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Vesta Opalus
Kang Lo Holding
6
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Posted - 2014.07.19 01:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello thurr.
I've been observing the Hotfix Charlie discussions around E-War and I just want to ask a question:
Why does the in-game mechanic that makes you nearly or completely invisible (cloaking + a couple of dampeners) have no counter whatsoever in the game?
You would think that people would realize and acknowledge that, in an FPS game, the equipment and modules that make you very unlikely to be shot at or hit would be incredibly powerful. Yet here we are, months after cloaks have been added to the game, with a module/equipment combo that makes you virtually invisible, and no counter for it available except for an absurd amount of hawk eyed non-stop vigilance.
Why is this?
The natural counter to this mechanic is scanning, however even a Caldari (or Amar after Hotfix C) scout with maxed out precision, or Gal Logi with proto scans, cannot detect dampened scouts if they are using just a modest amount of dampeners, and without being able to scan the dampened scout, any scout with a cloaking device can just run wild.
Why is it that the scanning fits, who, at least for the Caldari scout or Amar scout (not as sure about Gal Logis fitting woes these days), make some pretty big sacrifices in terms of survivability in order to run a decent scanning suit, cannot counter the cloak/dampener fits that trade one kind of survivability (generally sheer quantity of HP or speed) for what is, in my opinion, the even better option of being entirely invisible.
This issue of the cloaking/dampener mechanic being uncounterable via mechanics is setting up the same kind of imbalance we have been seeing in AV vs. Vehicle balance, where vehicles run rampant in games because AV is very ineffective against them. Only this one is worse. All a scanning fit can do is force the cloaker to run more dampeners.
At the end of the day, cloakers cannot ever be effectively countered.
P.S. Pre-emtive counter to inevitable scanning is OP complaint: Scanning is OP! However, scanning passively with a scout comes at a heavy cost in modules, for example my Caldari advanced scanning fit with 2 complex and 2 range extenders has only one complex shield extender for survivability left over. If precision were useful beyond that point, scanning fits would end up with even less HP. The counter to scanning suits is to shoot them, they have even less HP than a starter militia fit, and even the scouts they are searching for can easily slaughter them in milliseconds.
Clearly my opinion is that scanning should act as a viable counter (even at the high end of the meta game, where scanning currently is entirely inadequate) to cloaking. Given that a scanning fit is sacrificing its ability to both tank and deal damage to simply allow its squad to see an incoming scout, I don't think its much to ask that their fits actually perform the task they were created to accomplish.
What do you fellas think? |
Velociraptor antirrhopus
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
336
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Posted - 2014.07.19 01:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cool. Gallente Logis hate you too.
We're always overlooked, never chosen for PC battles over Minmatar. But we do the dirty work and we do it well.
Eventually the Dust community is going to nerf itself into nonexistance. Please don't ruin heavies CCP.
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abdullah muzaffar
Immortal Guides
9
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Posted - 2014.07.19 01:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ummmm. Tanks? |
Cody Sietz
SVER True Blood Dark Taboo
3635
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Posted - 2014.07.19 02:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
They can be countered, just use your eyes.
Sit on a objective, the scout will come to you, then you shot him.
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
662
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Posted - 2014.07.19 03:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
Difference between scanning an dampening is information. Even when the removal of squad sharing kicks in scanning has the teamwork multiplication issue: if one Scout can see someone, the can transmit that data (via voice chat) to up to 15 other people; if one Scout can not be seen...that has no impact on their available information.
In other words, scanning rewards teamwork; dampening rewards avoiding scanning.
Certainly, a coordinated scanner + several dampened mercs will be dangerous in coordination but fitting for dampening is a greater loss of EHP than fitting for scanning is. Effective passive scan fits (looking at Amarr Scout) really only need 1 (44m) or 2 (61m) Range Amps, more or at least at many slots available for tanking modules. Alternatively, they can go the super scanner route for 360 degree, permanently low scans out to almost 100m, feeding Intel to their squad mates.
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Vesta Opalus
Kang Lo Holding
6
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Posted - 2014.07.19 03:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Difference between scanning an dampening is information. Even when the removal of squad sharing kicks in scanning has the teamwork multiplication issue: if one Scout can see someone, the can transmit that data (via voice chat) to up to 15 other people; if one Scout can not be seen...that has no impact on their available information.
Well lets discuss this whole information concept of scanning vs. dampening. Lets say I want to make a scanning fit, so I go Caldari Scout to proto level, and fit for the amount of scanning that makes sense if Im expecting to run into a Gallente Scout. The amount of scanning that makes sense is ~1 precision modifier and x2 range extender. I only use one precision mod because that Gallente scout will win the EWar regardless of what I do, so it isnt worth sacrificing extra high slots to run higher precision scans. Now I can passively scan around me and I will pick up any medium frames with no damps, any sentinels, and any scouts who have less than one damp (and presumably less than one brain cell).
So thats cool, I can scan all the mediums and heavies for my team. However we still have no counter to scouts running damps and cloaks. So Im using 3 slots to run these scans, meanwhile our Gallente counter suit is running a cloak and 2 damps to get under the scans. This leaves the Gallente with 2 low slots and two high slots. With the remaining slots the Gallente scout can run +HP/damage mods and run as a slayer (he will end up with much more hp and/or damage than our Caldari scanning fit could possibly run), OR he could have 2 precision/2 range modules to get some pretty comparable scans while maintaining complete invisibility. So whats the point of scanning fits on scouts? Well... you can scan all those medium/heavy suits, but so can any logi on your team. So why dedicate a guy to running a pretty weak suit in terms of combat effectiveness when you can just get one of the logis in your heavy/logi blob to run a few scanning modules and pick up the exact same stuff?
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Certainly, a coordinated scanner + several dampened mercs will be dangerous in coordination but fitting for dampening is a greater loss of EHP than fitting for scanning is. Effective passive scan fits (looking at Amarr Scout) really only need 1 (44m) or 2 (61m) Range Amps, more or at least at many slots available for tanking modules. Alternatively, they can go the super scanner route for 360 degree, permanently low scans out to almost 100m, feeding Intel to their squad mates.
I kind of touched on this above and in my OP, however I want to explicitly state it. Fitting for dampening is not a greater loss of EHP than fitting for scanning is.
Fitting dampening even for a non-dampening specialized suit (Amar/Minmatar) is 3 dampeners and an equipment slot if you want visual invisibility to avoid EVERYTHING. Fitting for your scanning fit is 3 modules at minimum to get a good area of scan, which will not pick up scouts running 1/2 dampeners. To force them up to that 3 dampener sacrifice you have to utilize more precision modules, which will still leave you unable to scan anything running 3 regardless of what you do.
In addition fitting for dampening increases your survivability, I would argue that it increases it far more than the resulting loss of HP, so what seems like a loss of HP is in fact a dramatic increase to survivability, which is what is really important. Who cares how many HP you have if no one ever shoots at you? Meanwhile fitting for scanning decreases your HP, and while it can help you decide when to fight or not to fight (which provides an increase to survivability just like damps), it will not let you escape from an enemies notice entirely, so the increase is still not going to save you and I don't think its nearly as effective at saving your butt than cloaking/dampening.
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Vesta Opalus
Kang Lo Holding
6
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Posted - 2014.07.19 03:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:They can be countered, just use your eyes.
Sit on a objective, the scout will come to you, then you shot him.
Again "just use your eyes" is a cop out. The cloaking device is a way to dramatically decrease how visible you are, there is no corresponding way to make people more visible except for scanning, and it does not effectively counter the cloaks if dampeners are counted in. And as I have stated before, the scanning suit loses in every possible way to any incoming scout.
I am a scanning fit scout, and a scout is coming into my area. If he is not damped, I will see him, but he will have dramatically more health/damage/speed than I will, and he will win. If he is damped, I will not see him unless 1. he is stupid enough to rush me head on and 2. we are in an area which does not make the cloak user entirely invisible and 3. he is not attacking while his teamates are occupying me in any way, and he will win.
As you can see the deck is stacked for the cloaker/dampened scout, even for people running fits specifically intended to counter them (at least in my mind, since clearly there is no counter for the cloaking + damps mechanic currently, which is the topic here, and exactly the point).
There is no way you can honestly say you are supposed to maintain 24/7 360 degree vigilance against something like the cloaking device which people like Judge have documented in videos as being incredibly hard to see in many lighting/battle conditions. The cloaking mechanic needs a counter. |
GJMAD Revamped
Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 03:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
As for the Op, scan are apparently to effective against the more known players in this game so in term get them more attention and in term get the more bad of wagon.
While as long as my scout can't be scanned by any suit that should equal balance in the eyes of CCP.
Can you tell the sarcasm.
Dampening has no real counter is the point here. As for just using your eyes, that gets completely ruined by lighting. Lighting issues can make a running scout completely invisible. As mentioned above, having to hawk eye the entire match shouldn't be the only(barely) counter for dampening.
My point
2 damps on my pro gal scout will get under any scans for the usual pub players, 3 for those rare times you see a competent red dot. While adding a cloak can just make it impossible for any scan to see. While any other scout just requires an extra damp and or a higher tier cloak to get under scans. A damped scout loses little to no survivabilty unlike the caldari scout which loses a considerable amount. As for the new Amarr since it will hold the new place for scans, they can achive great scans for not even close to any lose of eHp, that greatly gives them a favor for scanning. Since ccp seems like its going through with removing shared intel (dumb to remove it), dampening will get around even easier now. And since not everyone can run pc (which was the original plan ccp wanted) the greater impact will be in pubs since their aren't full squads in every match and their is minimal communication between pubbys, a scan scout will do little to no harm, while invisible scouts run around. But in a competent squad it is dangerous, either way achieving full balance does, atlest for the moment seem impossible.
As for the gal logi mention above, a proto gal logi with a duvolle focused active scanner can scan most anything now a days.
For the tanks, thats for another topic but for now lets just enjoy the fact that new players cant even get close to killing a competent players tank, the exception is only for the tankers that just sit there and take it and just end up getting killed.
ps. I only have lv 1 cloaks, i dont need a cloak to be a good scout, any true scout before the cloak implementation can tell you that it isn't needed to be competent scout. pps. i use the cloak as one of my troll tools
Let the Madness consume you
42.3mil SP and counting
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Bojo The Mighty
Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno
4223
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 03:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
Scanning is not a counter to dampening, dampening is a counter to scanning. Scanning is an advantage: to know where people are. Not being scanned is not an advantage, it's just not being at a disadvantage. Being scanned is a disadvantage.
Scanning < Dampening for this reason. Dampening always needs to be greater than scanning but at the same time the cost is greater. Dampening mods both cost more ISK and CPU than precision mods because they are more effective.
Your staple of your argument is the cloak. The cloak is an advantage, correct. However you claim that it is nigh impossible to scan cloaked scouts.....because they dampen. Did you know you can scan cloaked scouts? No joke on my Gallente Scout, which has only two high slots, which I frequently devote to precision enhancers, I have scanned numerous cloaked scouts. Even a Minmatar Logi can achieve lower precision than I can yet I still scan those who cloak and don't dampen enough. The cloak is not as much a dampener as it is a LOS dampener.
The system known as LOS scan is when you see an enemy, they appear on you minimap. This used to be a huge problem when LOS scan was shared, so when someone even looked at a scout the whole squad would see them and it completely negated the low profile and dampening all together, it's precision zero scanning.
The cloak is a counter to LOS scanning and a little bit of radar scanning. Visually a cloak scout is easily noticed when they are in motion. Even when they stand still they can be noticed; I have even sniped motionless cloaked scouts.
Cloak comes at a big cost though, so while you gain an advantage in LOS scan avoidance, you lose a chunk of fitting abilities. It's not like there is no trade off, it's there but the trade off disadvantage is only an indirect advantage to you.
The point of dampening is to avoid detection and the point of scanning is to locate enemies. If the point of scanning was to counter dampening what is the point of dampening? The point of cloaking is to evade LOS/scan, it does not completely negate attentiveness. You don't need superman's x-ray vision to notice a cloaked scout, you just have to be vigilant which is what any smart warrior is anyways.
When I cross streets in this game I look both ways, so I don't get roadkilled. When I cross into enemy territory I always check behind me and frequently even though I have very good scanning abilities.
The point I'm making is that your reliance on scans is your own folly, there is little to no issue with dampening. Reliance on scans is ignorance of dampening. Quote me on that bitches.
Smell the burning flesh. Taste the tangy sulfur air. Volcano Season - Moltar's Haiku : SGC2C
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Vesta Opalus
Kang Lo Holding
6
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 03:54:00 -
[10] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Scanning is not a counter to dampening, dampening is a counter to scanning. Scanning is an advantage: to know where people are. Not being scanned is not an advantage, it's just not being at a disadvantage. Being scanned is a disadvantage.
Scanning < Dampening for this reason. Dampening always needs to be greater than scanning but at the same time the cost is greater. Dampening mods both cost more ISK and CPU than precision mods because they are more effective.
Your staple of your argument is the cloak. The cloak is an advantage, correct. However you claim that it is nigh impossible to scan cloaked scouts.....because they dampen. Did you know you can scan cloaked scouts? No joke on my Gallente Scout, which has only two high slots, which I frequently devote to precision enhancers, I have scanned numerous cloaked scouts. Even a Minmatar Logi can achieve lower precision than I can yet I still scan those who cloak and don't dampen enough. The cloak is not as much a dampener as it is a LOS dampener.
The system known as LOS scan is when you see an enemy, they appear on you minimap. This used to be a huge problem when LOS scan was shared, so when someone even looked at a scout the whole squad would see them and it completely negated the low profile and dampening all together, it's precision zero scanning.
The cloak is a counter to LOS scanning and a little bit of radar scanning. Visually a cloak scout is easily noticed when they are in motion. Even when they stand still they can be noticed; I have even sniped motionless cloaked scouts.
Cloak comes at a big cost though, so while you gain an advantage in LOS scan avoidance, you lose a chunk of fitting abilities. It's not like there is no trade off, it's there but the trade off disadvantage is only an indirect advantage to you.
The point of dampening is to avoid detection and the point of scanning is to locate enemies. If the point of scanning was to counter dampening what is the point of dampening? The point of cloaking is to evade LOS/scan, it does not completely negate attentiveness. You don't need superman's x-ray vision to notice a cloaked scout, you just have to be vigilant which is what any smart warrior is anyways.
When I cross streets in this game I look both ways, so I don't get roadkilled. When I cross into enemy territory I always check behind me and frequently even though I have very good scanning abilities.
The point I'm making is that your reliance on scans is your own folly, there is little to no issue with dampening. Reliance on scans is ignorance of dampening. Quote me on that bitches.
Again I have no problem with dampening, since people running dampeners can still be seen. The problem here is the cloak has no counter when dampening is factored in.
I run an advanced caldari scout with 2 precision mods and 2 range mods the vast majority of my games and Im very aware that there are alot of cloaked scouts that I can scan.
To put it bluntly, those scouts are doing it wrong. Or maybe not. That level of dampening is probably 100% fine for the vast majority of the enemies they meet in public matches, so who cares? The cloaking device is enough most of the time to crap all over pub matches.
Even so, that scout running no damps will have a massive advantage over me in HP, like Ive said before, so if they see me and respond with anything near the skill level I can put forth, they will win anyway. I know of a few scouts that Im pretty sure dont run dampeners or scans on their fit and they can dump all over me even if I see and attack them first just because a 100-200 hp advantage for a scout allows them time to go into strafe mode and respond while being incredibly hard to hit.
Then if they ARE running a dampened fit with a cloak, they become raptor jesus and slaughter everyone, there is no counter for it. I dont see how anyone can say people being invisible with no in game counter aside from magically seeing them through all the environmental effects and lighting issues while trying to accomplish an objective isnt a problem. |
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Bojo The Mighty
Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno
4229
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Posted - 2014.07.19 04:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote: Again I have no problem with dampening, since people running dampeners can still be seen. The problem here is the cloak has no counter when dampening is factored in.
I run an advanced caldari scout with 2 precision mods and 2 range mods the vast majority of my games and Im very aware that there are alot of cloaked scouts that I can scan.
To put it bluntly, those scouts are doing it wrong. Or maybe not. That level of dampening is probably 100% fine for the vast majority of the enemies they meet in public matches, so who cares? The cloaking device is enough most of the time to crap all over pub matches.
Even so, that scout running no damps will have a massive advantage over me in HP, like Ive said before, so if they see me and respond with anything near the skill level I can put forth, they will win anyway. I know of a few scouts that Im pretty sure dont run dampeners or scans on their fit and they can dump all over me even if I see and attack them first just because a 100-200 hp advantage for a scout allows them time to go into strafe mode and respond while being incredibly hard to hit.
Then if they ARE running a dampened fit with a cloak, they become raptor jesus and slaughter everyone, there is no counter for it. I dont see how anyone can say people being invisible with no in game counter aside from magically seeing them through all the environmental effects and lighting issues while trying to accomplish an objective isnt a problem.
You choose to ignore the obvious answer, you choose to say that it is, in itself, too difficult or impossible. VIGILANCE. Also tune your graphics above 480 if that is the issue here.
I have absolutely no problem seeing cloaked scouts, especially in motion. They are there, loud and clear. I have sniped them too! If a scout remains motionless when cloaked then they are doing it right. But like I said it doesn't last forever, the cloak will deactivate and there will be a window of opportunity.
You can't counter cloaks + damps with scans because damps are a counter to scanning; it would be like using scissors to try and cut rock-paper.
If you get killed before the cloak is forced to deactivate then the scout has done everything on the checklist correctly and deserves the point. If they fitted correctly to avoid scans and played to the strengths of the cloak, which is immobility, then the scout really shouldn't be countered during it's window of cloaking. The counter to the cloak is in it's cooldown. The cooldown is your window of opportunity to bite back.
I have killed numerous of cloaked scouts I have seen others do so as well, I just don't see you're "There is no counter" point, I think you are just looking for a low road when there is only the high road. However kudos to being calm and not all ragey in your post most of the time I see just rants.
Smell the burning flesh. Taste the tangy sulfur air. Volcano Season - Moltar's Haiku : SGC2C
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Vesta Opalus
Kang Lo Holding
8
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Posted - 2014.07.19 04:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote: You choose to ignore the obvious answer, you choose to say that it is, in itself, too difficult or impossible. VIGILANCE. Also tune your graphics above 480 if that is the issue here.
I have absolutely no problem seeing cloaked scouts, especially in motion. They are there, loud and clear. I have sniped them too! If a scout remains motionless when cloaked then they are doing it right. But like I said it doesn't last forever, the cloak will deactivate and there will be a window of opportunity.
You can't counter cloaks + damps with scans because damps are a counter to scanning; it would be like using scissors to try and cut rock-paper.
If you get killed before the cloak is forced to deactivate then the scout has done everything on the checklist correctly and deserves the point. If they fitted correctly to avoid scans and played to the strengths of the cloak, which is immobility, then the scout really shouldn't be countered during it's window of cloaking. The counter to the cloak is in it's cooldown. The cooldown is your window of opportunity to bite back.
I have killed numerous of cloaked scouts I have seen others do so as well, I just don't see you're "There is no counter" point, I think you are just looking for a low road when there is only the high road. However kudos to being calm and not all ragey in your post most of the time I see just rants.
Again people have documented with video that even scouts running full speed in the open can be very hard to see.
Here is one for reference: link
I've experienced even worse instances of the visibility issues in the video above.
Also while pursuing scouts around cover they could OR could not stop dead to achieve full invisibility, even if conditions allow you to see them. In this position you have a dilemma: you can assume the scout has stopped and carefully pan around to see if you can red dot them, or you can assume they kept running and continue pursuit. Either way you leave yourself very vulnerable to the cloaker (if he did not stop and you are carefully looking for him, he can be sneaking up behind you, or he could have stopped and you could be looking in the wrong spot and he can wreck you before you can respond if he initiates on you from standstill) AND to his teamates. This gives any scout a massive advantage wether they remain immobile or continue to run. The power of the cloak is not just in what the scout is doing, but also in what he MIGHT be doing, so I think saying immobility is where the strength of cloaking devices lies is incorrect.
Like I said, I dont care about dampeners except that they combine with the cloak to make it uncounterable and extremely powerful. My question here is not why arent dampeners counterable. Dampeners, like scanning modules, are counterable by visual spotting and shooting their user. The question is: why isnt the cloak counterable when combined with dampeners.
I can see cloakers, conditions permitting, just like you can. I have sniped cloaked scouts too. I use scanning as a suppliment to my situational awareness, not a replacement for it. None of what you have said has answered the question: why doesnt cloaking + dampeners have any kind of in-game counter?
You are totally right though, this is like trying to cut rock-paper with scissors. But thats why the game is rock/paper/scissors, not rock-paper/scissors. If one option is dominant and has no way to respond within the game, it is uncounterable and overpowered. |
GJMAD Revamped
Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.07.19 04:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
For the graphics issue, I run a hi def tv with amazing refresh rate but even I can admit that I can see were people come from when they talk about cloaks. To be honest the only time I cannot see a cloaked scout is when the light affects the cloaks visuals, but Is that really how it is intended? But for full visibility that is clearly not intended for a sprinting cloaked scouts, since i've seen scouts cloaked up be invisible with no shimmer effect, there should lie the problem that most should be having.
Pardon the poor grammar, im just trying to get the point across.
Let the Madness consume you
42.3mil SP and counting
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Skullmiser Vulcansu
143
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Posted - 2014.07.19 13:00:00 -
[14] - Quote
What is your proposed solution?
If this game was fun, I wouldn't be playing it.
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Bojo The Mighty
Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno
4238
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Posted - 2014.07.19 19:05:00 -
[15] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Again people have documented with video that even scouts running full speed in the open can be very hard to see. Here is one for reference: linkI've experienced even worse instances of the visibility issues in the video above. Also while pursuing scouts around cover they could OR could not stop dead to achieve full invisibility, even if conditions allow you to see them while they are running. In this position you have a dilemma: you can assume the scout has stopped and carefully pan around to see if you can red dot them, or you can assume they kept running and continue pursuit. Either way you leave yourself very vulnerable to the cloaker (if he did not stop and you are carefully looking for him, he can be sneaking up behind you, or he could have stopped and you could be looking in the wrong spot and he can wreck you before you can respond if he initiates on you from standstill) AND to his teamates. This gives any scout a massive advantage wether they remain immobile or continue to run. The power of the cloak is not just in what the scout is doing, but also in what he MIGHT be doing, so I think saying immobility is where the strength of cloaking devices lies is incorrect. Like I said, I dont care about dampeners except that they combine with the cloak to make it uncounterable and extremely powerful. My question here is not why arent dampeners counterable. Dampeners, like scanning modules, are counterable by visual spotting and shooting their user. The question is: why isnt the cloak counterable when combined with dampeners. I can see cloakers, conditions permitting, just like you can. I have sniped cloaked scouts too. I use scanning as a suppliment to my situational awareness, not a replacement for it. None of what you have said has answered the question: why doesnt cloaking + dampeners have any kind of in-game counter? You are totally right though, this is like trying to cut rock-paper with scissors. But thats why the game is rock/paper/scissors, not rock-paper/scissors. If one option is dominant and has no way to respond within the game, it is uncounterable and overpowered. I watched that video and I only failed to spot the blue-cloak effect at the end where blended with the sky.
Your anecdote on pursuing a scout made me happy. That is the absolute beauty of the scout. Please recall I do not use cloak at all as a Gallente Scout and resisted putting the cloak into the game in the first place. I have been the scout in your anecdote but without a cloak. It's a legitimate tactic used by any intermediate level scout, it's the bait & lure. The folly of many mercs is that they follow a scout down the rabbit hole. Forethought on the capabilities and nature of a scout would tell you to leave it alone. In this game, there are instances where it's better not to engage. If a HAV runs by you don't jump out and shoot it. If 2 HMG heavies are walking by you but don't notice you don't fight them, you hide and avoid detection. If a scout runs away from you, maybe you shouldn't always pursue. I'm not saying don't engage them in fights at all, but if a scout goes running off behind some rocks and you know it's a possibility they will have a cloak, it's a better idea to be patient and try again another time.
I have ran behind objects before, hid behind them, and slowly rotate around them as I watch my victim on TACNET try and look for me. Scouts don't magically end up behind you, you get too close and they see you when you can't see them.
The beauty of this game is that it isn't rock paper scissors. It's super rock paper scissors. You can have a heavy frame sniper as opposed to most games where snipers have least health. You can dual tank, you can add HP no matter your frame size, it's great.
So now onto that rock paper scissors. Scout with damps and cloak is rock-paper. Scissors are scanner. If paper is the cloak, and rock is damps, then to cut rock paper, you need rock scissors. Have you tried dampening yourself, sufficiently?
I have anecdotes of dampened medium frames who were consistent thorns in my side because I lost my scanning advantage over them and defied conventions.
Yes the cloak makes people invisible, I believe that was the point. Like I said earlier, you can wait out cloaks. Cloaks are only active for periods of time and if you are dampened, a scout won't know how to time their cloaking intervals without directly seeing you.
The cloak can be difficult to see yes but there are work-arounds that revolve around strategies, vigilance, and fits.
Smell the burning flesh. Taste the tangy sulfur air. Volcano Season - Moltar's Haiku : SGC2C
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Vesta Opalus
Kang Lo Holding
11
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Posted - 2014.07.19 19:06:00 -
[16] - Quote
Skullmiser Vulcansu wrote:What is your proposed solution?
I don't think I have a good solution
We could think about cloaking devices actually increasing your scan profile, so that you are either invisible visually or invisible to scans. Or maybe have some sort of equipment or a special type of precision that is separate from scan precision that works for and against cloaking devices, etc.
Im mostly interested in figuring out why anyone would think its appropriate to have a game mechanic like this and leave it without a counter, and that would naturally lead into people doing their own brainstorming on solutions. |
Vesta Opalus
Kang Lo Holding
11
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Posted - 2014.07.19 19:26:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote: Your anecdote on pursuing a scout made me happy. That is the absolute beauty of the scout. Please recall I do not use cloak at all as a Gallente Scout and resisted putting the cloak into the game in the first place. I have been the scout in your anecdote but without a cloak. It's a legitimate tactic used by any intermediate level scout, it's the bait & lure. The folly of many mercs is that they follow a scout down the rabbit hole. Forethought on the capabilities and nature of a scout would tell you to leave it alone. In this game, there are instances where it's better not to engage. If a HAV runs by you don't jump out and shoot it. If 2 HMG heavies are walking by you but don't notice you don't fight them, you hide and avoid detection. If a scout runs away from you, maybe you shouldn't always pursue. I'm not saying don't engage them in fights at all, but if a scout goes running off behind some rocks and you know it's a possibility they will have a cloak, it's a better idea to be patient and try again another time.
I have ran behind objects before, hid behind them, and slowly rotate around them as I watch my victim on TACNET try and look for me. Scouts don't magically end up behind you, you get too close and they see you when you can't see them.
Yes I have a scout too, I also dont use the cloak on all but a couple of specialized fits. Its very exploitable to have alot of speed and to not be seen. Its much more exploitable to see everything around you and be unseeable.
Bojo The Mighty wrote: So now onto that rock paper scissors. Scout with damps and cloak is rock-paper. Scissors are scanner. If paper is the cloak, and rock is damps, then to cut rock paper, you need rock scissors. Have you tried dampening yourself, sufficiently?
Dampeners will mitigate your vulnerability to cloaked/damped enemies, it will mitigate your vulnerability to everything, but it doesnt actually COUNTER it any more than hiding behind a wall counters the tank thats shooting at you. Where is the anti-cloak option in the game? I want to be able to fit in a way where I can stop cloakers from playing stomp the scrub with my blueberries, but there is nothing.
Bojo The Mighty wrote: Yes the cloak makes people invisible, I believe that was the point. Like I said earlier, you can wait out cloaks. Cloaks are only active for periods of time and if you are dampened, a scout won't know how to time their cloaking intervals without directly seeing you.
The cloak can be difficult to see yes but there are work-arounds that revolve around strategies, vigilance, and fits.
As long as the only strategy against the cloaking device is to not do anything about it until it goes away, it will be overpowered. You can't sit back and wait for junk to just not be dangerous anymore, the initiative goes entirely into the other guys hands that way, but thats where cloaking balance is right now.
If you follow him and try and kill him, he has a massive advantage. If you give up and wait for him to come back, he has a massive advantage. If you wait for his cloak to wear off (while not knowing if he is even still cloaked, so he could actually be both regenerating cloak while moving in behind you or your teamates), he has a massive advantage. But its ok, If you sit at the end of a long hallway with cover on your end with your back against a wall staring madly at the other end waiting for the cloaker to come for you, you have an even chance of winning.
This claim that a cloaked/damped player is at any point at some kind of disadvantage or that there is any strategy that you can use actually take his advantage away is flawed, I think. There is nothing you can do that actually tips things in your favor. All you can do is try to be vigilant all the time or hope he doesnt find you again.
This is exactly my point, there is no counter to cloaking devices paired with dampeners. You can only hope to avoid it or hope the cloaker is an idiot. |
Vesta Opalus
Kang Lo Holding
15
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Posted - 2014.07.21 15:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
Bumping on a weekday so someone in a position to change things might see and think about stuff, and also things. |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
11165
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Posted - 2014.07.21 15:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
Counter point: What is the counter to always being visible on scans?
Defeating any form of stealth?
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Vesta Opalus
Kang Lo Holding
15
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Posted - 2014.07.21 15:55:00 -
[20] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Counter point: What is the counter to always being visible on scans?
Defeating any form of stealth?
Well, scout scanning fits have very little health, and very little dampening, so they can be seen and shot.
However I'm not necessarily saying dampening is the problem here or that dampening needs to be changed. The problem is being invisible to everything with no counter when cloak is paired with dampeners.
Even if dampening is what you end up reducing and you let perma scan exist, you can balance it so that the scanners have to be 100% invested to scan everything, which assures that even a proto scout will be walking around with less hp than a militia frame. This means that the scout cant really kill anything unless it successfully ambushes the enemy, and anyone detecting them (either visually or through their own scans) will be a huge threat. This means the scanning fit will be dependent on their squad to respond to threats effectively, which acts as a natural balance against the strength of passive scans.
Also keep in mind that passive scans exist in a pretty small radius, and active scans exist within a small time window (if CCP would fix supply depot exploits), and outside of that radius/time span a damped/cloaked scout will still have a dominant advantage over anything it runs into. |
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
674
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Posted - 2014.07.21 16:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
Perhaps the issue could be resolved with another look at cloak up/downtime?
I only use a STD cloak (because I run STD/ADV 99% of the time) and it's currently, what, 20 seconds active, 30 seconds down? Should we increase the regen further?
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
11167
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Posted - 2014.07.21 16:19:00 -
[22] - Quote
And 3 dampeners to be invisible isn't costly?
3 dampeners PER UNIT vs 4 precision enhancers on a single unit?
Damps will only hide the specific suit, scanning will reveal it to your entire squad and with voice comms to the entire team.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Vesta Opalus
Kang Lo Holding
15
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Posted - 2014.07.21 17:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Perhaps the issue could be resolved with another look at cloak up/downtime?
I only use a STD cloak (because I run STD/ADV 99% of the time) and it's currently, what, 20 seconds active, 30 seconds down? Should we increase the regen further?
I'd prefer a straight up counter to cloaks instead of adjusting the cloak time, I use cloaks enough to consider the current active time pretty useful without being overpowering. Without dramatically reducing the up time of cloak, I dont think it will address the whole "hey Im invisible now I can win just about any situation with just a little tactical application of intelligence". Leaving the uptime as it is lets cloaking still be nice and strong/useful when it isnt under the influence of whatever counter is hopefully implemented. |
Vesta Opalus
Kang Lo Holding
15
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 17:07:00 -
[24] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:And 3 dampeners to be invisible isn't costly?
3 dampeners PER UNIT vs 4 precision enhancers on a single unit?
Damps will only hide the specific suit, scanning will reveal it to your entire squad and with voice comms to the entire team.
Well I would argue that, in most situations, without range extenders precision modules are not very well spent, but thats individual preference.
As to the 3 dampeners "cost", as I said previously in the thread, investing in dampening is trading one kind of survivability for better survivability. Complaining about losing health or speed when you get invisibility back is like complaining about losing 50 dollars when you immediately get 100 dollars back.
But again I do not necessarily care about dampeners. Its not dampeners in themselves that is the issue, it is dampeners combined with cloaks. We can find another way to balance this that leaves dampeners the king of E-War if that seems appropriate to everyone (I would still disagree with that, but whatever, dampeners alone are not a game breaking advantage, unlike dampeners paired with cloaking devices) |
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