CamClarke
Inner.Hell
60
   |
Posted - 2014.08.26 14:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'd like this to be a constructive thread discussing the current CQC/Scout/Sentinel meta. Please, share your thoughts on it.
Below are my own personal opinions and observations on it, colored with large amounts of butthurt because I mad. They largely relate to Skirmish maps.
I am quite fed up with this current meta. I appreciate that Rattati is trying, really, I do, but the proliferation of unscannable (some even with a gk.0 logi's Focused Active Scanner, which has poor angle, recharge, and scan duration) shotgun scouts combined with the ungodly amounts of Sentinel spam is quickly making it so there is no reason to use anything else. Anything that can't see EVERYTHING dies horribly, unless it has 1.8k EHP and moves only slightly faster than the average snail. CQC is very obviously the new meta, as competent cloaked scouts no longer have to fear being spotted by anything, can outstrafe non-alpha weapons if they are spotted, and can provide nearly as much (or more, thanks to speed) logistics power as people that spent 2 million SP on a real logistics suit. CQC is so widespread that I am actually having more success in stopping Scouts/Sentinels while solo with a STD shotgun on a STD assault than with most PRO rifles on other fits.
My frustration lies in that what suits I do have (Caldari Assault, Caldari Commando, and Gallente Logistics) are worthless when compared to the Scouts and Sentinels. An Assault is still non-viable, as they can't pick up anything smaller than a dump truck on passive scans, and even then it's only when they're almost right on top of you. Chances are, it's a Sentinel, with a Six Kin BHMG, so if you do try to run and get some range on him, he's still coming around that corner and killing you in one or two bursts. You'll never see a Scout on passive in a non-Scout suit, even completely undampened, so they can always get the drop on you, killing you instantly. Medium suits are the prey of unseen Scouts and monstrous Sentinels, both of which Medium-class suits have a difficult time dealing with due to the fact that Mediums are mediocre at everything. Sure, you can get into a position where you can provide overwatch, but any Commando does that job better.
Gallente Logistics would be good, were it not for the fact that ever since Active Scanners were nerfed into oblivion, Scouts can simply see more, more often, in 360 degrees, while fighting effectively. Being "useful" as a Gallente Logistics involves staying in one safe, preferably ladderless rooftop location cycling two or more scanners, as they lack the HP to get in the fighting without dying almost immediately. If bricked, they move about as fast as an Amarr Sentinel, so they cannot dodge or reach cover. If not bricked, they still do not move very fast, and die even faster because passive reps are completely irrelevant in the current state of the game. Either way, Logistics suits lack the damage capabilities necessary for dealing with Sentinels and cannot evade a competent Scout under most circumstances long enough to kill it. Apparently Minmatar Logistics are pretty good at keeping the Sentinel swarm up and running, but that's probably the only thing any of the four Logistics can do that a scout cannot do just as well or better.
It seems like the only viable non-Scout, non-Sentinel suits are the Caldari Commando and Minmatar Commando, both of which require you to sit in one good position and do nothing else but provide overwatch/shoot at vehicles. Caldari has the Rail Rifle, so can provide top-notch rifle-based overwatch once perched with Swarms as AV backup, while the Minmatar Commando has Mass Drivers, Swarm Launchers, and Combat Rifles, giving them a little bit of ground power and decent overwatch, but mostly used for easy AV with its big bonus to Swarms.
I'm happy that Scouts and Sentinels are having fun with their time in the sun, but it is the entire Medium suit range that is paying the price. Mediums have nothing to call their own, and are outperformed at almost every turn. Literally half of the available dropsuits (4 Assaults, 4 Logistics, 2 Commandos) have been marginalized due to their jobs being able to be done better by the other half (4 Sentinels, 4 Scouts, 2 Commandos). I have no ideas on how to fix it though, since the game is actually in the most balanced state it's been in since Chromosome.
Can't give Assaults more damage, otherwise they push out Commandos. Can't give them more equipment slots, pushes out Logistics. Can't give them eWar, because it'll still be worthless on non-Scouts. They just got a HP buff, which, while welcome and breathed a little life into them, was simply not enough to overcome their other problems. They are simply the kings of mediocrity. Being a jack of all trades in a game were you MUST be a master of at least one is a recipe for having a bad time. Their only value is in a pub match, where they will still be HMG'd and shotgunned until forced to rage quit.
Can't give Logistics more HP, otherwise they push out Assaults. Can't give them damage, can't give them eWar, they're fine on equipment. They share most problems of Assaults, while being even more dependent on teammates to make up for their myriad weaknesses.
I honestly do not know what the underlying problem is that is making HMGs/Shotguns suddenly so amazing and the go-to weapons. At what point did the rifles become useless? Was it the nerfs to all of them? Or was it a chain reaction of Scouts getting cloaks, using rifles, then people switching to Sentinel to gun them and everyone else down, then Scouts switching to the high-alpha Shotguns to kill the Sentinels?
The current meta has been a massive source of frustration to me while I wait to get the SP to chase the FOTM myself just to stay relevant. My only solace is that the triple SP week starts tomorrow, which will put me all of halfway to my goal. With an Omega booster.
tl;dr: scout and heavy qq, i need to git gud, etc etc |
CamClarke
Inner.Hell
70
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 12:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
Well, this thread certainly picked up. Even got the attention of Ratatti, which is nice.
@CCP Ratatti:
I'm glad you're keeping a close eye on things. Having kept up with the information, I know that the rifles are actually doing pretty well without one being blatantly better than the others.
Yes, the BHMG is quite obviously overperforming, and that one could stand some tweaking. I don't even hear many dedicated Sentinels disputing or defending it. It was pretty good before the buff from what I understand, but outclassed a bit by full-auto HMGs. The BHMG should most likely be just tweaked back to just slightly above what it was before Charlie, but I'm by no means an expert on them.
I don't feel that Shotguns themselves are what are causing them to be so high in the metrics, as their extreme damage is balanced out by extremely short range. Before cloaks came along, it was amazingly rare to see anyone use a Shotgun at all, with the exception of Annie Oakley and Calamity Jane way back in the day when those two terrorized us all. As I recall, Shotguns are one of the few weapons that have gone through virtually no changes throughout the lifetime of Dust. As others have stated, it is most likely the fact that Scouts now have the tools to get in extremely short range fairly safely, often undetected until it is too late, because there are simply no good means of detecting them other than another Scout or a gk.0 Logi, neither of which is guaranteed to spot them. As George Moros above said, the core principle of the Shotguns' and Scouts' backstabbing uses is correct and should be unchanged. The main problem is that it is too easy to set up these backstab scenarios. It also works wonders playing peek-a-boo even with your presence known versus non-Sentinels, as all it takes is rounding the nearest corner or box to force CQC.
As an aside to the above, you could say "throw a grenade" but the various nerfs to grenades have caused people to almost exclusively use Flux grenades, as they are more utilitarian and still most likely will do almost as much or more effective damage depending on the target. I think the last time I saw a Locus grenade kill was a few days ago, when I threw it at a wounded, trapped, being rifled down Sentinel that would have died anyway. And one that got me, when I was at 100 armor and would have died anyway. Fluxes are better than nothing though, I suppose.
I wonder, Ratatti, does your data happen to have a breakdown of what weapons are killing various suit types? If so, I'm curious to know if Shotguns are performing equally against them all or if there is some sort of disparity.
I'm glad to see you're considering buffs for shield-based tanking. If possible, I would very much like to see a (very very, almost nonexistent) small damage threshold on shield regen, like vehicles have, simply because it's far too easy to plink someone with a weapon far outside of effective range to stop it, a weakness armor-repping tanks do not have. It would go a long way to improve the quality of life of shield users.
@ Ryme Intrinseca: Its problems run deeper than just a lack of useful eWar, even in a squad setup. As far as skilling into a Scout, well, I'm working on it.
@Everyone else: Thank you for all your contributions to this thread. I can't reply to everyone individually of course, but I did read it all. Certainly saw good things. |