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Apocalyptic Destroyer
RestlessSpirits
119
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Posted - 2014.09.06 18:56:00 -
[31] - Quote
We can all agree here that Large Blasters are now scrubbish and serve no use to Infantry anymore and it does little to tanks. When in doubt, go XT-Missiles.
~R1P
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
Kyoudai Furinkazan
1158
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Posted - 2014.09.06 20:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
To me missiles need to be looked at and the fact that you are beginning to see more people using missiles are somewhat evident of such .
Yes they have drawbacks but the fact that they could destroy a maddy with and in a full clip is an issue to me .
No other turret has that type of power and yes no other turret has it's drawbacks as well but if you have them maxed in reload and the such , you have the best turret out of the bunch .
I use both and all turrets but the damage of those ( missiles ) things are an issue .
I believe that they should just bring back the turret choices of pre-1.7 , where there was variety in choices and each turret had it's pro's and con's .
These issues need discussing but by people who have skilled into vehicles and the same , who have a stake in the matter and seeing vehicle use and warfare become better without being more overpowering to infantry .
People who casually use vehicles and have no investment in the same ... shouldn't be discounted but their comments need to be just that , of one who has no general knowledge and no stake but to either corrupt the process or maybe say something that one might just not be seeing that would help the process .
The bulk of this conversation must come from vehicle users .
Too many times and in too many cases we see players who's intent is to destroy a role for whatever reason and these same people are just not called out for doing so .
CCP should understand that by now and make better choices in what is considered and the direction that is taken .
Delta should come with a SP or infantry SP refund so that a campaign for one is not needed .
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Zatara Rought
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
4152
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Posted - 2014.09.06 22:02:00 -
[33] - Quote
Wow, thatm ade a lot of sense Tebu.
Thanks for explaining all that. My premise was based on the truth that I can beat any tank with my rail gunlogi no matter the range...but I never really face off vs competent tankers. I rarely tank and when I do it's rail at whatever range.
I didn't even know maddies could aim down as I've never used them outside of chrome and my usage was very limited, I never learned the nuances.
I totally see your idea for turrets making the tank game waaaay more fun, I guess my only concern would be making sure we limit the effectiveness of large turrets vs infantry. Even now large blasters are pretty damn deadly and it's not that difficult.
B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA
They call me ~Princess Zatata~
Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
1010
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Posted - 2014.09.06 22:32:00 -
[34] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:Wow, thatm ade a lot of sense Tebu.
Thanks for explaining all that. My premise was based on the truth that I can beat any tank with my rail gunlogi no matter the range...but I never really face off vs competent tankers. I rarely tank and when I do it's rail at whatever range.
I didn't even know maddies could aim down as I've never used them outside of chrome and my usage was very limited, I never learned the nuances.
I totally see your idea for turrets making the tank game waaaay more fun, I guess my only concern would be making sure we limit the effectiveness of large turrets vs infantry. Even now large blasters are pretty damn deadly and it's not that difficult. I didn't read Tebu's post because it's too much text but Rail is still superior to any other turret at any range in AV situation, that's why you only see Rail turrets in PCs when they are fighting other vehicles. Actually, missiles are far better at taking down Incubus, but that's about it. Everyone uses shield tanks in PCs so no need for missiles there if they are only good against one type of vehicle in the whole match which stays up high all game anyway.
If you reduce the large turret effectiveness against infantry then the only job remaining for tanks in PCs is to destroy ADS, and forge does a much better job at that. So you completely remove the need for tanks in PCs. For pubs they still have their purpose with gunners. But if tanks can't hurt infantry, then there is no need for tanks currently. You might be saying to take out LAVs but they are few and far between and tanks are not even effective at taking out LAVs because they can just drive away from you in the blink of an eye.
Nobody wants to bring out tanks just to take out other tanks. Because tanks are becoming quite rare already, not quite as rare as in 1.6, but still rare, so you don't always get any enemy tanks on the field, so what do you do then when you have no one to kill and you don't have your gunner online and no one else wants to gun for you (because trust me, a lot of people don't want to be gunners) and all your SP is in vehicles?
Tanks need the power to kill infantry to create the need for AV tanks. If there were MAVs that are for anti infantry then you don't need anti infantry capabilities for tanks, but you don't have MAVs, do you?
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance
1187
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Posted - 2014.09.07 02:21:00 -
[35] - Quote
MarasdF Loron wrote: If you reduce the large turret effectiveness against infantry then the only job remaining for tanks in PCs is to destroy ADS, and forge does a much better job at that.
This so much. Making them purely AV focused is a BAD idea. I've made the argument that tanks be more AV focused with the emphasis on equipping turrets for AI, YET, that argument was some what conditional. I also wanted AI large turrets that were effective against infantry but faltered against other vehicles.
In this way there would actually be a need for AV tanks, otherwise tanks have no actual role that isn't trumped by other classes, IE AV and ADS. That is the biggest problem we are coming into with this focus that a Large is solely AV, and smalls are solely AI.
As I said, we have seen what happens when you nerf the large blaster into oblivion against infantry, TANKS BECOME OBSOLETE. I still view PC as a good indicator of what's imbalanced and even now, tanks are VERY sparse. To the point you can do with a FG over the tank easily.
SO please rethink your approach Rattati.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
4818
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Posted - 2014.09.07 03:48:00 -
[36] - Quote
Dergle wrote:So all large turrets are technically AV? I thought the blaster was anti-infantry.
That was before tanks were made pointless.
Infantry are allowed to kill tanks, tanks are allowed to kill tanks, ADS are allowed to kill tanks.
Tanks are not allowed to kill infantry or ADS.
Didn't you know?
So do your part, call in your tank and go kill those other tanks that are accomplishing nothing. What are you waiting for, sir? |
Dergle
Kiith Sobani
32
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Posted - 2014.09.07 06:51:00 -
[37] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Dergle wrote:So all large turrets are technically AV? I thought the blaster was anti-infantry. That was before tanks were made pointless. Infantry are allowed to kill tanks, tanks are allowed to kill tanks, ADS are allowed to kill tanks. Tanks are not allowed to kill infantry or ADS. Didn't you know? So do your part, call in your tank and go kill those other tanks that are accomplishing nothing. What are you waiting for, sir?
Ahah for I fly a pie in the sky and I make sure no tanks are alive.
DUST is not a democracy!
Ain't nobody want to hear your problems, Everyone got problems.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
2625
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Posted - 2014.09.07 10:06:00 -
[38] - Quote
As an AV gunner I believe that yes, large turrets should be more AV focused.
I do not believe they should be neutered Vs. Infantry. While I agree with the rail and forge changes, the Blaster should retain some utility as point defense at close range. Less effective than having small turrets and supporting infantry? Absolutely. But not neutered. |
Evolution-7
The Rainbow Effect
650
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Posted - 2014.09.07 10:47:00 -
[39] - Quote
LOOOOOOOOOL, if everything is AV then why would you call an AV tank to kill another AV tank if it is doing no damage to infantry, the only thing that it could do is kill supply depots and turrets etc, which are also useless in this game.
It should be that you call a AP tank to deal with a mass of infantry somewhere then to counter that a AV tank is called.
CCP Logic = MINDBLOWN!
EVE: LEGION ON PS4
RIP DUST. So much potential, December 2011 to May 2014
Veteran Pilot, Fight on and fly on!
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
1014
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Posted - 2014.09.07 11:25:00 -
[40] - Quote
Evolution-7 wrote:LOOOOOOOOOL, if everything is AV then why would you call an AV tank to kill another AV tank if it is doing no damage to infantry, the only thing that it could do is kill supply depots and turrets etc, which are also useless in this game. It should be that you call a AP tank to deal with a mass of infantry somewhere then to counter that a AV tank is called. CCP Logic = MINDBLOWN! No, the enemy calls in AV tank to deal with nothing and then you call in AV tank to deal with the enemy AV tank that is not being a threat to anyone but hey it's free WP and then after that you deal with nothing or recall.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1260
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Posted - 2014.09.07 12:04:00 -
[41] - Quote
Meee One wrote:Rizlax Yazzax wrote:I believe Rattati explicitly stated large blasters are AV a while back. Hence the increased dispersion to make it less effective on infantry.
Can't be arsed to find the thread but pretty sure that's the case. 98% of the time i see Large blasters killing infantry. Ironically i only ever see small turrets on rails to make up for their lack of spray and pray ability. Large blasters should be renerfed,they shouldn't be able to snipe an uplink from 100m,or for that matter infantry.
All three points of this post are wrong. Recommend everyone to ignore this.
People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
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CommanderBolt
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
1481
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Posted - 2014.09.07 12:09:00 -
[42] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:If I was to make an assertion rails should have the best DPS at range, but i'd make it so that at CQC rails were less effective at tank brawling so that in cqc blasters > missiles > rails in cqc and rails > missiles > blasters at range. Blaster need to be vehicles dominators at cqc Missile need to be worse than rails at range and blasters at CQC but pretty good at both Rails need to be ****** in CQC (taking away infantry terrorizing splash will help) and it needs to dominate at range. I also feel giving rails 400 meter range would be good. Missiles need to be good out to like 250-300m and yet be pretty damn good at brawling tanks but just overall be out dps'ed by blaster effectiveness if they are within say..40-50 meters. I'd take missiles if I'm planning on doing a little bit of everything and I am just a better pilot overall because I can overcome my disadvantages against blasters and rail in their ranges through stratagem or superior play. I'm also pushing for tanks to be able to rotate the turrets higher because currently ads can just own tanks. The only counter to being owned by an ads atm is to jump out with a forge and I think that's poor counterplay. tanks obviously shouldn't be able to look straight up, but they need a little bit better height.
So basically all of the things the Judge was pushing for are now being turned on their head?
I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with any of you, I just wish you collectively had a set goal instead of everyone having their own idea of what is right, and thus nothing changes in game / things KEEP changing in game without any real direction or purpose.
-=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=-
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
"I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1260
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Posted - 2014.09.07 12:09:00 -
[43] - Quote
Consider that Lg Blaster is the weakest of three Lg turret types in AV work, that it could have somewhat better performance in AP function than those other two.
Besides, mounting blasters means that those tanks put themselves into the reach of all AV, including those scary AV nade volleys. Rails and missiles can avoid that while killing at range.
People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1260
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Posted - 2014.09.07 12:12:00 -
[44] - Quote
MarasdF Loron wrote:Leeroy Gannarsein wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:MarasdF Loron wrote:So, I might have fallen out of the loop here at some point but are Large Blasters meant to be anti infantry or anti vehicle? I'm just wondering because the Large Railgun outperforms the Large Blaster at both roles. Large Railgun takes one shot to kill most infantry, works at close to far range and is more effective at taking out other vehicles at close to far range as well.
The only thing in favor of the Large Blaster is that it doesn't require aiming thanks to the dispersion. You just point it generally in the right direction and hold the trigger down and wait for kills to happen. If you aim it directly at your enemies then it's still no more effective at it's job.
So the "problem" with Large Railgun is that it requires aiming, but if you got aim, there's no reason to go for the Blaster. It's accuracy is poor, range is poor and damage is poor.
Not asking for any changes to be made here, I just want to know what it's meant for because currently there is very little incentive to use it for anything if you know how to aim. I only ever use it when I want to relax and don't want to aim, instead just point it roughly at my enemies and hope that it hits something enough times to kill it.
Edit: Just realized this might be in the wrong section. Oh well, damage is already done. Blaster kills infantry far better than the railgun. You can claim to have aim, but you certainly aren't going to go around with a large railgun and kill infantry that doesn't stand still for you. Sure you get a lucky shot now and again, and some are more consistent, but the fact still remains a blaster will outperform a rail in most all situations. When it comes to killing infantry that is. Added note, I use blasters to deal with shield tanks, works GREAT. Missiles for maddies, and a railgun for versatility simply due to nature of it. But more often then not, a railgun gunnlogi isn't going to beat my blaster gunnlogi in a straight up fight. this. Fighting at close range with a blaster is orders of magnitude easier than the same with a railgun. There isn't any margin for error with a rail; if you miss one shot by the time you cool down enough to fire again the blaster's got the advantage through sheer sustained fire. The railgun's better more because it's versatile than because it's still CQC king. Learn to aim, learn to maneuver, learn to be aware of your surroundings and you wont lose to a blaster tank in 1v1, ever, not with a rail.
Ever? How about if the rail pilot has learned to aim, maneuver, knows surroundings like back of his hand plus knows how to conserve shots? Caldari hulls with rails have surprisingly good cqc agility. Ever is such a harsh word.
People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
1014
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Posted - 2014.09.07 12:14:00 -
[45] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:MarasdF Loron wrote:Leeroy Gannarsein wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:MarasdF Loron wrote:So, I might have fallen out of the loop here at some point but are Large Blasters meant to be anti infantry or anti vehicle? I'm just wondering because the Large Railgun outperforms the Large Blaster at both roles. Large Railgun takes one shot to kill most infantry, works at close to far range and is more effective at taking out other vehicles at close to far range as well.
The only thing in favor of the Large Blaster is that it doesn't require aiming thanks to the dispersion. You just point it generally in the right direction and hold the trigger down and wait for kills to happen. If you aim it directly at your enemies then it's still no more effective at it's job.
So the "problem" with Large Railgun is that it requires aiming, but if you got aim, there's no reason to go for the Blaster. It's accuracy is poor, range is poor and damage is poor.
Not asking for any changes to be made here, I just want to know what it's meant for because currently there is very little incentive to use it for anything if you know how to aim. I only ever use it when I want to relax and don't want to aim, instead just point it roughly at my enemies and hope that it hits something enough times to kill it.
Edit: Just realized this might be in the wrong section. Oh well, damage is already done. Blaster kills infantry far better than the railgun. You can claim to have aim, but you certainly aren't going to go around with a large railgun and kill infantry that doesn't stand still for you. Sure you get a lucky shot now and again, and some are more consistent, but the fact still remains a blaster will outperform a rail in most all situations. When it comes to killing infantry that is. Added note, I use blasters to deal with shield tanks, works GREAT. Missiles for maddies, and a railgun for versatility simply due to nature of it. But more often then not, a railgun gunnlogi isn't going to beat my blaster gunnlogi in a straight up fight. this. Fighting at close range with a blaster is orders of magnitude easier than the same with a railgun. There isn't any margin for error with a rail; if you miss one shot by the time you cool down enough to fire again the blaster's got the advantage through sheer sustained fire. The railgun's better more because it's versatile than because it's still CQC king. Learn to aim, learn to maneuver, learn to be aware of your surroundings and you wont lose to a blaster tank in 1v1, ever, not with a rail. Ever? How about if the rail pilot has learned to aim, maneuver, knows surroundings like back of his hand plus knows how to conserve shots? Caldari hulls with rails have surprisingly good cqc agility. Ever is such a harsh word. Umm... you just repeated what I had already said.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1260
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Posted - 2014.09.07 12:20:00 -
[46] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:
I'm just going to point this section out as I think it sums up what you are trying to say.
. . .
An excellent analysis by a clearly experienced tanker. Those things should be known well while planning the turret fine balance.
(examples seem just ideas though, not ready to implement as such)
People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1260
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Posted - 2014.09.07 12:29:00 -
[47] - Quote
MarasdF Loron wrote: I didn't read Tebu's post because it's too much text but Rail is still superior to any other turret at any range in AV situation, that's why you only see Rail turrets in PCs when they are fighting other vehicles. Actually, missiles are far better at taking down Incubus, but that's about it. Everyone uses shield tanks in PCs so no need for missiles there if they are only good against one type of vehicle in the whole match which stays up high all game anyway.
Btw you really should read Tebu's post. Now, the rails are no longer superior to missiles, even at range. Only at extreme last 80-100% of rail max range of course missiles can't hit. But rail tanks stabilizing to get their shot can be quick vollied at far far distance with good missiles. So -1 for your first paragraph.
MarasdF Loron wrote: If you reduce the large turret effectiveness against infantry then the only job remaining for tanks in PCs is to destroy ADS, and forge does a much better job at that. So you completely remove the need for tanks in PCs. For pubs they still have their purpose with gunners. But if tanks can't hurt infantry, then there is no need for tanks currently. You might be saying to take out LAVs but they are few and far between and tanks are not even effective at taking out LAVs because they can just drive away from you in the blink of an eye.
Nobody wants to bring out tanks just to take out other tanks. Because tanks are becoming quite rare already, not quite as rare as in 1.6, but still rare, so you don't always get any enemy tanks on the field, so what do you do then when you have no one to kill and you don't have your gunner online and no one else wants to gun for you (because trust me, a lot of people don't want to be gunners) and all your SP is in vehicles?
Tanks need the power to kill infantry to create the need for AV tanks. If there were MAVs that are for anti infantry then you don't need anti infantry capabilities for tanks, but you don't have MAVs, do you?
Well there you are absolutely right. +1 Bonus points for the MAX comment.
People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1260
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Posted - 2014.09.07 12:31:00 -
[48] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Dergle wrote:So all large turrets are technically AV? I thought the blaster was anti-infantry. That was before tanks were made pointless. Infantry are allowed to kill tanks, tanks are allowed to kill tanks, ADS are allowed to kill tanks. Tanks are not allowed to kill infantry or ADS. Didn't you know? So do your part, call in your tank and go kill those other tanks that are accomplishing nothing. What are you waiting for, sir?
Luckily that is not the situation. Yet.
People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
1015
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Posted - 2014.09.07 12:37:00 -
[49] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:MarasdF Loron wrote: I didn't read Tebu's post because it's too much text but Rail is still superior to any other turret at any range in AV situation, that's why you only see Rail turrets in PCs when they are fighting other vehicles. Actually, missiles are far better at taking down Incubus, but that's about it. Everyone uses shield tanks in PCs so no need for missiles there if they are only good against one type of vehicle in the whole match which stays up high all game anyway.
Btw you really should read Tebu's post. Now, the rails are no longer superior to missiles, even at range. Only at extreme last 80-100% of rail max range of course missiles can't hit. But rail tanks stabilizing to get their shot can be quick vollied at far far distance with good missiles. So -1 for your first paragraph. Maybe I should. I just have never been killed by missiles when I am in a shield rail tank. I know I've taken out lots of redline shield rail tanks myself with missiles but that requires 2 complex dmg mods. And if you come across a competent tanker you are dead if you don't get the kill with first volley. Maybe I just haven't come across a good enough missile tanker to take out my shield rail. But then again they would have to do some very fancy stuff to survive after they've fired their first volley.
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
1015
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Posted - 2014.09.07 12:43:00 -
[50] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Dergle wrote:So all large turrets are technically AV? I thought the blaster was anti-infantry. That was before tanks were made pointless. Infantry are allowed to kill tanks, tanks are allowed to kill tanks, ADS are allowed to kill tanks. Tanks are not allowed to kill infantry or ADS. Didn't you know? So do your part, call in your tank and go kill those other tanks that are accomplishing nothing. What are you waiting for, sir? Luckily that is not the situation. Yet. It's very close to that in PC already. Which is why I don't even bother about PC anymore, I might hop into one randomly but that's about it, I'm surprised I haven't been kicked yet, but then again, they don't really need tankers anyway for PC so, eh..
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance
1191
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Posted - 2014.09.07 17:18:00 -
[51] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:
I'm just going to point this section out as I think it sums up what you are trying to say.
. . .
An excellent analysis by a clearly experienced tanker. Those things should be known well while planning the turret fine balance. (examples seem just ideas though, not ready to implement as such)
Yeah idea's I kinda threw out there so that CPM could get a feel for what I was speaking of when I say tanks are somewhat stagnant now. I think it's a direction we need to move in with turrets. Idea is the turrets work in a way that complement tank hulls, as well as being AV or AI focused.
I want to create a need for AV tanks on the field, but I don't want AI tanks to be overly powerful in the AV department. Running AI means you put yourself at a serious disadvantage against other vehicles on the field, and while you can fit for gunners to help mitigate that disadvantage, you will still be at a disadvantage, and there will be minus 2 infantry from the field.
Hell, just increasing the PG/CPU req of an "AI" turret above that of the AV turrets would mean an AI tank is physically weaker against infantry AV or other tanks due to the lack of PG/CPU for tank.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance
1191
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Posted - 2014.09.07 17:23:00 -
[52] - Quote
MarasdF Loron wrote:KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:MarasdF Loron wrote: I didn't read Tebu's post because it's too much text but Rail is still superior to any other turret at any range in AV situation, that's why you only see Rail turrets in PCs when they are fighting other vehicles. Actually, missiles are far better at taking down Incubus, but that's about it. Everyone uses shield tanks in PCs so no need for missiles there if they are only good against one type of vehicle in the whole match which stays up high all game anyway.
Btw you really should read Tebu's post. Now, the rails are no longer superior to missiles, even at range. Only at extreme last 80-100% of rail max range of course missiles can't hit. But rail tanks stabilizing to get their shot can be quick vollied at far far distance with good missiles. So -1 for your first paragraph. Maybe I should. I just have never been killed by missiles when I am in a shield rail tank. I know I've taken out lots of redline shield rail tanks myself with missiles but that requires 2 complex dmg mods. And if you come across a competent tanker you are dead if you don't get the kill with first volley. Maybe I just haven't come across a good enough missile tanker to take out my shield rail. But then again they would have to do some very fancy stuff to survive after they've fired their first volley. EDIT: I've never paid attention to the dmg profile of missiles in game but I heard they were like -40/+20 atm so when they fix that, maybe they will actually become more deadly. But somehow I recall them being -31/+20 or so, but like I said, I haven't paid attention that much.
Missiles are my baby, always loved them (more before they changed them). True against shield tanks they require some fancy driving, but if you can manage to get 2 volleys into a shield tank, you are in a decent position. Even then I know it's rough. I came across a decent gunnlogi with 5300 shields and a hardener in my missile tank, and managed to win.
But that required 4 to 5 volleys, and fortuanatly I was able to trick him into going around a socket as I went down into the socket. He expected to flank me, instead I came up behind him and finished him. But often times I don't bother trying with missiles, I'll switch out to a rail or blaster (blasters work very good against a shield tank when it's running missiles).
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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