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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
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Posted - 2014.08.26 18:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
Apothecary Za'ki wrote:Joel II X wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:P.P.S Shotguns and Burst HMG are OP Shotguns are definitely NOT OP. Their RoF has been nerfed since the proficiency change, their range is horrible, and their worst quality (if I could call it that) is the hit detection. Not only that, but the operation skill makes it harder to use per level, awkwardly enough. If a change is coming to the shotgun, let it be the operation skill and change it to RoF or something useful. Maybe an increase in pellet count or hit detection (lol). advanced and proto shotguns can easly 2shot kill from like 0-15 meters meters with a TTK of like 1 second 2-shot at 15m, heh?
Sounds like an easy experiment. Please link video.
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Posted - 2014.08.26 19:29:00 -
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Cass Caul wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Apothecary Za'ki wrote:Joel II X wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:P.P.S Shotguns and Burst HMG are OP Shotguns are definitely NOT OP. Their RoF has been nerfed since the proficiency change, their range is horrible, and their worst quality (if I could call it that) is the hit detection. Not only that, but the operation skill makes it harder to use per level, awkwardly enough. If a change is coming to the shotgun, let it be the operation skill and change it to RoF or something useful. Maybe an increase in pellet count or hit detection (lol). advanced and proto shotguns can easly 2shot kill from like 0-15 meters meters with a TTK of like 1 second 2-shot at 15m, heh? Sounds like an easy experiment. Please link video. At 15m a Shotgun only does 10% damage. . . if you got killed at 15 meters than either someone else was damaging you or you survived the previous damage with a sliver of health left. Would prefer for members of the anti-shotgun crowd to see for themselves how the weapon performs outside of 5, 10, and 15 meters. They continue to ascribe magical properties to the SG; they either don't understand us or they don't believe us when we say the weapon's range is severely limited.
Firsthand observation is the only cure.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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4489
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Posted - 2014.08.26 22:02:00 -
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Cody Sietz wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:P.P.S Shotguns and Burst HMG are OP You can't be serious about the shotgun thing.
Rattati is likely referring to usage statistics. Apparently, shotguns are popular.
How popular do you think are Breach Shotguns? More popular than a Flaylock pistol, perhaps?
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- Ripley Riley
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4522
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Posted - 2014.08.27 18:16:00 -
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Derpty Derp wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:The data is both popularity and efficiency, the Breach is both unpopular and has worse efficiency than all the other weapons. I think the latter explains the former. Shotguns also have the issue of the basic being just as useful as the proto... So everyone can use the cheap stuff to farm easily in pubs & keep their costs low... Seen people running basic shotguns on proto suits... they still 2 shot a heavy... . Which heavy can be 2HK'd by a Basic Shotgun?
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Posted - 2014.08.27 20:01:00 -
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Derpty Derp wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Derpty Derp wrote: Seen people running basic shotguns on proto suits... they still 2 shot a heavy... .
Which heavy can be 2HK'd by a Basic Shotgun? Headshots, which aren't exactly hard at shotgun range, even though most couldn't hit a barn door if it was right infront of them... You can also 1 shot a lot of squishier suits with it.
Balancing the shotgun in terms of headshots is an unreasonable standard.
First, the Shotgun's hit detection is too unreliable for it to be recast as a "skillshot" weapon. Shots on target routinely miss. This is one of primary reasons why the Breach Shotgun is a poor choice.
Second, the Shotgun is easier to evade than any other light weapon (excluding plasma cannon). When engaging a moving target, firing center mass has been and will remain the shotgunner's best bet at not wasting his shot.
Third, we've yet to balance any other CQC weapon in terms of headshot damage. Why would we start with the least likely candidate?
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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4549
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Posted - 2014.08.27 21:26:00 -
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zzZaXxx wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:P.P.S Shotguns and Burst HMG are OP TBH the problem is cloaking. It's fun for scouts. For everyone else theres no game plan for it. I can be doing everything right and get shot in the back, try to fight back, get shot again and die. The only thing for it is to stick in tight groups. Grouping is good in general but to have no freedom to move around on your own because you KNOW you'll be shot in the back severely limits players' behaviors. Were all just herding around in little groups for safety. Cloak has made Dust more predictable and frustrating for most of the players. Remove cloaking and buff scouts in other ways. More speed and base HP, and interesting racial bonuses to replace the cloak bonus. Speed, scanning, scout bonuses, and the extra equipment slot are more than enough to make scouts stand apart from assaults. Rattati PLEASE don't look at cloaking as sacrosanct. It was an interesting experiment, but we were enjoying Dust before it came along. It breaks the game too much and requires everyone to adapt to it--the definition of imbalance. Would a petition be useful?
^ This is a fair opinion.
We're getting closer and closer to frame balance, but I agree that there's still room for further improvements on Scouts. I've serious reservations about pulling cloak, but if it the right answer then so be it. That said, it is likely a better idea to polish what content we have rather than to scrap it.
A number of Scouts have suggested that we add a delay between decloak and "doing things" ... I think such a tweak would help with the Cloak, the Scout and the Shotgun.
Shoot scout with yes.
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Posted - 2014.08.27 22:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
Also, we can't blame the current "herding" behavior on cloak or scouts. There was far less herding and far more cloaking in 1.8 and 1.8A than now. The blobs began in earnest 1.8B.
Shoot scout with yes.
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4552
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Posted - 2014.08.27 22:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
zzZaXxx wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Also, we can't safely blame the current "herding" behavior on cloak or scouts. There was far less herding and far more cloaking in 1.8 and 1.8A than now. The blobs began in earnest 1.8B. Yeah because players have wisened up by now. 1.8 and 1.8A was a holocaust of assassination.
Players "wisen up" within a day or two of a patch. Often faster.
Shoot scout with yes.
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Posted - 2014.08.27 22:38:00 -
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zzZaXxx wrote:Jadek Menaheim wrote:zzZaXxx wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:P.P.S Shotguns and Burst HMG are OP Rattati PLEASE don't look at cloaking as sacrosanct. It was an interesting experiment, but we were enjoying Dust before it came along. It breaks the game too much and requires everyone to adapt to it--the definition of imbalance. Would a petition be useful? As a shotty scout myself, I'm a little biased toward the cloak, but in real honesty we should really consider a longer decloak to weapon swap delay before considering removing the cloak. Is it possible to remove R2 functionality (the weapon switch button) while the cloak is active? This would mean the player must tap R1 in order to regain use of the weapon and weapon switch mechanic. Actually now that you mention it that's a better idea than just removing cloak. Give it a 6/5/4 second delay and a slightly more noticeable decloaking sound. Balance that with lower fitting costs and more dampening (5/10/15) This would make cloaking a tool for traversing the map in secret, gathering intel, and getting into position for a sneak attack, but would make more difficult for scouts the sudden death strikes against players on the fringe of groups or on their own. They could still sneak up behind you but there's more of a chance your squad mate could alert you or that you would turn and have a chance to respond before 3/4 of your HP is gone.
I don't know about these numbers, but you have the right concept.
Cloak should be useful in recon, evasion, infiltration and traversing open terrain. Cloak should not be useful in frontal assault.
As for "chance for respond" ... I disagree.
The Scout doesn't expect a "chance to respond" when facing an HMG or Fine Rifle. Why do you expect a "chance to respond" when one sneaks up directly behind you with Knives or a Shotgun?
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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4558
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Posted - 2014.08.28 04:32:00 -
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Temias Mercurial wrote: 1. Ammunition is low enough as is. Perhaps a pellet increase upon tier, after reducing the basic varient's first and go up from there? If not, then drastic increases in damage could be implemented, after the basic varient has it's reduced to a margin, making advanced and prototype varients significantly more powerful and worthwhile than the former,and again, go up from there.
2. Reduced and then increased upon tier pellets could be interesting, but my concern with that it could possibly screw around with hit detection and performance, even though it doesn't have hit detection issues currently (for me anyway), it's just that the reticule completely lies to you, implying that it's suppose to spread, but in actuality it's dead frickin' center, like the Hmg use to be, and is likely the same issue with the accuracy simply being too accurate. The accuracy could be reduced by about 0.10, like the Hmg was to actually give it spread, which increased its performance very significantly (I believe that was the amount anyway, 0.10, don't take my word for it).
3. You won't two shot a severely tanked heavy btw (unless their caldari, poor bastards...), which is likely at least or over 1400ehp with 2 shots from a basic shotgun, but it probably would need 3-5 shots in total to do so. That's the only time when an advanced or prototype shotgun comes in handy, otherwise, having a standard shotgun allows you to improve upon your fitting with the more room, and depending on their fit, makes them immensely more dangerous.
4. The breach is amazing, but having only the two shots hinders the user greatly. Even if you're sacrificing your combat abilities for increased fire power, it really puts you on the spot, and can easily get you killed in the most inopportune of situations. I think having 4 shots would be generous, but a minimum of 3 would nice, and likely increase its use a bit.
1. Agreed. Better scaling would be nice. 2. Agreed. Shotgun-like dispersion would be nice. 3. Agreed. The advanced hits for ~450/blast at 5 meters; the basic is not likely 2HK'ing heavies. 4. Disagreed. The Breach SG is in need of an overhaul; it hasn't been competitive since Chrome.
* Additionally, would love to see proficiency reverted to rate of fire.
Wish lists aside, Rattati just told us that the Shotgun is outperforming Fine Rifles. Why do you think this is, and how do you propose we fix it?
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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4562
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Posted - 2014.08.28 14:59:00 -
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voidfaction wrote:Zatara Rought wrote:Cass Caul wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:P.P.S Shotguns and Burst HMG are OP You're shitting us, right? The Shotgun is a tool for pubs. It can't compete against dropsuits with enough HP to tank 2 shots. You're shitting me right? Shotgun scouts pull numbers better than burst HMG's in PC's. But it's not the shotty, it's the cloak. If it's the cloak then AR scouts should be doing the same. It's the ability to use a 1-2 hit kill weapon straight out of cloak. If it was only the cloak then you would have the same problem with all the weapons. If they nerf the shotgun the problem will be with NK now that there use is on the rise and is also a 1-2 hit kill weapon. Funny you don't see no post about cloaked scouts and AR's Apples and Oranges.
Unless you're shooting a Scout, killing from behind takes awhile with the AR. When hit, targets have ample time to run or rotate and return fire. Targets have less time to respond when hit in the back with a Shotgun, which is news well-received for the 300HP Scout pulling the trigger.
That said, overperformance is overperformance. I'm in agreement with Zatara that cloak is playing a bigger part in shotgun performance than the shotgun itself; performance statistics -- should they exist -- will likely point to poor shotgun performance prior 1.8.
If we were somehow able to implement a very brief delay between decloak and attack, I suspect we'd see an immediate decline in shotgun usage, performance and complaints. And by "brief" I mean one second ... not six seconds (facepalm).
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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4567
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Posted - 2014.08.28 18:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bradric Banewolf wrote: Shotguns hit further than 10 meters
For very little damage. Try it ...
With your shotgun painting a target, watch your "efficiency" reading on TacNet as you step beyond 5 meters. The reduction means each pellet that lands is going to hit at a discount. Now grab a friend and shoot him at 5 meters, at 10 meters, then at 15 meters. You'll find that damage drops exponentially rather than linearly. You'll also find that variability in damage per blast increases substantially outside of 5 meters.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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