DUST Search - Why doesn't anyone think logistics needs a buff?

Pokey Dravon wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

Logi's should get their buff but it should not be to survivability or fitting power. Logi need a role bonus change so that every Logi can use the repair tool or shield transporter with increased efficiency and range.

A logi does not need massive amounts of EHP to fulfil its role, I've been one and its overkill. However it does need a reinforcement of its role to ensure players are incentivised to carry out the role role.

Role Bonus: 3-5% increase to Armour and Shield repair rates per level
3-5% increase to Repair Tool Range per level

Racial Suit Bonus:

Amarr- Uplinks Bonus as currently held
Caldari- Increased Nanite Clusters (Need Nanohive that restores shields)
Gallente- Active Scanners Bonus
Minmatar- ?*

* Minmatar is a tough one sinces its bonus originally lent to the Repair tool, a piece of equipment I do not believe should be solely monopolised by one racial group since it applies to all racial groups and their logistical needs. That however leaves the Min Logi in a bind. I would be happy to take suggestions for skills and or suggestions for future equipment items?

Perhaps Min Logi could use Target Painters which would lock and high light individual players or vehicles to the team or increase damage done to the target.

Very Similar to something I suggested yesterday, though I think the thread has since been buried haha.

Regardless in that proposal I have Minmatar logi a bonus to carry capacity as well as damage of remote explosives and proximity mines, making them more of a Indirect Point-Defense suit, capable of laying minefields against vehicles or locking down choke points with explosives.

"Your Faith stands as a shield for the Faithful, and you are one of His Angels." - Soren Tyrhannos to Templar Ouryon

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Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 959	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:16:00 - [1] - Quote Seeking honest answers only. logistics takes 2x the sp of assaults and can easily cost 250k isk per fitting. Logistics suffers penalties to it's speed as if it had higher eHP. Logistics suffers penalties to it's eHP as if it had high regen and speed. Yet neither of these facts are true. Why shouldn't logistics get a buff in one of these two areas? I personally believe,that with all the buffs assaults are getting it would be nice if logistics got speed and regen,seeing as they would still have a large hitbox it wouldn't be OP like it is currently with scouts. Keep in mind:in charlie assaults will be getting logistics slot layout (+1 at ADV completely out classing logistics,and +1 at Pro being equal). and an additional 150 eHP,with 0 sacrifice. So any buffs would still make them lesser in every other way.It will literally be impossible to be equal. Please note: any answer with the word(s) slayer,slay,frontline or any answer with tl;dr of 'because they have to' will be ignored,or responded to with 'you're trolling'. Or any responses to anything but my questions or those posed by others will be considered trolling. Or anything about 'knowing your place' or ridiculing logistics role will be considered trolling.
Boot Booter Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dark Taboo 780	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:31:00 - [2] - Quote No. You already have a thread identical to this. No one agrees with you. You sacrifice these things for equipment. Slayer Slay Frontline Know your place Tl;dr Because. What happened to the repair tool glow? Why won't CCP answer? Conspiracy?
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2485	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:37:00 - [3] - Quote sigh We've been over this before you went totally manic. I agree Logis need a buff, but you want them to be exactly the same in terms of defensive capabilities as Assaults, and that's where we disagree. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 960	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:41:00 - [4] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: sigh We've been over this before you went totally manic. I agree Logis need a buff, but you want them to be exactly the same in terms of defensive capabilities as Assaults, and that's where we disagree. Considering a Pro logistics with equipment can be nearly 2-3 x the investment sp and isk wise as an assault why shouldn't logistics get defense?
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 960	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:42:00 - [5] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: No. You already have a thread identical to this. No one agrees with you. You sacrifice these things for equipment. Slayer Slay Frontline Know your place Tl;dr Because. You're trolling.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1662	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:44:00 - [6] - Quote They really are in a good place for logi work, IMHO. What id like to see tho is feedback for reaping, like every triage point you get, you get a small armor regen amount. That'd be pretty cool IMHO. "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. Kills-Archduke Ferd1nand
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 960	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:46:00 - [7] - Quote I'm hearing 0 good reasons only 'lol bekuz' reasons.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2485	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:48:00 - [8] - Quote Meee One wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: sigh We've been over this before you went totally manic. I agree Logis need a buff, but you want them to be exactly the same in terms of defensive capabilities as Assaults, and that's where we disagree. Considering a Pro logistics with equipment can be nearly 2-3 x the investment sp and isk wise as an assault why shouldn't logistics get defense? First of all you cant balance against SP cost, that just rewards people who have been playing longer solely because of SP investment. Now you CAN balance SP cost of skills to help compensate, making equipment easier to skill into, but giving someone a better dropsuit because their equipment is hard to train? No. Then they'll just not train the equipment and take advantage of the better suit. As for ISK cost, the price of equipment could probably use a drop to help compensate. Also the fact that Logistics need to equip so many modules to reach reasonable defensive capabilities adds to the increased ISK Cost. In my other proposal which you threw a tantrum about, lowered the slot count on the Logis to make it cheaper to run, but raised the base stats to compensate for the loss of module slots. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 960	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:48:00 - [9] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: They really are in a good place for logi work, IMHO. What id like to see tho is feedback for reaping, like every triage point you get, you get a small armor regen amount. That'd be pretty cool IMHO. That would be nice seeing as you're defensless. But in this atmosphere of logistics has to be weak because it has to be weak,you'll get 0 support for it from anyone but me.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12178	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:53:00 - [10] - Quote Logi's should get their buff but it should not be to survivability or fitting power. Logi need a role bonus change so that every Logi can use the repair tool or shield transporter with increased efficiency and range. A logi does not need massive amounts of EHP to fulfil its role, I've been one and its overkill. However it does need a reinforcement of its role to ensure players are incentivised to carry out the role role. Role Bonus: 3-5% increase to Armour and Shield repair rates per level 3-5% increase to Repair Tool Range per level Racial Suit Bonus: Amarr- Uplinks Bonus as currently held Caldari- Increased Nanite Clusters (Need Nanohive that restores shields) Gallente- Active Scanners Bonus Minmatar- ?* * Minmatar is a tough one sinces its bonus originally lent to the Repair tool, a piece of equipment I do not believe should be solely monopolised by one racial group since it applies to all racial groups and their logistical needs. That however leaves the Min Logi in a bind. I would be happy to take suggestions for skills and or suggestions for future equipment items? Perhaps Min Logi could use Target Painters which would lock and high light individual players or vehicles to the team or increase damage done to the target. "Your Faith stands as a shield for the Faithful, and you are one of His Angels." - Soren Tyrhannos to Templar Ouryon

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2486	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:55:00 - [11] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Logi's should get their buff but it should not be to survivability or fitting power. Logi need a role bonus change so that every Logi can use the repair tool or shield transporter with increased efficiency and range. A logi does not need massive amounts of EHP to fulfil its role, I've been one and its overkill. However it does need a reinforcement of its role to ensure players are incentivised to carry out the role role. Role Bonus: 3-5% increase to Armour and Shield repair rates per level 3-5% increase to Repair Tool Range per level Racial Suit Bonus: Amarr- Uplinks Bonus as currently held Caldari- Increased Nanite Clusters (Need Nanohive that restores shields) Gallente- Active Scanners Bonus Minmatar- ?* * Minmatar is a tough one sinces its bonus originally lent to the Repair tool, a piece of equipment I do not believe should be solely monopolised by one racial group since it applies to all racial groups and their logistical needs. That however leaves the Min Logi in a bind. I would be happy to take suggestions for skills and or suggestions for future equipment items? Perhaps Min Logi could use Target Painters which would lock and high light individual players or vehicles to the team or increase damage done to the target. Very Similar to something I suggested yesterday, though I think the thread has since been buried haha. Regardless in that proposal I have Minmatar logi a bonus to carry capacity as well as damage of remote explosives and proximity mines, making them more of a Indirect Point-Defense suit, capable of laying minefields against vehicles or locking down choke points with explosives. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12178	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:57:00 - [12] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: True Adamance wrote: Logi's should get their buff but it should not be to survivability or fitting power. Logi need a role bonus change so that every Logi can use the repair tool or shield transporter with increased efficiency and range. A logi does not need massive amounts of EHP to fulfil its role, I've been one and its overkill. However it does need a reinforcement of its role to ensure players are incentivised to carry out the role role. Role Bonus: 3-5% increase to Armour and Shield repair rates per level 3-5% increase to Repair Tool Range per level Racial Suit Bonus: Amarr- Uplinks Bonus as currently held Caldari- Increased Nanite Clusters (Need Nanohive that restores shields) Gallente- Active Scanners Bonus Minmatar- ?* * Minmatar is a tough one sinces its bonus originally lent to the Repair tool, a piece of equipment I do not believe should be solely monopolised by one racial group since it applies to all racial groups and their logistical needs. That however leaves the Min Logi in a bind. I would be happy to take suggestions for skills and or suggestions for future equipment items? Perhaps Min Logi could use Target Painters which would lock and high light individual players or vehicles to the team or increase damage done to the target. Very Similar to something I suggested yesterday, though I think the thread has since been buried haha. Regardless in that proposal I have Minmatar logi a bonus to carry capacity as well as damage of remote explosives and proximity mines, making them more of a Indirect Point-Defense suit, capable of laying minefields against vehicles or locking down choke points with explosives. Entirely legitimate suggestions..... Min Logi = Repping Mad Bomber? I suppose the Target Painter was a bit far fetched and falls into EWAR/ Scout not Logi.... "Your Faith stands as a shield for the Faithful, and you are one of His Angels." - Soren Tyrhannos to Templar Ouryon
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 960	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:57:00 - [13] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Meee One wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: sigh We've been over this before you went totally manic. I agree Logis need a buff, but you want them to be exactly the same in terms of defensive capabilities as Assaults, and that's where we disagree. Considering a Pro logistics with equipment can be nearly 2-3 x the investment sp and isk wise as an assault why shouldn't logistics get defense? First of all you cant balance against SP cost, that just rewards people who have been playing longer solely because of SP investment. Now you CAN balance SP cost of skills to help compensate, making equipment easier to skill into, but giving someone a better dropsuit because their equipment is hard to train? No. Then they'll just not train the equipment and take advantage of the better suit. As for ISK cost, the price of equipment could probably use a drop to help compensate. Also the fact that Logistics need to equip so many modules to reach reasonable defensive capabilities adds to the increased ISK Cost. In my other proposal which you threw a tantrum about, lowered the slot count on the Logis to make it cheaper to run, but raised the base stats to compensate for the loss of module slots. Lol 'tantrum'. I saw BS so i called it. logistics aren't basics they shouldn't have to sacrifice a module in order to get a buff,logistics should be the opposite of assaults. If assaults get eHP,logistics should get speed and regen. Assaults would still have. -eHP -everything else better than basics -to sacrifice nothing logistics would have -speed and regen to make up for their eHP being SO DAMNED CLOSE to scouts -lower eHP - 1 weapon -bigger hitbox -better e-war This would centralize a theme,support gets speed and regen (logistics and scouts),killers get eHP (everyone else).
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12178	Posted - 2014.07.24 21:00:00 - [14] - Quote Not really the opposite...... more like roughly similar with a different focus...... "Your Faith stands as a shield for the Faithful, and you are one of His Angels." - Soren Tyrhannos to Templar Ouryon
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 960	Posted - 2014.07.24 21:02:00 - [15] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Logi's should get their buff but it should not be to survivability or fitting power. Logi need a role bonus change so that every Logi can use the repair tool or shield transporter with increased efficiency and range. A logi does not need massive amounts of EHP to fulfil its role, I've been one and its overkill. However it does need a reinforcement of its role to ensure players are incentivised to carry out the role role. Role Bonus: 3-5% increase to Armour and Shield repair rates per level 3-5% increase to Repair Tool Range per level Racial Suit Bonus: Amarr- Uplinks Bonus as currently held Caldari- Increased Nanite Clusters (Need Nanohive that restores shields) Gallente- Active Scanners Bonus Minmatar- ?* * Minmatar is a tough one sinces its bonus originally lent to the Repair tool, a piece of equipment I do not believe should be solely monopolised by one racial group since it applies to all racial groups and their logistical needs. That however leaves the Min Logi in a bind. I would be happy to take suggestions for skills and or suggestions for future equipment items? Perhaps Min Logi could use Target Painters which would lock and high light individual players or vehicles to the team or increase damage done to the target. Wow,'just make logis easy to kill screw the 2-3 x the investment'. No,as i have said many times before...everyone would use amarr,sidearm reps and uplinks. It would become the logi god.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 960	Posted - 2014.07.24 21:08:00 - [16] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Not really the opposite...... more like roughly similar with a different focus...... No not the same,logistics shouldn't be killing things. logistics should be able to survive easier though. Maybe a damage reduction of x%,but at a cost. x% damage ouput reduction. It gets more durable,but it can't do as much damage. This with a speed and regen buff would make logistics more defensive.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2486	Posted - 2014.07.24 21:10:00 - [17] - Quote Meee One wrote: Assaults would still have. -eHP -everything else better than basics -to sacrifice nothing logistics would have -speed and regen to make up for their eHP being SO DAMNED CLOSE to scouts -lower eHP - 1 weapon -bigger hitbox -better e-war This would centralize a theme,support gets speed and regen (logistics and scouts),killers get eHP (everyone else). Except what I suggested would increase Logi Speed, HP, and Regen but alright... But since you're so keen on taking a dump on everyone that doesn't completely agree with you 100%, how about you lay out exactly what you would do if you were in charge. Bonuses, HP values, the works. I'm curious to see what you come up with. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Boot Booter Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dark Taboo 780	Posted - 2014.07.24 21:10:00 - [18] - Quote Meee One wrote: I'm hearing 0 good reasons only 'lol bekuz' reasons. People have provided you with countless reasons in your other identical thread, you just refuse to listen. Buffing logi speed, hp, or regen will only cause them to be used as assault frames with more equipment. If you'll answer some questions sir. What do you think logis intended role is? What set of dust items best suits logis in this intended role? Do you believe logis are currently balanced? If no, why do PC teams field 3 to 4 logis? If yes, why does buffing a different role make logis less valuable then they currently are? What happened to the repair tool glow? Why won't CCP answer? Conspiracy?
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2486	Posted - 2014.07.24 21:12:00 - [19] - Quote Meee One wrote: True Adamance wrote: Not really the opposite...... more like roughly similar with a different focus...... No not the same,logistics shouldn't be killing things. logistics should be able to survive easier though. Maybe a damage reduction of x%,but at a cost. x% damage ouput reduction. It gets more durable,but it can't do as much damage. This with a speed and regen buff would make logistics more defensive. You do realized that if you have 10% more survivability than the guy doing 10% more damage than you, you die at the same time right? So how does that exactly like Assaults better than a Logi in a 1 on 1 fight? Logistics can do 100 DPS and has 110HP Assault can do 110 DPS and have 100HP They both die in 1 second if they're shooting each other at the same time. So how exactly does that make an Assault better at killing if the Logi can kill him just as fast as he kills the Logi? Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12183	Posted - 2014.07.24 21:47:00 - [20] - Quote Meee One wrote: True Adamance wrote: Logi's should get their buff but it should not be to survivability or fitting power. Logi need a role bonus change so that every Logi can use the repair tool or shield transporter with increased efficiency and range. A logi does not need massive amounts of EHP to fulfil its role, I've been one and its overkill. However it does need a reinforcement of its role to ensure players are incentivised to carry out the role role. Role Bonus: 3-5% increase to Armour and Shield repair rates per level 3-5% increase to Repair Tool Range per level Racial Suit Bonus: Amarr- Uplinks Bonus as currently held Caldari- Increased Nanite Clusters (Need Nanohive that restores shields) Gallente- Active Scanners Bonus Minmatar- ?* * Minmatar is a tough one sinces its bonus originally lent to the Repair tool, a piece of equipment I do not believe should be solely monopolised by one racial group since it applies to all racial groups and their logistical needs. That however leaves the Min Logi in a bind. I would be happy to take suggestions for skills and or suggestions for future equipment items? Perhaps Min Logi could use Target Painters which would lock and high light individual players or vehicles to the team or increase damage done to the target. Wow,'just make logis easy to kill screw the 2-3 x the investment'. No,as i have said many times before...everyone would use amarr,sidearm reps and uplinks. It would become the logi god. A logistics role is primarily support and non combative, having been a Logi for several builds I found that I did not need to stack HP to fulfil my role and could better support my team by focusing on other aspects such as using my module slot to fit a basic tank and couple with with scanning or biotics modules. Now I would avoid giving any Logi a side arm as they don't need them, especially not the Amarr since I hate this ideal they are the "combat" race. As for the 2-3x SP investment I wholly understand where you get that notion but I don't see why that should translate to combat efficiency and survivability. I certainly would like to avoid having one Logi become king of the hill and actively encourage players to use what they like and not what is fotm however EVE as much as Dust there are always going to be set competitive doctrines from the Characal Fleets in Huola to t3 gangs in Null Sec. Competitive players will always pick a strong option however that does not mean Logistics as a role should continue on the path they are now not full filling the logistics role. That being primarily to provide repairs and support to friendly units, as such I suggested removing the monopolisation the Minmatar have on Rep tools, being a universally used item in favour of giving the Minmatar something they can use in addition to their Rep tool bonus. "Your Faith stands as a shield for the Faithful, and you are one of His Angels." - Soren Tyrhannos to Templar Ouryon

Cheydinhal Guard Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 139	Posted - 2014.07.24 21:52:00 - [21] - Quote If I read the spreadsheet correctly, then it seems like all logis (with the exception of MinLogi) are getting an extra module slot at advanced. That's a buff in my book. An extra slot can go a long way. AmarrAssault, GalAssault, GalLogi, CalScout GalLogi to the end
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2487	Posted - 2014.07.24 21:56:00 - [22] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Entirely legitimate suggestions..... Min Logi = Repping Mad Bomber? I suppose the Target Painter was a bit far fetched and falls into EWAR/ Scout not Logi.... Trust me I would LOVE the idea of Target Painters, but we do need to be realistic in terms of Dust's development capabilities. As for the remote idea, it hammers in that concept of 'Indirect Combat Support' that the Logi's need to have. Battlefield control is a very good thing to have and giving the Minmatar Logi the ability to rep and support his team but also make use of remotes to set up traps and minefields to defend his team against the enemy is a fantastic angle on the support role. Granted I'd like some tweaks to remotes to do away with so much Ultimate Frisbee 514. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1173	Posted - 2014.07.24 22:08:00 - [23] - Quote Because: One change at a time. Too many changes garble up any update's attempt at balance. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2004	Posted - 2014.07.24 23:28:00 - [24] - Quote I personally think that medium suits should have higher regen that light suits since light suits have the advantage of a smaller hitbox, stealth, scanning and speed built right into the suit. Logi's getting a little less than assaults since assaults are sort of supposed to be getting damaged a lot more. But I could see the Logi coming along to the regen ride if the assault ever goes down that path. Beyond that though, the Logi's aren't really hurting for a buff as much as other things are. Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3273	Posted - 2014.07.24 23:41:00 - [25] - Quote Meee One wrote: That would be nice seeing as you're defensless. I've met many a 1000HP Logi. Can't say a single one of them has been "defenseless". Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2490	Posted - 2014.07.24 23:46:00 - [26] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: I personally think that medium suits should have higher regen that light suits since light suits have the advantage of a smaller hitbox, stealth, scanning and speed built right into the suit. Logi's getting a little less than assaults since assaults are sort of supposed to be getting damaged a lot more. But I could see the Logi coming along to the regen ride if the assault ever goes down that path. Beyond that though, the Logi's aren't really hurting for a buff as much as other things are. Regen should be a theme for all medium frames. Its easy to say "Oh Assaults should have eHP and Logistics should have regen" but if you have an Assault who's main tank is his eHP, well then you get a really skinny Commando with a sidearm. Logistics need to be viable in a fight, but not superior in a head on encounter with an attacker class. Assaults on the other hand need a little bit more since they DO need to survive a head on encounter, not just crossfire. As I've said before I'd lower the number of slots a Logi has to decrease the sheer ISK cost to run the suit, bring up the base stats so compensate for the loss of the additional modules, lower base PG/CPU due the lesser fitting needs, and increase its PG/CPU reduction for equipment to compensate for the lesser resources. What you get is a Logistics suit that performs similar to an Assault, with the Assault having slightly better defenses for head on engagements, and a fitting setup that encourages the use of equipment on Logistics. So what does the Assault 'give up'? The ability to fit 2-3 additional equipment in exchange for a sidearm and slightly better defense and superior offense. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Ghost Steps G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 2	Posted - 2014.07.24 23:46:00 - [27] - Quote they already have a defined role, an important one. they rule on the WP generation. An immense amount of stamina can help though.
Jack 3enimble Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 62	Posted - 2014.07.24 23:51:00 - [28] - Quote Really? Another thread by you.. How many threads are you going to start on the subject?
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3277	Posted - 2014.07.25 01:51:00 - [29] - Quote Meee One wrote: Why doesn't anyone think logistics needs a buff? Seeking honest answers only. The goal at the moment is to move slayers out of other Frames into Assault Frames. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 963	Posted - 2014.07.25 02:11:00 - [30] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Because: One change at a time. Too many changes garble up any update's attempt at balance. Finally an honest answer. Ok,but logistics is still too expensive to run consecutively compared to any other suit and suffer so badly stat wisw IMHO. But i shall accept this for now,or at least until i feel like posting again. New thread FTW!!!



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