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Why do people hate tanks so much????

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TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 465	Posted - 2014.08.18 16:35:00 - [1] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Cenex Langly wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: I swear tanking is the most looked down upon out of all the other specializations so I'm just curious why do ground units hate us so much? Cost is roughly the same as a proto suit, but there are only 3 weapons (plus 1 grenade) that can hurt it. It has over 4,000 HP (on a ****** setup). So, you have 4 times the average HP as a proto suit, cost the same as a proto suit and you do 10x's more damage than any weapon in the game. Most (Missiles and rails) can one shot you. And to top it off, your speed is 2-3 times faster than any of the fastest scout. Plus, people can jump out of their armored vehicles when someone is trying to get close to it and mow them down with an HMG if they so desired. When you ask why people hate tanks, take into consideration the amount of overpowered advantage they provide. Then you can make a rational and logical assumption (or factual thought, your choice) as to the answer of your question. There are suits that cost over 500,000 ISK? A tank can't run from a forge gun A tank can die by NK's PLC's FG's and swarms that is four not to mention the countless installations ^-^ Your tank costs 500k? Hell I just run a 150k Madrugar that can mow down infantry like nobodies business. I think you are over investing if your tank costs 500k. Its like making a 150-200k scout shotgun suit, for what it does, you don't need that much state of the art do-hickeys. It's like buying a computer for the calculator app.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 465	Posted - 2014.08.18 16:39:00 - [2] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Cenex Langly wrote: When you ask why people hate tanks, take into consideration the amount of overpowered advantage they provide. Then you can make a rational and logical assumption (or factual thought, your choice) as to the answer of your question. To be fair, infantry do have some advantages that a vehicle can't replicate, such as fitting into small spaces with cover or reaching an elevated position. Using these advantages is typically the best way to counter tanks, but most people run around on the ground which is the tank's natural territory, and complain when it doesn't work. It's kinda like running towards a sniper in an open field with a shotgun in your hand and complaining that you can't win. If we are taking the cover argument at least half the maps are small cover areas surrounded by wide open spaces. Essentially, the infantry tank relation is akin to the film "The Reef" You can swim from cover to cover but the tank can overtake and kill you. There are many maps and situations where if I want to get from objective X to objective Y I'm going to have to wonder out into the open where a tank can come flooring from across the map and gobble me up. I think the other person's argument still stands that people dislike tanks because they have many upsides and few downsides. This is the reason why people don't like any sort of thing in this game or any other pvp game. People despise things that have far more pros then cons.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 465	Posted - 2014.08.18 16:44:00 - [3] - Quote Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: Delta 749 wrote: Because even with a huge hp pool, outstanding firepower, better mobility than infantry, and practical invulnerability to most weapons tankers still whined and moaned to get buffed and our stuff nerfed Thats why I dont like tank drivers at least You do not know history of SL if you speak such a BS(they were completely OP and disbalance). He's probably talking post 1.7
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 465	Posted - 2014.08.18 16:46:00 - [4] - Quote The only valid complaint I could see tanks having imo in this current build is Rail Turret Installations. This hp buff is pretty ridiculous. They needed a buff... but 4x the armor?
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 465	Posted - 2014.08.18 17:02:00 - [5] - Quote Atiim wrote: TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: The only valid complaint I could see tanks having imo in this current build is Rail Turret Installations. This hp buff is pretty ridiculous. They needed a buff... but 4x the armor? It;s only 2 Clips from a Large Missile Turret or 5-6 Volleys from a Swarm Launcher.. Not sure about Hybrid Weaponry, but Explosives are very effective counters against them. I'm talking specifically for tankers those large missle turrets reload very slowly and the rail installations that are on some maps are all over the place pretty much make tankers spend the first half of the match firing and retreating until they wear them down. I have no issue with installations as anything other than infantry but damn can installations throw a monkey wrench now in vehicle play. I think their armor buff was just too large personally. As an alternative, I wouldn't mind turrets staying the same but them removing the auto turret AI.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 465	Posted - 2014.08.18 18:48:00 - [6] - Quote Operative 1125 Lokaas wrote: TANKOPHOBIA and the ignorance to understand that a tank is not a problem nor is a tank with a turret that is anything other than a large blaster. The large blaster was the only problem. More specifically, militia tanks with large blasters are the problem due to ease of spam. Nip that and tanks are never a problem to infantry. The off handed rail or missile shot that kills one lil' ol' infantry every so few minutes during a match? Please. The only reason to destroy an enemy tank without a large blaster is to help a team member tanker out or for fun. But, the way TANKOPHOBES talk neither of those options are really the reason why they want to destroy a tank. If they hate tanks then why help a team mate tanker out? Why do it for fun when you hate tanks? No, it is because they have a disorder. A Tanker that only gets one infantry kill every couple of minutes with a rail turret or Missile turret is bad and is exactly why people hate on tankers. The fact that tankers can perform that poorly and get away with it is why people stereotype tankers as scrubs. If you think one kill every couple of minutes is good then that's the reason you think tanks shouldn't be vulnerable to infantry. Missle turrets especially, I don't have them unlocked yet but I stole a redberries missile madrugar once (Which is part of the reason missle turrets are on my to do list) and proceeded to go 22/0. It's not that hard to aim missiles they're slightly off target to the left and right of the reticle, same with rail turrets you have to aim a little above your target. Edit: I'll also add that this was a missile madrugar with all basic fittings except for one advanced heavy repper and this was during hotfix Bravo IE. post tank nerfs. Tankers are a serious threat that intelligent teams don't ignore. They are a good way to push the enemy off an objective during a stalemate even if they do get quickly destroyed. Just don't field 500k tanks unless you know you can keep it. A 70k tank is cheaper than the 80k ishokune assault fit I typically have to use to kill the 70k tank and that tank is far less vulnerable then my 80k ishokune assault heavy.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 465	Posted - 2014.08.18 18:58:00 - [7] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Operative 1125 Lokaas wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: People don't hate tanks, just the people who drive them. Their ***holes! You know this? Lol. Then so is every other person who would dare shoot someone's character in this game. HOW DARE THEY? What's good for the gooseGÇª Better I can prove it! With Just 2 little names. Spkr4thedead and Takihiro Kakushken (if that's how you spell them) Look up their posts see how they talk to everyone, see what they wanted tanks to become (for clarification, they wanted overpowered murderhouses on wheels) Taki wanted gunnlogis to passively repair through all damage. Spkr wanted armour to be able to reach installation levels of eHP and still have hardeners and reppers. They and numerous other tankers, wanted it to take 3-4 people running PROTO AV to take a STD HAV with STD mods. It's not difficult to see why people hate tankers, people like those 2 have given them a bad name. You rarely see a tank, covering his infantry, providing suppression or anything like that, it's always the same. Rush In, Kill Everybody, Rinse, Repeat. Their is no comradeship from tankers, I've seen more in blueberries for crying out loud. I've seen blueberries with mlt gear form honour guards for AVers, I've seen a Heavy and Logi whom have never meet turn into a 2-man meat grinder. I've had dropships kill a cloaked scout who was sneaking up on me. I've cleared entire rooves of enemy uplinks so my team can continue to hold there ground. But from tanks, you usually only ever see the same thing, if friendly fore was on, their would be more infantry deaths from being run over by a blue tank, than in combat. I've seen tankers purposefully steer into friendly LAV's just to blow them up, I've seen them roll over parked vehicles just to get a better shot. I've even seen them shoot at friendly dropships because the pilot got the kill. Their is nothing wrong with the current balance of tanks right now, they aren't invincible, but they aren't easy to kill, they can take just 1 man, but the tank has time to retreat. Their is nothing wrong with the tanks themselves, but the people that drive (most of them anyway) could do with an attitude change towards their fellow players. Which is sad because tanks can do a lot that nothing else can. A tank can cover an advancement making it near impossible to stop an approaching group of infantry. Imagine shotgun scouts, CR/AR rifles, heavy machine guns all hiding behind an advancing tank moving towards an objective covered by lasers/snipers/Rail rifles and scramblers. Even if the enemy team is able to stop the tank they now have a lot of infantry that has been able to close the gap into their optimum range to shred the longer range weapons.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 466	Posted - 2014.08.18 19:04:00 - [8] - Quote Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: duna made me hate all tankers Yeah during the 1.7-Alpha period I don't think I ever saw dunacorp members that weren't all loaded up into like 4 tanks convoying around.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 466	Posted - 2014.08.18 19:09:00 - [9] - Quote Lloyd Orfay wrote: People hate HAVs as others do assault dropships and others scouts because they don't provide much of a team oriented role and are just used for the sole task of killing infantry. Not everyone uses them for strategic or team-based reasons, which kind of makes matches go stale in certain circumstances. Even if we could fight against tanks no one wants to waste their time or risk dying in a match just to kill off a HAV or shoo away the rest. If these were used for more noble intentions (I do love seeing my tanks give birth to my entire team because of the mobile CRU) people wouldn't bother about it. I never understood why people don't like Mobile CRUs, I'll run one in a LAV circling the objective, HAV with plenty of terrain cover near the objective, or just have a dropship hovering above the objective. And, i'll get one spawn in every 3 minutes. Meanwhile they spawn on the nearby uplinks set out in the open to die over and over again or just spawn at a far off CRU/our spawn. I've always wanted to have a squad of paratroopers that wait to drop in on targets at the same time while I just circle to different objectives/pick them up as we go from skirmish objective to objective. i mean nothing but other dropships can touch you hovering in the stratosphere. You could just have a 6 man team of hell jumpers loading up and para dropping at the same time on objectives.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 466	Posted - 2014.08.18 19:14:00 - [10] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: I swear tanking is the most looked down upon out of all the other specializations so I'm just curious why do ground units hate us so much? Because tanks are inherently broken as a design in this game. In many ways, tankers have a complete disconnect with the trials and troubles other players experience, because the balance difference is just that huge. The way tanks are currently balanced, one player can pay a mediocre amount to be vastly superior to every other player on the field. This creates a huge imbalance in game design. Realistically, tanks would be a more feasible mechanic if they required three people to use them effectively. Solo tanking is a blight on the game. /personalopinionrant But there is also a lot to be said about how this ties in with map design. Most maps are designed in such a way that allows vehicles to basically stomp around and dominate 90% of the map. One success in countering this is the Research Facility socket, where players can avoid vehicles about 80% of the time, and the influence of vehicles is far more reasonable. I wont disagree that the way vehicles are handled is not correct, but you shouldn't assume that's the only factor at work. For example, as I've stated before Commandos are exceptionally useful because they can run AV and AP at the same time. I guarentee you that if Assaults had 2 light weapons, 90% of the the complaints about vehicles would go out the window, because people can still play against infantry, but also have the ability to deal with vehicles at the same time. Trust me, I run both Commando and HAV, and if I knew that 50+% of the infantry on the field had a swarm launcher or plasma cannon as their second weapon, I'd be far more terrified in rolling around like I own the place. Yeah but like with the case of the research facility tanks are pretty well useless, there isn't much use of them around there other than to get RE'd and av/PLC/Swarmed to death. Personally I think research facility is a socket that tanks should never enter and should stick to the outside objectives on skirmish or just not spawn tanks on domination. If more maps were like research facility than tanks would just be worse off. Imo, vehicle vs. av is in a good place right now and shouldn't be tampered with, but that's just me.

TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 466	Posted - 2014.08.18 19:17:00 - [11] - Quote Lloyd Orfay wrote: TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: Lloyd Orfay wrote: People hate HAVs as others do assault dropships and others scouts because they don't provide much of a team oriented role and are just used for the sole task of killing infantry. Not everyone uses them for strategic or team-based reasons, which kind of makes matches go stale in certain circumstances. Even if we could fight against tanks no one wants to waste their time or risk dying in a match just to kill off a HAV or shoo away the rest. If these were used for more noble intentions (I do love seeing my tanks give birth to my entire team because of the mobile CRU) people wouldn't bother about it. I never understood why people don't like Mobile CRUs, I'll run one in a LAV circling the objective, HAV with plenty of terrain cover near the objective, or just have a dropship hovering above the objective. And, i'll get one spawn in every 3 minutes. Meanwhile they spawn on the nearby uplinks set out in the open to die over and over again or just spawn at a far off CRU/our spawn. I've always wanted to have a squad of paratroopers that wait to drop in on targets at the same time while I just circle to different objectives/pick them up as we go from skirmish objective to objective. i mean nothing but other dropships can touch you hovering in the stratosphere. You could just have a 6 man team of hell jumpers loading up and para dropping at the same time on objectives. "C'mon, spawn in my dropship it's hovering right above the objective!" "lulnope" "Screw you I'm flying my air whale to some place that needs me" It's weird because players will spam on uplinks that require them to jump down and deploy inertia dampeners anyways, even when its a bad idea and they will just get lit up when they hit the ground. But a Mobile CRU? Nope, never happens.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 467	Posted - 2014.08.18 21:06:00 - [12] - Quote Coleman Gray wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Cenex Langly wrote: When you ask why people hate tanks, take into consideration the amount of overpowered advantage they provide. Then you can make a rational and logical assumption (or factual thought, your choice) as to the answer of your question. To be fair, infantry do have some advantages that a vehicle can't replicate, such as fitting into small spaces with cover or reaching an elevated position. Using these advantages is typically the best way to counter tanks, but most people run around on the ground which is the tank's natural territory, and complain when it doesn't work. It's kinda like running towards a sniper in an open field with a shotgun in your hand and complaining that you can't win. I don't think many complain about not being able to kill tanks anymore, the question is why do we hate them and those who drive them. My hatred came about in 1.7 when tanks were very hard to kill and very good at killing. Many tankers thought this was the state it should be and that one tanker character should have more power than 2 or 3 other characters. So we have an extremely OP fit and the failure to admit it and illogical arguments fueling my hatred. Tanks and Pythons are still given too many advantages to be balanced but I am fine with it and prefer that the xurrent balance is maintained. My sole complaint is that vehicle users get two fittings for one life, their vehicle and the pilot. It is the lowliest, scrubbiest tactic to jump out of your tank to kill someone and it is not fair nor should it be allowed. Risk= reward. Yes having a proper suit fit as well as say a tank is harsh, but how much isk is all piled into that one life? What if the driver jumps out and gets killed, what if while he is out the tank then is.destroyed? Now their.just a guy in the open waiting to get shot. My favorite is when you jump out of an LAV and it runs you over committing suicide, with a close second bailing out of a dropship only to have it crush you on the way down. This morning my LAV got stuck in one of those coke can things while I was trying to backpedal away from a rail tank and when I jumped out the game spawned me into the coke can and instant suicide.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 467	Posted - 2014.08.18 21:12:00 - [13] - Quote Coleman Gray wrote: Think the issue is, no team spawn wp reward. And they never used to be so good, they only allowed spawns to fill seats where as now you spawn around the vehicle. Yeah but that shouldn't stop players from spawning in my CRU as spawning never gives a player WP just the uplink gives WP to the one who dropped it. I see why people don't put mobile CRUs on because it doesn't award WP but I rarely worry about WP and all my standard dropships have CRUs as they are primarily a team transport vehicle. Even though it in no way impacts the other players, I still usually only get one guy spawning in every couple minutes and it is typically the same guy. I guess maybe its the fear of spawning in to instantly fall but if you are waiting to spawn in a dropship you should be ready to hit the inertia dampener anyways because for all you know it may be crashing. I guess that could be also a fear, but considering players enjoy laying explosives around CRUs and uplinks you aren't really at any less risk. The only relatively safe spawn is the red line spawns. It's been months since they changed the CRU rules (I want to say it was 1.7 when they let you respawn around a full vehicle.) Mobile CRUs are garbage in FW because they are likely to roadkill you when you spawn but I'll use them in pubbies and still no real use. It's like 90% of the population fears tactics like cavemen fear fire.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 471	Posted - 2014.08.19 12:35:00 - [14] - Quote Operative 1125 Lokaas wrote: TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: Operative 1125 Lokaas wrote: TANKOPHOBIA and the ignorance to understand that a tank is not a problem nor is a tank with a turret that is anything other than a large blaster. The large blaster was the only problem. More specifically, militia tanks with large blasters are the problem due to ease of spam. Nip that and tanks are never a problem to infantry. The off handed rail or missile shot that kills one lil' ol' infantry every so few minutes during a match? Please. The only reason to destroy an enemy tank without a large blaster is to help a team member tanker out or for fun. But, the way TANKOPHOBES talk neither of those options are really the reason why they want to destroy a tank. If they hate tanks then why help a team mate tanker out? Why do it for fun when you hate tanks? No, it is because they have a disorder. A Tanker that only gets one infantry kill every couple of minutes with a rail turret or Missile turret is bad and is exactly why people hate on tankers. The fact that tankers can perform that poorly and get away with it is why people stereotype tankers as scrubs. If you think one kill every couple of minutes is good then that's the reason you think tanks shouldn't be vulnerable to infantry. Missle turrets especially, I don't have them unlocked yet but I stole a redberries missile madrugar once (Which is part of the reason missle turrets are on my to do list) and proceeded to go 22/0. It's not that hard to aim missiles they're slightly off target to the left and right of the reticle, same with rail turrets you have to aim a little above your target. Edit: I'll also add that this was a missile madrugar with all basic fittings except for one advanced heavy repper and this was during hotfix Bravo IE. post tank nerfs. Tankers are a serious threat that intelligent teams don't ignore. They are a good way to push the enemy off an objective during a stalemate even if they do get quickly destroyed. Just don't field 500k tanks unless you know you can keep it. A 70k tank is cheaper than the 80k ishokune assault fit I typically have to use to kill the 70k tank and that tank is far less vulnerable then my 80k ishokune assault heavy. Point missed. Rail and missiles are not a threat to infantry because they are anti-tank, anti-vehicle and that is why those players are fielding them. They are performing a different service. If it isn't supposed to be about kd/r why does the arguement keep coming back to it? I didn't miss the point, they are a threat to infantry... at least when I use them. Can't say for you but if you have gun game the rail and missles are extremely devastating... I bet you think forge guns aren't a practical anti infantry weapon either? Some of my best games are of me beaming entire infantry advancements until they are forced to sneak up on me with a shotgun/nova knives. Rail Turrets are amazing tank snipers of infantry if you again are any good at aiming. The blaster tanks are anti infantry friendly because they require the least amount of aim, much like a hmg or shotguns. It's the same reason swarm launchers get so much flak but forge guns don't get as much... ease of use.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 471	Posted - 2014.08.19 12:40:00 - [15] - Quote True Adamance wrote: 843-Vika wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Cenex Langly wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: I swear tanking is the most looked down upon out of all the other specializations so I'm just curious why do ground units hate us so much? Cost is roughly the same as a proto suit, but there are only 3 weapons (plus 1 grenade) that can hurt it. It has over 4,000 HP (on a ****** setup). So, you have 4 times the average HP as a proto suit, cost the same as a proto suit and you do 10x's more damage than any weapon in the game. Most (Missiles and rails) can one shot you. And to top it off, your speed is 2-3 times faster than any of the fastest scout. Plus, people can jump out of their armored vehicles when someone is trying to get close to it and mow them down with an HMG if they so desired. When you ask why people hate tanks, take into consideration the amount of overpowered advantage they provide. Then you can make a rational and logical assumption (or factual thought, your choice) as to the answer of your question. There are suits that cost over 500,000 ISK? A tank can't run from a forge gun A tank can die by NK's PLC's FG's and swarms that is four not to mention the countless installations ^-^ Are you on crack? No tank costs 500k, the base model is 94k isk at most your looking at 200k tops A tank can out run any kind of av, its called using nitro, they cn out run everything with that. While it takes 3-4 people using v to kill you , it take 1 of you to kill everything it sees, and that is why everyone hates on tanks. 200 K ISK Hull 281 K ISK Turret 40K ISK Light Turrets 50-85- K ISK Modules 13 K ISK Suit to represent pilot suit. = 584K ISK at least. EDIT- Just made a new fit 200K ISK Hull 281K ISK Large Turret 211K ISK Light Turrets 85 K ISK Modules 13 K ISK suit = 790 470 ISK per Tank I know you skilled up for them but in this current build you shouldn't be using proto turrets if they cost 281k. That's essentially doubling the cost of your tank for a little more damage and accuracy on a blaster or more damage on a rail/missile. Just saying, with the game as it is, it's unwise to blow so much isk at once like that unless you don't mind losing the isk. It's the same advice I give shotgun scouts or forge snipers. The higher cost isn't worth the slightly higher efficiency, but I always try to balance between what is required to be effective and how much it costs to be that effective. True that proto turret gives you an advantage against other tankers 1 on 1, but you shouldn't be basing your fits around duel potential.