Difference between scanning an dampening is information. Even when the removal of squad sharing kicks in scanning has the teamwork multiplication issue: if one Scout can see someone, the can transmit that data (via voice chat) to up to 15 other people; if one Scout can not be seen...that has no impact on their available information.

Certainly, a coordinated scanner + several dampened mercs will be dangerous in coordination but fitting for dampening is a greater loss of EHP than fitting for scanning is. Effective passive scan fits (looking at Amarr Scout) really only need 1 (44m) or 2 (61m) Range Amps, more or at least at many slots available for tanking modules. Alternatively, they can go the super scanner route for 360 degree, permanently low scans out to almost 100m, feeding Intel to their squad mates.

They can be countered, just use your eyes.

Sit on a objective, the scout will come to you, then you shot him.

Scanning is not a counter to dampening, dampening is a counter to scanning. Scanning is an advantage: to know where people are. Not being scanned is not an advantage, it's just not being at a disadvantage. Being scanned is a disadvantage.

Scanning < Dampening for this reason. Dampening always needs to be greater than scanning but at the same time the cost is greater. Dampening mods both cost more ISK and CPU than precision mods because they are more effective.

Your staple of your argument is the cloak. The cloak is an advantage, correct. However you claim that it is nigh impossible to scan cloaked scouts.....because they dampen. Did you know you can scan cloaked scouts? No joke on my Gallente Scout, which has only two high slots, which I frequently devote to precision enhancers, I have scanned numerous cloaked scouts. Even a Minmatar Logi can achieve lower precision than I can yet I still scan those who cloak and don't dampen enough. The cloak is not as much a dampener as it is a LOS dampener.

The system known as LOS scan is when you see an enemy, they appear on you minimap. This used to be a huge problem when LOS scan was shared, so when someone even looked at a scout the whole squad would see them and it completely negated the low profile and dampening all together, it's precision zero scanning.

The cloak is a counter to LOS scanning and a little bit of radar scanning. Visually a cloak scout is easily noticed when they are in motion. Even when they stand still they can be noticed; I have even sniped motionless cloaked scouts.

Cloak comes at a big cost though, so while you gain an advantage in LOS scan avoidance, you lose a chunk of fitting abilities. It's not like there is no trade off, it's there but the trade off disadvantage is only an indirect advantage to you.

The point of dampening is to avoid detection and the point of scanning is to locate enemies. If the point of scanning was to counter dampening what is the point of dampening? The point of cloaking is to evade LOS/scan, it does not completely negate attentiveness. You don't need superman's x-ray vision to notice a cloaked scout, you just have to be vigilant which is what any smart warrior is anyways.

When I cross streets in this game I look both ways, so I don't get roadkilled. When I cross into enemy territory I always check behind me and frequently even though I have very good scanning abilities.

The point I'm making is that your reliance on scans is your own folly, there is little to no issue with dampening. Reliance on scans is ignorance of dampening. Quote me on that bitches.

Again I have no problem with dampening, since people running dampeners can still be seen. The problem here is the cloak has no counter when dampening is factored in.

I run an advanced caldari scout with 2 precision mods and 2 range mods the vast majority of my games and Im very aware that there are alot of cloaked scouts that I can scan.

To put it bluntly, those scouts are doing it wrong. Or maybe not. That level of dampening is probably 100% fine for the vast majority of the enemies they meet in public matches, so who cares? The cloaking device is enough most of the time to crap all over pub matches.

Even so, that scout running no damps will have a massive advantage over me in HP, like Ive said before, so if they see me and respond with anything near the skill level I can put forth, they will win anyway. I know of a few scouts that Im pretty sure dont run dampeners or scans on their fit and they can dump all over me even if I see and attack them first just because a 100-200 hp advantage for a scout allows them time to go into strafe mode and respond while being incredibly hard to hit.

Then if they ARE running a dampened fit with a cloak, they become raptor jesus and slaughter everyone, there is no counter for it. I dont see how anyone can say people being invisible with no in game counter aside from magically seeing them through all the environmental effects and lighting issues while trying to accomplish an objective isnt a problem.

You choose to ignore the obvious answer, you choose to say that it is, in itself, too difficult or impossible. VIGILANCE. Also tune your graphics above 480 if that is the issue here.

I have absolutely no problem seeing cloaked scouts, especially in motion. They are there, loud and clear. I have sniped them too! If a scout remains motionless when cloaked then they are doing it right. But like I said it doesn't last forever, the cloak will deactivate and there will be a window of opportunity.

You can't counter cloaks + damps with scans because damps are a counter to scanning; it would be like using scissors to try and cut rock-paper.

If you get killed before the cloak is forced to deactivate then the scout has done everything on the checklist correctly and deserves the point. If they fitted correctly to avoid scans and played to the strengths of the cloak, which is immobility, then the scout really shouldn't be countered during it's window of cloaking. The counter to the cloak is in it's cooldown. The cooldown is your window of opportunity to bite back.

I have killed numerous of cloaked scouts I have seen others do so as well, I just don't see you're "There is no counter" point, I think you are just looking for a low road when there is only the high road. However kudos to being calm and not all ragey in your post most of the time I see just rants.

Again people have documented with video that even scouts running full speed in the open can be very hard to see.

Here is one for reference: link

I've experienced even worse instances of the visibility issues in the video above.

Also while pursuing scouts around cover they could OR could not stop dead to achieve full invisibility, even if conditions allow you to see them while they are running. In this position you have a dilemma: you can assume the scout has stopped and carefully pan around to see if you can red dot them, or you can assume they kept running and continue pursuit. Either way you leave yourself very vulnerable to the cloaker (if he did not stop and you are carefully looking for him, he can be sneaking up behind you, or he could have stopped and you could be looking in the wrong spot and he can wreck you before you can respond if he initiates on you from standstill) AND to his teamates. This gives any scout a massive advantage wether they remain immobile or continue to run. The power of the cloak is not just in what the scout is doing, but also in what he MIGHT be doing, so I think saying immobility is where the strength of cloaking devices lies is incorrect.

Like I said, I dont care about dampeners except that they combine with the cloak to make it uncounterable and extremely powerful. My question here is not why arent dampeners counterable. Dampeners, like scanning modules, are counterable by visual spotting and shooting their user. The question is: why isnt the cloak counterable when combined with dampeners.

I can see cloakers, conditions permitting, just like you can. I have sniped cloaked scouts too. I use scanning as a suppliment to my situational awareness, not a replacement for it. None of what you have said has answered the question: why doesnt cloaking + dampeners have any kind of in-game counter?

You are totally right though, this is like trying to cut rock-paper with scissors. But thats why the game is rock/paper/scissors, not rock-paper/scissors. If one option is dominant and has no way to respond within the game, it is uncounterable and overpowered.

What is your proposed solution?

Your anecdote on pursuing a scout made me happy. That is the absolute beauty of the scout. Please recall I do not use cloak at all as a Gallente Scout and resisted putting the cloak into the game in the first place. I have been the scout in your anecdote but without a cloak. It's a legitimate tactic used by any intermediate level scout, it's the bait & lure. The folly of many mercs is that they follow a scout down the rabbit hole. Forethought on the capabilities and nature of a scout would tell you to leave it alone. In this game, there are instances where it's better not to engage. If a HAV runs by you don't jump out and shoot it. If 2 HMG heavies are walking by you but don't notice you don't fight them, you hide and avoid detection. If a scout runs away from you, maybe you shouldn't always pursue. I'm not saying don't engage them in fights at all, but if a scout goes running off behind some rocks and you know it's a possibility they will have a cloak, it's a better idea to be patient and try again another time.

I have ran behind objects before, hid behind them, and slowly rotate around them as I watch my victim on TACNET try and look for me. Scouts don't magically end up behind you, you get too close and they see you when you can't see them.

So now onto that rock paper scissors. Scout with damps and cloak is rock-paper. Scissors are scanner. If paper is the cloak, and rock is damps, then to cut rock paper, you need rock scissors. Have you tried dampening yourself, sufficiently?

Yes the cloak makes people invisible, I believe that was the point. Like I said earlier, you can wait out cloaks. Cloaks are only active for periods of time and if you are dampened, a scout won't know how to time their cloaking intervals without directly seeing you.

The cloak can be difficult to see yes but there are work-arounds that revolve around strategies, vigilance, and fits.

Counter point: What is the counter to always being visible on scans?

Defeating any form of stealth?

Perhaps the issue could be resolved with another look at cloak up/downtime?

I only use a STD cloak (because I run STD/ADV 99% of the time) and it's currently, what, 20 seconds active, 30 seconds down?
Should we increase the regen further?

And 3 dampeners to be invisible isn't costly?

3 dampeners PER UNIT vs 4 precision enhancers on a single unit?


Damps will only hide the specific suit, scanning will reveal it to your entire squad and with voice comms to the entire team.