR advantage! Perhaps I should've worded it better. I'm tired today. Oh, well yeah that's true... But think about it this way, if red dots through walls were removed then every Scout would be a lot more balanced vs each other as well as vs the other suits. Scouts would still be able to tell people are around them via looking at their radar and seeing the chevrons in their radius. Here's an image for clarification Follow me on Twitch.tv!

Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2441	Posted - 2014.09.06 23:33:00 - [11] - Quote Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: CLARIFICATION ABOUT MY SUGGESTION: Red dots would still appear on your RADAR, as in that thing on the top left of your screen that you may or may not have known exists. Red dots will cease to appear on your SCREEN as to prevent you knowing exactly where enemies are around you at all times. EWAR would still exist, only in a more limited fashion since it's clearly broken in its current implementation. The idea would make it a lot harder for Scouts to play whack-a-mole with the red dots that pop up all around them. IMAGE FOR CLARIFICATION RADAR is not perfect - does not show the height of target(redberry on radar), so chevrons on your screen are necessary. Are you serious? That's my entire point! The radar and scanning shouldn't be perfect. It's "perfect" the way it is now because I have a 360 degree aura of exact enemy positions conveniently pasted with red chevrons on my screen. Passive scans should not be perfect. I can totally agree that the Active Scanner should still provide exact positions because it's got a long list of drawbacks to it (duration, long cooldown, equipment slot, fitting costs, etc.). What drawbacks do passive scans have, specifically on Scouts? Go on, I'll wait. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2441	Posted - 2014.09.06 23:35:00 - [12] - Quote Kin Cat wrote: then again i dont know. you'd think in a futuristic society they'd have better scanning technology than we do. and we can already scan through walls with X-rays. i don't know if we can apply it to a battle situation but im sure new eden could i agree that there should be some sort of "commando" light frame that sacrifices EWAR for slaying ability You have to understand that balancing around lore is not something you do in an FPS. Yes, I'm sure they could have amazing tactical networks that feed every soldier enemy positions 100% of the time with chips implanted in their brains to make it so they never miss and blah blah blah... It doesn't matter what shooter it is, you have to balance around gameplay and not "Well in the future they would have...". Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2448	Posted - 2014.09.07 21:53:00 - [13] - Quote ratamaq doc wrote: Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: What drawbacks do passive scans have Passive scans can not penetrate ground level of map. So if you are on flat ground with one hill, away from any outpost structures, and there is Militia Heavy behind that hill, and you can not see his shape on your screen, you can not see his signature ether even if he is 5 meters from you. Passive scanner mechanic is construct in way that allows you to detect enemy signatures behind solid walls, buildings, and plenty of materials that should interact and disrupt your 'sound detector', as you already know. If you only have range and precision to detect it, you will detect it with one exception - ground level of map - if target is behind it you will not detect his signature no matter how many modules you use or skills you have, ground level is not penetrable 'wall'. Both of the following images are from this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqiWBB6gWXw&list=UUBw0rF1WiMtNMkfRZhXxGzw Passive scanning seeing through terrain. http://imgur.com/5TWomim Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: Are you serious? That's my entire point! It is RADAR of your DROPSUIT so it should work in 3D, it is not RADAR of spaceship that see battleground in 2D. because I have a 360 degree aura BS, you have 60 degree scanning range on your Dropsuit, you see redberry on your 'back' because squad-mates see them in they 60 degree angle and squad scans are shared. Stop spreading BS, you knowledge about how passive scan works is basic. Active Scanner should still provide exact positions It takes 3kk less SP to skill it on lvl5, so no.. you are wrong, again. Passive scanning showing marks more than 60-¦ out of my FOV. http://imgur.com/YHE3cku I was not in a squad, (notice the my dot is blue), so I was only getting intel from my passives. Maybe you are visiting us from 2012? Hey! welcome to 2014. Scanning hasn't worked the way you are describing since uprising 1.4. Do us a favor go back and tell the 2013 Devs that the vehicle changes in 1.7 are moronic, and to make sure they get that decimal right on the militia booster! Don't know why you bothered responding to him. The guy's a troll and a blatant idiot. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2448	Posted - 2014.09.07 22:41:00 - [14] - Quote ReGnYuM wrote: On a happier note: Funk you wanna run some stream some pubs tonight? I'd be down. I haven't streamed in a while since the viewer count was always so low and I'm bad at marketing myself, but I could try again. Follow me on Twitch.tv!