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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
6887
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Posted - 2014.08.03 15:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
While the recent buff to plasma Rifles was needed something still feels off about the Plasma Rifle, especially when comparing it against the other rifles and especially since you do not want to use that rifle in PC matches.
What's the problem with it though? I feel that it wrecks shields and is heavily slowed down when you get into armor, which is the way it should be. Problem is when you compare it to the other rifles they deal high enough damage to where it doesn't really matter which tank they are against since they wreck both shields and armor mercilessly (Scrambler Rifle, Rail Rifle, RR).
Plasma Rifle is literally the only the only rifle I know of that makes you consider how much armor they have to shields.
So what needs to happen? You cannot say that the Plasma Rifle isn't the least desirable frontline rifle in the game because it is. Yes, I do fairly well with it but the fact is I, we, can do so much better using any of the other rifles than the Plasma Rifle (which is why you do not see this rifle in PC much at all)
So, to bring the Plasma Rifle up to Par even though I feel that it's actually exactly where it needs to be...we have two options:
Option 1: Buff Plasma Rifle damage to where it doesn't matter if it's against shields or armor like all other rifles
Option 2: Tweak other rifles to where they completely wreck their intended tank but are slightly slowed down by the opposite tank. [i]The way it should be[/i]
Now begin the waves of people saying the Plasma Rifle is completely fine
see you space cowboy...
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Snake Sellors
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
242
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Posted - 2014.08.03 18:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
ok i'll bite.
i think it could do with a faster traveling shot, you shoot at the reds from distance and if they dont know about you all is well, but when you fire at somebody that knows you are there they just calmly step to one side.
that said i also agree that the weapons dont seem to really take into account the difference between shields and armour. |
Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1590
|
Posted - 2014.08.03 19:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
To really get into this I'd like to look at the damage profiles more just to make the differences clear to everyone.
Laser: +20% vs shields, -20% vs armor
Hybrid Blaster: +10% vs shields, -10% vs armor
Projectile: -5% vs shields, +10% vs armor
Hybrid Rail: -10% vs shields, +10% vs armor
Explosive: -20% vs shields, +20% vs armor
Just looking at these numbers one would think that the AR would behave like the RR but since the RR has a higher alpha damage it is able to take down shields just fine regardless of the damage profile. The AR on the other hand, with its smaller damage per shot will have a very hard time with armor.
Similarly to the RR the Scr, with its massive DPS, can easily kill armor tanked suits regardless of its -20% penalty vs armor.
The CR kills both armor and shields relatively well compared to the other rifles simply based on its damage profile. It has the smallest penalty and
Fun > Realism
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
12536
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Posted - 2014.08.03 21:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:While the recent buff to plasma Rifles was needed something still feels off about the Plasma Rifle, especially when comparing it against the other rifles and especially since you do not want to use that rifle in PC matches.
What's the problem with it though? I feel that it wrecks shields and is heavily slowed down when you get into armor, which is the way it should be. Problem is when you compare it to the other rifles they deal high enough damage to where it doesn't really matter which tank they are against since they wreck both shields and armor mercilessly (Scrambler Rifle, Rail Rifle, Combat Rifle).
Plasma Rifle is literally the only the only rifle I know of that makes you consider how much armor they have to shields.
So what needs to happen? You cannot say that the Plasma Rifle isn't the least desirable frontline rifle in the game because it is. Yes, I do fairly well with it but the fact is I, we, can do so much better using any of the other rifles than the Plasma Rifle (which is why you do not see this rifle in PC much at all)
So, to bring the Plasma Rifle up to Par even though I feel that it's actually exactly where it needs to be...we have two options:
Option 1: Buff Plasma Rifle damage to where it doesn't matter if it's against shields or armor like all other rifles
Option 2: Tweak other rifles to where they completely wreck their intended tank but are slightly slowed down by the opposite tank. The way it should be
Now begin the waves of people saying the Plasma Rifle is completely fine
I'll bite too.
You sure as **** do have to worry about armour with the ScR.
Especially when engaging stacked armour tankers. Yes we might have a good DPS, I'll be the fist to admit that, we still only have about 15 shots to pump out and are having to manage heat. If you ever get to that overheat seize moment you either need to have you enemy dead.....or you are dead.
"We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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Nocturnal Soul
Immortal Retribution
3782
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Posted - 2014.08.03 21:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Dude I run away from armor stacked heavies now because of the -20% to armor plus the fact that they usually have a hmg equipped.
The problem the PR has is the same problem the Ascr has, low dmg per a shot and that's it.
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
LASERS BTCH!!!!!!!
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
1831
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Posted - 2014.08.03 22:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
its in a good place, stop crying.
"Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
6891
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Posted - 2014.08.03 23:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:its in a good place, stop crying.
who let this pleb in my corp?
see you space cowboy...
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TOOMANY NAMES ALREADYTAKEn
Going for the gold
44
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Posted - 2014.08.03 23:30:00 -
[8] - Quote
Assault rifles have become OP with the ROF buff, I've been getting killed by Duvolles and GEKs WAY too often lately. Calculate the DPS of the assault variant of all the rifles and you'll see what i mean.
Shotgunner for life.
EDIT: Scratch that, I love my lasers.
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
6892
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Posted - 2014.08.03 23:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
TOOMANY NAMES ALREADYTAKEn wrote:Assault rifles have become OP with the ROF buff, I've been getting killed by Duvolles and GEKs WAY too often lately. Calculate the DPS of the assault variant of all the rifles and you'll see what i mean.
one question...have you calculated the DPS for plasma rifles between shield and armor and compare it to the other rifles?
see you space cowboy...
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
12543
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Posted - 2014.08.03 23:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:TOOMANY NAMES ALREADYTAKEn wrote:Assault rifles have become OP with the ROF buff, I've been getting killed by Duvolles and GEKs WAY too often lately. Calculate the DPS of the assault variant of all the rifles and you'll see what i mean. one question...have you calculated the DPS for plasma rifles between shield and armor and compare it to the other rifles?
Don't know if this guy knows AR DPS values are lower than most other assault variants.......
"We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
173
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Posted - 2014.08.03 23:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:Dude I run away from armor stacked heavies now because of the -20% to armor plus the fact that they usually have a hmg equipped.
The problem the PR has is the same problem the Ascr has, low dmg per a shot and that's it.
The pr....do I sense a me3 fan here?
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
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Jace Silencerwolf
Outcasts For Hire
6
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Posted - 2014.08.04 00:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
lol really? I have cut down gal heavies with my bpo ar at 50 meters yes it takes alittle longer than againsy some but any shield suit are a joke against it
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Meisterjager Jagermeister
Red and Silver Hand
Amarr Empire
321
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Posted - 2014.08.04 00:37:00 -
[13] - Quote
I'll kick this dead horse again...
I think the main problem with AR is the range. All the other rifles function well at cqc and highly effectively at range; a win win situation. The AR performs well close up but places the user at a major disadvantage when facing the other rifles at range. And due to dps fall off, at range the penalty to armor becomes even more noticeable.
I would like to see the optimal range extended from 40m to 60m and effective to from 70m to 90m.
AKA - StarVenger
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Apothecary Za'ki
Biomass Positive
228
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Posted - 2014.08.04 00:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:To really get into this I'd like to look at the damage profiles more just to make the differences clear to everyone.
Laser: +20% vs shields, -20% vs armor
Hybrid Blaster: +10% vs shields, -10% vs armor
Projectile: -5% vs shields, +10% vs armor
Hybrid Rail: -10% vs shields, +10% vs armor
Explosive: -20% vs shields, +20% vs armor
Just looking at these numbers one would think that the AR would behave like the RR but since the RR has a higher alpha damage it is able to take down shields just fine regardless of the damage profile. The AR on the other hand, with its smaller damage per shot will have a very hard time with armor.
Similarly to the RR the Scr, with its massive DPS, can easily kill armor tanked suits regardless of its -20% penalty vs armor.
The CR kills both armor and shields relatively well compared to the other rifles simply based on its damage profile. It has the smallest penalty and
i find Lazors regardless of those %s obliterate shields and MELT armor no problem Lazor rifle more so then the ScR it seems.
RR seems to be the FOTM atm as almost no one shield tanks, every one armor tanks, and RR is supremely accurate
as for CR it feels more like -20% on shield tbh.
and AR seems like 15% shield and +5 armor
as for explosive its bull that its -20% on shield i sware its like +10% shield
Logibro in training.
Weapon Damage Profiles Quick List
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Apothecary Za'ki
Biomass Positive
228
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Posted - 2014.08.04 00:47:00 -
[15] - Quote
Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote:I'll kick this dead horse again...
I think the main problem with AR is the range. All the other rifles function well at cqc and highly effectively at range; a win win situation. The AR performs well close up but places the user at a major disadvantage when facing the other rifles at range. And due to dps fall off, at range the penalty to armor becomes even more noticeable.
I would like to see the optimal range extended from 40m to 60m and effective to from 70m to 90m. AR used to be the FOTM till it was nerfed into a more closer/mid range rifle while RR is mid/long and sniper is Very long... because of all the people whoreing the Douval AR its damage over range was nuts back befor 1.7
Logibro in training.
Weapon Damage Profiles Quick List
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Cass Caul
302
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Posted - 2014.08.04 01:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
My main enemy is usually a Cal-Scout, therefore the AR is my first choice in Rifles.
If you can't keep up, shut up.
Math is easy, you're just stupid.
The Empress of Alts
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11483
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Posted - 2014.08.04 02:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
The AR is... weird.
If you look at the DPS of the Assault SCR, Assault CR or Assault RR, the AR should be beating them.
And yet all of those feel like superior rifles in my hands.
It can't be damage per bullet because Assault CR has less, it can't be DPS because the AR beats them all, it can't be clip size because RR has the least bullets.
Maybe it's a combination of multiple factors, but the AR feels off.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
11483
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Posted - 2014.08.04 02:12:00 -
[18] - Quote
I won't call for a buff until I figure out what's wrong, I'm just saying that my performance with the PR seems to be worse than the other rifles, despite me being a CQC assault fighter and having the most SP put into it.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
6894
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Posted - 2014.08.04 02:26:00 -
[19] - Quote
Yeah Cat I'm not sure what it is either but it's just poor compared to the others. Maybe the falloff range is too much.
Maybe it should have more Optimal Range but disappears at a certain point like the Ion Pistol. I'd sacrifice falloff range for more optimal for sure.
see you space cowboy...
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JUDASisMYhomeboy
xCosmic Voidx
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
59
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Posted - 2014.08.04 02:36:00 -
[20] - Quote
Its that damage profile. Armor based weapons are simply more effective. Ever put a level in RR? With basically no sp investment (militia works) that thing wrecks people. PRs problem is its dinky range. Its still better at killing heavies than scr though |
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
12554
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Posted - 2014.08.04 02:36:00 -
[21] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:I won't call for a buff until I figure out what's wrong, I'm just saying that my performance with the PR seems to be worse than the other rifles, despite me being a CQC assault fighter and having the most SP put into it.
IMO Sights don't help on the PR to be quite honest.......
"We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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JP Acuna
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
229
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Posted - 2014.08.04 03:38:00 -
[22] - Quote
The problem is it has the worst range of all rifles. AND, in its optimal range it's still outperformed by the assault combat rifle.
Lot of people say it's easy to use and it has no overheat, etc etc... Well, it's the same with the ACR, only that the latter does a lot more damage and kills a lot faster.
It's pretty much like it doesn't have a place or situation where it's the best choice. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
1129
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Posted - 2014.08.04 06:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
OP is right. The Gallente Assault Rifle is probably the best BALANCED gun in the game right now.
I got it with proficiencies, and it slices through shields, but boy does it take time to grind through armor. A pair of damage mods only slightly alleviates this.
The RR beats the AR at range. (The TAR would be better than the RR, if not for it's muzzle climb.)
The CR beats the AR in close quarters. (The Duvolle won't beat the Six Kin nor the Boundless.)
The AR has the advantage of being the smoothest, and most well-behaved of the 3... but other than that, it seems to just be a general purpose gun. Jack of all trades, master of none.
Combine that with it's damage profile, and you have a beautifully balanced weapon. Loved, but not used.
That's probably what has it at a disadvantage in PC.
Set your goals high, and shoot for the moon; even if you miss you'll land amongst the stars.
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Zindorak
1.U.P
244
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Posted - 2014.08.04 17:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
Cass Caul wrote:My main enemy is usually a Cal-Scout, therefore the AR is my first choice in Rifles.
Use a ScR. Kills those things in a few shots
Master of the Scrambler Pistol. Carthum Assault ScP <3
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Sum1ne Else
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
1300
|
Posted - 2014.08.04 22:25:00 -
[25] - Quote
I think it has something to do with kick or even dispersion, but I guess the dispersion is maxed using the Assault gk.0? I agree with the OP, there is something that is not quite right about it and you will end up just using the CR. I was using it today on my galmando and I think its the kick especially when comparing it to the aCR. What do you think?
Impressive? Longest PLC Kill - 151.8m
Logi mk.0 - Commando gk.0 - Scout gk.0 - Assault ak.0
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Bojo The Mighty
Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno
4853
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Posted - 2014.08.04 22:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
It's because shield has a low HP ceiling
It takes considerably more time for a plasma rifle to eat through most armor tankers than a rail rifle needs to eat through most shield tankers.
At the same time, the lowest range rifle is competing against longer range rifles with higher DPS (better damage profile on CR) or is just completely outranged by the rail rifle. I have no ***** against the rail rifle anymore though, but like I said, far easier to strip shields with a rail rifle than armor with an AR
I believe that rather than buff ARs, tune the CR, maybe the SCR because it's powerful and balanced by its heat, but Amarr Assault....
Just as long as the dice keep rollin, the hoes keep hoein, and the money keeps flowin!
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3242
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Posted - 2014.08.05 00:01:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ill tell you exactly what is off about the other rifles.
1) Combat Rifles
Projectile damage profile effectively give all Combat Rifles a 5% damage boost.
1a) Burst Combat Rifles
No conceivable delay between bursts allow experienced/modded controllers users to achieve 500DPS (+50) before profile damage. Futhermore also has 20m range more.
1b) Assault Combat Rifles
Don't have enough range for the DPS they sacrifice at 400 DPS (-50 ) before profile damge, has 6m extra range.
2) Scrambler Rifles
Easy to avoid overheat system gives Scrambler Rifles disproportionately large magazines for their allowing for absolute marathons of combat.
2a) Tactical Scrambler Rifle
Charge shot gives incredibly high opening shot that totals most shields in one hit, modded controllers can also achieve 720 DPS for a moderately lomg amount of time.
2b) Assault Scrambler Rifle
Has disproportionately high DPS for range (out DPS's combat rifle) and decent range +20m.
3) Rail Rifles
Have incredibly tight hipfire spread for a long range weapon making them too effective in close quarters.
3a) Breach Rail Rifle
Doesn't have enough recoil, while kick is just unfairly distracting (there is a difference between the 2)
3b) Assault Rail Rifle
Has the same range as the Breach, a huge advantage over anyother assault variant rifle.
It can be fixed, but CCP have said they are currently appeased with the rifles and there are more important thimgs to be doing first. Ideally the rifles need to have range and damage homogenised so that damage and range become less inportant factors when choosing your weapon.
I made a post on it if you can be bothered to search.
While rifles are currently and I quote "more balanced than ever" until these kind of charecterisitcs are homogenised at least one of the weapons will always feel out of place.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3242
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 00:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
JP Acuna wrote:The problem is it has the worst range of all rifles. AND, in its optimal range it's still outperformed by the assault combat rifle.
Lot of people say it's easy to use and it has no overheat, etc etc... Well, it's the same with the ACR, only that the latter does a lot more damage and kills a lot faster.
It's pretty much like it doesn't have a place or situation where it's the best choice.
The ACR has less damge even with the profile boosting it up, for a measly 6m extra range.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3242
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Posted - 2014.08.05 00:10:00 -
[29] - Quote
TOOMANY NAMES ALREADYTAKEn wrote:Assault rifles have become OP with the ROF buff, I've been getting killed by Duvolles and GEKs WAY too often lately. Calculate the DPS of the assault variant of all the rifles and you'll see what i mean.
Which until you put them next to the ranges mean nothing.
The Plasma Rifles suffer unfair ranges for menial da age increases.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
6926
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Posted - 2014.08.05 00:45:00 -
[30] - Quote
When CCP says something is balanced you can ignore that.
It's when the community says its balanced.
we all know CCP barely play their own game....or just suck
worse than FW bluedots
see you space cowboy...
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Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1600
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 01:45:00 -
[31] - Quote
TOOMANY NAMES ALREADYTAKEn wrote:Assault rifles have become OP with the ROF buff, I've been getting killed by Duvolles and GEKs WAY too often lately. Calculate the DPS of the assault variant of all the rifles and you'll see what i mean.
Perhaps you weren't involved in the rifle balancing that went on in Bravo but we convinced CCP that DPS and range should be an inverse relationship (look at this graph to see what I mean).
The AR with its very short range has the hardest time applying its damage thus it having a higher DPS than other assault variants. It is a pretty simple concept and is the main reason the AR is as balanced feeling as it is at this time.
Fun > Realism
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Boot Booter
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
826
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 02:00:00 -
[32] - Quote
I think its fine. Maybe you think it feels off because the majority of players are in armor...
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
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Kalante Schiffer
Ancient Exiles.
671
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Posted - 2014.08.05 03:22:00 -
[33] - Quote
The plasma rifle problem is its short range and low damage against armor. People say to me that it is meant to be a close range weapon but they do not realize that a CR can do that too and even better. The CR, RR, ASCR, are preferably used in PC because they are much better weapons and barely have any drawbacks. An RR destroys shields just as good when it comes to shooting armor, same goes for the CR. I am not too sure about the ASCR automatic since it feels almost like the plasma rifle they are good at destroying shields but really weak at shooting armor only difference is that the ASCR automatic has more range, but when it comes to using the Viziam it destroys shields and armor.
i am a noob hi hey hi hi kamishisoniareari shishimi ROYAL GUARD
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Jotun Izalaru
Goonfeet
214
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Posted - 2014.08.05 04:17:00 -
[34] - Quote
I think the Assault Rifle is the only one that feels balanced because it seems to have properly functioning hipfire spread or no bullet magnetism or something.
the CR has crazy good hipfire spread, way tighter than the sights suggest. Rail Rifle does too... to a lesser extent, but it's high damage compensates slightly. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
1130
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 08:53:00 -
[35] - Quote
Sum1ne Else wrote:I think it has something to do with kick or even dispersion, but I guess the dispersion is maxed using the Assault gk.0? I agree with the OP, there is something that is not quite right about it and you will end up just using the CR. I was using it today on my galmando and I think its the kick especially when comparing it to the aCR. What do you think?
Damage profile.
Maybe it's the damage profiles?
Could this be a big part of why we're so close to balance, but it just feels out of whack?
Check out the damage profiles. Do you see what I see?
The issue could be the ranges.
The damage profiles VS. their respective ranges?
Armor is arguably more important than shielding, as without it, you are instantly dead.
Do we really want the weapons with greater range, to be more effective against armor?
I would adjust the profiles like this maybe...
The higher your range, the higher your effectiveness against shields, the lower your effectiveness against armor, the lower your dps.
THEN
The lower your range, the lower your effectiveness against shields, the higher your effectiveness against armor, the higher your dps.
Hybrid - Railgun (Long Range): +20% shields, -20% armor
Laser (Medium-Long Range): +10% shields, -10% armor
Projectile (Short-Medium Range): -5% shields, +5% armor
Hybrid - Blaster (Short Range): -10% shields, +10% armor
Explosives to remain at -20% shields, +20% armor
I mean think about it. The RR and CR are preferred SO heavily, precisely because they do EXCELLENT damage vs. armor AT RANGE. This is what makes them preferable to the AR, even though the AR is supposed to be the close range predator.
These changes would make sense to me... but this HEAVILY violates established lore and race weapon conventions.
Set your goals high, and shoot for the moon; even if you miss you'll land amongst the stars.
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Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1603
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Posted - 2014.08.05 09:27:00 -
[36] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Sum1ne Else wrote:I think it has something to do with kick or even dispersion, but I guess the dispersion is maxed using the Assault gk.0? I agree with the OP, there is something that is not quite right about it and you will end up just using the CR. I was using it today on my galmando and I think its the kick especially when comparing it to the aCR. What do you think? Damage profile. Maybe it's the damage profiles? Could this be a big part of why we're so close to balance, but it just feels out of whack? Check out the damage profiles. Do you see what I see?The issue could be the ranges. The damage profiles VS. their respective ranges? Armor is arguably more important than shielding, as without it, you are instantly dead. Do we really want the weapons with greater range, to be more effective against armor? I would adjust the profiles like this maybe... The higher your range, the higher your effectiveness against shields, the lower your effectiveness against armor, the lower your dps. THEN The lower your range, the lower your effectiveness against shields, the higher your effectiveness against armor, the higher your dps. Hybrid - Railgun (Long Range): +20% shields, -20% armor Laser (Medium-Long Range): +10% shields, -10% armor Projectile (Short-Medium Range): -5% shields, +5% armor Hybrid - Blaster (Short Range): -10% shields, +10% armor Explosives to remain at -20% shields, +20% armor I mean think about it. The RR and CR are preferred SO heavily, precisely because they do EXCELLENT damage vs. armor AT RANGE. This is what makes them preferable to the AR, even though the AR is supposed to be the close range predator. These changes would make sense to me... but this HEAVILY violates established EVE lore and racial weapon conventions.
Unfortunately/fortunately depending on how you look at it, damage profiles are linked to EvE and thus unlikely to change so dramatically.
Fun > Realism
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
Dark Taboo
498
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Posted - 2014.08.05 11:47:00 -
[37] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:To really get into this I'd like to look at the damage profiles more just to make the differences clear to everyone.
Laser: +20% vs shields, -20% vs armor
Hybrid Blaster: +10% vs shields, -10% vs armor
Projectile: -5% vs shields, +10% vs armor
Hybrid Rail: -10% vs shields, +10% vs armor
Explosive: -20% vs shields, +20% vs armor
Just looking at these numbers one would think that the AR would behave like the RR but since the RR has a higher alpha damage it is able to take down shields just fine regardless of the damage profile. The AR on the other hand, with its smaller damage per shot will have a very hard time with armor.
Similarly to the RR the Scr, with its massive DPS, can easily kill armor tanked suits regardless of its -20% penalty vs armor.
The CR kills both armor and shields relatively well compared to the other rifles simply based on its damage profile. It has the smallest penalty after all.
also because shields have such low hp compared to armor, having a weapon with a weakness to shields isnt a factor since shields can be wiped out so quickly
also, the AR is a straight up DPS rifle. theres nothing to it but to hose down your target. DPS actually only matters when facing targets with high regen capabilities. since most HP is so low, DPS isnt a factor as any weapon can kill with simple higher alpha or burst damage. There arent any enemies with hp pools large enough to make DPS a factor in combat
youd need to buff AR damage per shot to breach AR levels to get it to perform
keep in mind that in Eve. we have multiple damage rofiles and resistances to weapon types as well as active and passive defensive measures.
we dont have that in dust. closest thing to it is when youre getting logi reps. thats when DPS matters |
Meisterjager Jagermeister
Red and Silver Hand
Amarr Empire
323
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Posted - 2014.08.05 16:35:00 -
[38] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:The AR with its very short range has the hardest time applying its damage thus it having a higher DPS than other assault variants. It is a pretty simple concept and is the main reason the AR is as balanced feeling as it is at this time. Yeah, relative to itself it is balanced. But AR does not live in a vacuum.
When placed in context with and compared to other rifles its shortcomings become apparent. (see what I did there?)
AKA - StarVenger
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Sum1ne Else
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
1301
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Posted - 2014.08.05 22:40:00 -
[39] - Quote
Sgt Kirk > I'm officially a scrub, the Six Kin/PLC is best on Galmando.  ...tried it today and it works great. Hi Alpha damage and accuracy combined with the complex damage Mod and reload bonus compliments this suit..were lucky this weapon is from the Min race and not the Caldari!!!
I'm really not too sure if the plasma AR even out DPS' the aCR with Commando bonus??
Longest PLC Kill - 193.71m
Logi mk.0 - Com gk.0 - Scout gk.0 - Ass ak.0
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
12608
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Posted - 2014.08.05 23:02:00 -
[40] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Sum1ne Else wrote:I think it has something to do with kick or even dispersion, but I guess the dispersion is maxed using the Assault gk.0? I agree with the OP, there is something that is not quite right about it and you will end up just using the CR. I was using it today on my galmando and I think its the kick especially when comparing it to the aCR. What do you think? Damage profile. Maybe it's the damage profiles? Could this be a big part of why we're so close to balance, but it just feels out of whack? Check out the damage profiles. Do you see what I see?The issue could be the ranges. The damage profiles VS. their respective ranges? Armor is arguably more important than shielding, as without it, you are instantly dead. Do we really want the weapons with greater range, to be more effective against armor? I would adjust the profiles like this maybe... The higher your range, the higher your effectiveness against shields, the lower your effectiveness against armor, the lower your dps. THEN The lower your range, the lower your effectiveness against shields, the higher your effectiveness against armor, the higher your dps. Hybrid - Railgun (Long Range): +20% shields, -20% armor Laser (Medium-Long Range): +10% shields, -10% armor Projectile (Short-Medium Range): -5% shields, +5% armor Hybrid - Blaster (Short Range): -10% shields, +10% armor Explosives to remain at -20% shields, +20% armor I mean think about it. The RR and CR are preferred SO heavily, precisely because they do EXCELLENT damage vs. armor AT RANGE. This is what makes them preferable to the AR, even though the AR is supposed to be the close range predator. These changes would make sense to me... but this HEAVILY violates established EVE lore and racial weapon conventions.
Yeah.... but in EVE the damage types are also modified by each ships own base resistances, again modified by their racial opposition.
Lasers do Primary EM damage and secondary Thermal Damage....
Most Minmatar ships have moderate EM and Thermal Resistances, in fact Min T2 Frigates.... the Wolf and Jaguar have 90% EM resistances against their shields...... just like the Retribution T2 Amarr Frigate as an 87.5 Resistance to Explosive Weapons on Armour......
"We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
50
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Posted - 2014.08.05 23:49:00 -
[41] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Jathniel wrote:Sum1ne Else wrote:I think it has something to do with kick or even dispersion, but I guess the dispersion is maxed using the Assault gk.0? I agree with the OP, there is something that is not quite right about it and you will end up just using the CR. I was using it today on my galmando and I think its the kick especially when comparing it to the aCR. What do you think? Damage profile. Maybe it's the damage profiles? Could this be a big part of why we're so close to balance, but it just feels out of whack? Check out the damage profiles. Do you see what I see?The issue could be the ranges. The damage profiles VS. their respective ranges? Armor is arguably more important than shielding, as without it, you are instantly dead. Do we really want the weapons with greater range, to be more effective against armor? I would adjust the profiles like this maybe... The higher your range, the higher your effectiveness against shields, the lower your effectiveness against armor, the lower your dps. THEN The lower your range, the lower your effectiveness against shields, the higher your effectiveness against armor, the higher your dps. Hybrid - Railgun (Long Range): +20% shields, -20% armor Laser (Medium-Long Range): +10% shields, -10% armor Projectile (Short-Medium Range): -5% shields, +5% armor Hybrid - Blaster (Short Range): -10% shields, +10% armor Explosives to remain at -20% shields, +20% armor I mean think about it. The RR and CR are preferred SO heavily, precisely because they do EXCELLENT damage vs. armor AT RANGE. This is what makes them preferable to the AR, even though the AR is supposed to be the close range predator. These changes would make sense to me... but this HEAVILY violates established EVE lore and racial weapon conventions. Yeah.... but in EVE the damage types are also modified by each ships own base resistances, again modified by their racial opposition. Lasers do Primary EM damage and secondary Thermal Damage.... Most Minmatar ships have moderate EM and Thermal Resistances, in fact Min T2 Frigates.... the Wolf and Jaguar have 90% EM resistances against their shields...... just like the Retribution T2 Amarr Frigate as an 87.5 Resistance to Explosive Weapons on Armour......
First off Janthiel, Railguns and Blasters are both Hybrid weapons, they both fire the same ammunition (at least space-side and lore-wise, it isn't demonstrated well DUST side). I do agree that Railguns and Projectiles are picked more often because they do more damage to armor, but that has more to do with the imbalance between armor and shields.
In EVE Railguns and Blasters share the same ammo, and therefore the same base damage type (Thermal and Kinetic)...now enemy resistances do come into play, but ship hull bonuses also do. Gallente and Caldari ship bonuses (to turrets) always effect both Railgun and Blaster turrets, in fact you're more likely to see Gallente pilots using railguns than you are to see Caldari pilots (who generally prefer missiles for most tasks). |
Meisterjager Jagermeister
Red and Silver Hand
Amarr Empire
324
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Posted - 2014.08.06 04:38:00 -
[42] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:I made a post on it if you can be bothered to search.
Yes, I saw that thread. Brilliant!
Your graph on properly balanced rifles is exactly what I have thought it should be.
AKA - StarVenger
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Jathniel
G I A N T
1131
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Posted - 2014.08.06 06:03:00 -
[43] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Jathniel wrote:Sum1ne Else wrote:I think it has something to do with kick or even dispersion, but I guess the dispersion is maxed using the Assault gk.0? I agree with the OP, there is something that is not quite right about it and you will end up just using the CR. I was using it today on my galmando and I think its the kick especially when comparing it to the aCR. What do you think? Damage profile. Maybe it's the damage profiles? Could this be a big part of why we're so close to balance, but it just feels out of whack? Check out the damage profiles. Do you see what I see?The issue could be the ranges. The damage profiles VS. their respective ranges? Armor is arguably more important than shielding, as without it, you are instantly dead. Do we really want the weapons with greater range, to be more effective against armor? I would adjust the profiles like this maybe... The higher your range, the higher your effectiveness against shields, the lower your effectiveness against armor, the lower your dps. THEN The lower your range, the lower your effectiveness against shields, the higher your effectiveness against armor, the higher your dps. Hybrid - Railgun (Long Range): +20% shields, -20% armor Laser (Medium-Long Range): +10% shields, -10% armor Projectile (Short-Medium Range): -5% shields, +5% armor Hybrid - Blaster (Short Range): -10% shields, +10% armor Explosives to remain at -20% shields, +20% armor I mean think about it. The RR and CR are preferred SO heavily, precisely because they do EXCELLENT damage vs. armor AT RANGE. This is what makes them preferable to the AR, even though the AR is supposed to be the close range predator. These changes would make sense to me... but this HEAVILY violates established EVE lore and racial weapon conventions. Yeah.... but in EVE the damage types are also modified by each ships own base resistances, again modified by their racial opposition. Lasers do Primary EM damage and secondary Thermal Damage.... Most Minmatar ships have moderate EM and Thermal Resistances, in fact Min T2 Frigates.... the Wolf and Jaguar have 90% EM resistances against their shields...... just like the Retribution T2 Amarr Frigate as an 87.5 Resistance to Explosive Weapons on Armour......
I see.
So basically, part of the reason why the AR feels perfect, but is obviously out of place, is because Dusters don't have the modules and equipment to establish proper resistances vs. any specific weapon type?
That makes a lot of sense.
That also settles a LOT of balancing disputes. If a player could set up a 90% resistance to railgun ammo, that would render him mostly immune to RR, in which case, the AR would shine because he's not setup to resist.
That would add a WONDERFUL level of customization to the game that I would give infinite blessings to.
Why the hell don't we have such resistances on our dropsuits? Or at least modules (for HIGH and LOW slots) that can provide such resistances?
Set your goals high, and shoot for the moon; even if you miss you'll land amongst the stars.
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3243
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Posted - 2014.08.06 09:59:00 -
[44] - Quote
Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:I made a post on it if you can be bothered to search. Yes, I saw that thread. Brilliant! Your graph on properly balanced rifles is exactly what I have thought it should be.
Thank you!
Doing it that ways solves a lot of problems including Jathniels problem with the damage profile.
Since the relation between damage and range is linear the damage profile will no lomger effect that balance in the same way.
Futhermore it already included scope for the 6 or so remaining weapons.
Burst Scrambler Rifle
Burst Rail Rifle
Tactical Combat Rifle
Tactical Rail Rifle
Breach Scrambler Rifle
Breach Scrambler Rifle
Which I'm sure everyone would love to see.
Finally it allows the characteristics of each weapon to be emphasised more clearly without effecting balance.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Jathniel
G I A N T
1132
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Posted - 2014.08.06 22:06:00 -
[45] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:I made a post on it if you can be bothered to search. Yes, I saw that thread. Brilliant! Your graph on properly balanced rifles is exactly what I have thought it should be. Thank you! Doing it that ways solves a lot of problems including Jathniels problem with the damage profile. Since the relation between damage and range is linear the damage profile will no lomger effect that balance in the same way. Futhermore it already included scope for the 6 or so remaining weapons. Burst Scrambler Rifle Burst Rail Rifle Tactical Combat Rifle Tactical Rail Rifle Breach Scrambler Rifle Breach Scrambler Rifle Which I'm sure everyone would love to see. Finally it allows the characteristics of each weapon to be emphasised more clearly without effecting balance.
I can't find your thread.
What's it called?
Set your goals high, and shoot for the moon; even if you miss you'll land amongst the stars.
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OP FOTM
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
299
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Posted - 2014.08.07 06:14:00 -
[46] - Quote
Quote:it's completely fine
Against scouts. It's a scout murderer now.
Caldari are afraid of my AR.
Dust servers will be a ghost town on 09/09/14
Destiny kicks ass... Like Halo knocked up Mass Effect and gave birth
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