Hi all,
Caldari highest number of high slots
Minmatar equal number of highs and lows, preferring highs

As a minmatar assault I want to say this. A 5/2 layout is always what the cal assault should've had. You will be able to achieve over 600 shield and have a recharger as well. You don't need the lows slots. Try out this fit for the cal assault

4x shield extender
1x shield energizer

1x CPU mod
1x reactive

It'll be awesome, really.

Thanks Rattati for fixing my min slit layout

I understand, but you should've have chosen your suit based on philosophy ie Caldari are shield tankers. Maybe you didn't know, which is something that CCP could explain better.

Trust me though, it won't suck by any means. Yes you may have a little less HP total but you'll have the fastest regenerating HP pool of assaults. You might not have to fit a CPU mod but I recommend you do so you can put a beast mode energizer on.

Oh and by the way, a complex shield is far better than a basic armor for Caldari. Why? Because the shield will regen much faster and will not slow you down. Speed and strafe is key to working a shield tank.

If that works for you great. But a 5 second delay? An 11 second depleted delay? No thanks

That's what regulators are for.

Why dont you try running 2x reg, 4x shield, 1x recharge (after CPU buff)

That suit will have fantastic regen for its health pool

I've beer understood running armor on Cal suits. Shield suits brah

Cal scout has 1 low slot at std and adv
cal scout has 2 bonuses that require low slot to maiximize
even at proto having only 2 slots to maximzime 2 bonuses is useless
std and adv is even more useless with only 1 slot.
really on the right direction if you wanting to make the cal scout more worthless than the present amarr scout

So when do those skilled into cal scout get respecs. you replaced its role and gave it to amarr. then give it crap bonuses that both require low slots now wanting to make it even more useless changing the slots so they only get 2 low at proto. I dont think you can **** that suit anymore than you already plan to do. so only option is respec out of the crap you are making it into.

OK this is literally going nowhere.

Can I ask you to only reply with "I like these changes" and see if there is a harmony in those answers. I seem to see a few happy Min Assaults, what about the GA STD and ADV logis who have been shafted out of slots for no reason that I can see?

My belief was that players were asking for the slots to make more sense, less duplicate options and more racial flavoring. Such as fewer 3-2, 2-3.

I also see a lot of Cals who want to keep their 2 lows to put amor plates or reps, that's really not a playstyle we would design around or cater too.

Also keep in mind that Assaults are getting a decent ehp buff and pg/cpu, so don't use the current pg/cpu as a reason to say "no I don't want 4-1.

Also keep in mind that we will be buffing dmg mods so a better use for high slots.

In the end, we cannot, with slot layout design, stop anyone from doing shield extenders and normal plates. Yes, they will have of ehp, and that is something we are trying to address in Delta with some fitting bonus/efficacy solutions.

I like these changes overall, but I wanted to address this one point.

It has always been my feeling that an Armor Repair module was essential on any suit unless it had built in passive armor repair. Reactive plate can be substituted of course.

I propose that every suit should get 1 HP/sec passive armor repair, so that Armor Repair modules are no longer a mandatory fitting. This would allow suits with only one low slot to equip something useful rather than only being able to choose between an Armor Repair or a Reactive Plate.

Yes, Caldari are Shield Tankers, not armor tankers, but that is the point. If they get hit by a flux grenade they will need that armor buffer to survive long enough to get to cover. They don't rely on armor in every engagement, but they need a trickle regen so that small armor buffer is there when they need it.

Yea shields really do need loving. They can never be equal to Armour while armour has rep tools, triage hives, 100% needles etc....

(Why no shield rep tool? Why no shield repair hive? Why no 100% shield regeneration nanite injector? WHY CCP!?)

It was like that when I go here .


On all the other comments, I am re-convinced, the matrix will be revisited, maybe with some footnotes that allow for formal exceptions to the rule.

Yes, they should.

But your cpu changes for cal assault...need looking at.

Put a basic cpu mod on the proto cal assault and others, get that cpu and make that number its base cpu...

Or both

But cpu first, as if the slots get changed we can't fit anything.

Basic and enhanced mods on proto suit...nope needs more buffing.

CCP Rattati, I am hearing from someone that the proposed assault slot changes are cancelled, is this true? I hope its not.

I have to say, these changes make me mostly quite happy--the only thing I don't like is the possibility of the Amarr logi losing its sidearm, but I do agree there's a good rationale behind such a move. Other than that, though, it's all positive, and I only have a few things I'd like to mention:

1. The CalAss/MinAss slot layout switch is awesome--thanks for listening to the community.

I went ahead and included the slot layout changes to the 'Hotfix Charlie' dropsuits in protofits, these suits also have the proposed changes to PG/CPU.

Regards

And we are back.

TLDR;
Charlie: New slot layout adopted for Sentinels and Assaults, with corresponding PG/CPU adaptations plus PG/CPU buff for Assaults and reduction for Sentinels. Universal slot layout matrix for Caldari changed from 4-1 to 3-2.

Now, based on your consolidated feedback,

The standardized slot layout matrix was pretty well received, yet overall there were the following worries:

1)Caldari Scouts not having 2 low slots at ADV, so couldnGÇÿt effectively dampen like the other three scouts
a.Scouts will be standardized and revised in Delta using the matrix.
b.Therefore, no changes to Scouts in Charlie, but KinCat, CodeBreaker and Nova Knife PG reduced so Minmatar will be able to fit with abandon.

2)Caldari Sentinels not having 2 low slots at PRO, so canGÇÿt fit an armor rep and regulator (for example)
a.Easy fix to this is to change the matrix to 3-2 instead of 4-1 for Caldari 5 slots.
b.Sentinel slots need to be changed in Charlie with corresponding PG/CPU changes.
c.Sentinels then get a fitting bonus to Heavy weapons and a moderate reduction of PG/CPU in Charlie.

3)Logistics, Amarr side arm and Caldari low slot at PRO
a.Our proposal is to give both the sidearm at the cost of a single slot, not two as in the case of the Amarr. The Caldari will trade a low slot for the sidearm and the Amarr will trade an equipment slot for the sidearm. Not until Delta though.

4)Logistics, Gallente and Caldari STD and ADV to have equal total slot count as other Logistics
a. These are scheduled for Delta as well as PG/CPU revisions if necessary.

5)Commandos
a.No changes in Charlie, new layout according to matrix in Delta and corresponding tweaks of PG/CPU.

6)Assault
a.Very few grievances, if at all, with the new the new Assault suit layout, so will be adopted fully in Charlie
b.Assault will move to a 4-6-8 layout of slots, gaining one high/low slot at both ADV and PRO. This standardizes Mediums and gives Assault a huge boost towards being a viable options in competitive surroundings.
c.Assault will also get the same fitting bonus to Grenades.
d.Assault will be getting a considerable buff to PG/CPU, shield tanking will be addressed but we are also looking at bringing energizers and rechargers down and trading for a small PG increase in Delta
e. Assault will gain 150 ehp.


Please give us feedback on this, and this time please stay on topic. Thanks.

And looking at the assault buff, I'm now a bit worried about commandos. With 8 slots and 150 extra EHP, assaults can easily become harder to kill than commandos while taking 2 damage mods to compensate commandos natural bonus.

Here is what I get with caldari assault and commando (buffing the HP as much as possible while keeping one complex armour repairer for the commando) :
The commando
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/903/3167

The assault
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/903/5674

Now add 150 eHP to the assault and one complex armour plate, the assault has the same damage output, slightly more eHP, the same reload speed, better shield recharge delay and rate, better scan profile and precision, a better stamina and is faster than the commando.

We would rather cut the ehp buff than the additional slots, we feel it underlines the versatility aspect of the assault, spec for the situation.

I don't say that's the way I want to fit those two classes, it was just an example to show that the assault can beat the commando at nearly everything. In my example, the only advantage the commando has is the two light weapons, which isn't much better than the light+sidearm+grenades of the assault. About the damage mods, you don't add them, but multiply them so in the example I gave, the assault has a DPS of 491 and the commando 493, so the same.
I also think that commandos are supposed to get max damage (my minmatar commando has only damage mods on the left), but in that case, they're much more fragile than assaults who are medium suits, and that's what shocks me as the commando is still a heavy.

Your fits really give different roles to the commando and to the assault because it's the way Caldari are supposed to be played, but if you take Amarr suits, it's completely different as both will rely on a high armour. In this case, the commando is beaten everywhere because the assault can get nearly the same damage with his 3 high slots and he has the nice overheat bonus which is much more useful than reload speed for laser weaponry. Here you can do whatever you want with the commando, the assault can do the same or even better

Assaults need both just now. Would of been nice to see new racial bonus like gallante with increased rate of fire for example.
Or something new added because lets admitt scout's are everywhere fotm and needs changing Asap, dont think these changes that are announced will change that.

would rather know where you are on the field than have the 150EHP.

A scout will still be able to see you, and at range. You wont. A big benefit in an FPS

Buffing ehp will be the final decision, but if new slot theory crafting suggests it will be too much, then we can happily reconsider.

Best way of making Commando irrelevant.

And a bigger Hitbox
And slower movement

My 2 ISK would be to hold off on a decision on the EHP buff 'till Delta. You'll want to see what the new slots do first.

Too many rule changes overlapping each other, and going live at once, can cloud devs/players understanding of how the new changes are affecting the game.
Much can be figured out from theory-crafting, but ultimately you'll need see mechanics in action to figure out where you are.

/2 ISK

Still waiting for cal assault base rep rate buff...

Cal assault ck.0 is missing a low slot on proto fits.
.

And ccp, may I suggest buffing base rep rate of cal assault shields to 35, or 45, and it'd be nice if the cal assault got a garunteed 50 hp buff.

If that was directed at me....

I've been minmatar assault exclusively since 1.0. I currently use my assault in extremely competitive PC matches. I know assault, I know shield tanking.

The reason I say hp buff is not needed is because I usually run my min commando at around 850 to 900 eHP. With slot and capacity changes to assaults my min assault can almost reach this while having better speed, hit box, regen, and stamina. Commandos should have more HP than assaults IMO. The HP buff would make commandos completely useless (if they are not already).

^killer, how is that balanced?

Sounds like you're just biased towards Caldari Assault. Look you keep coming back to this "minmatar is better because this and that module"

So I'll lay it out for you..

Minmatar gains.
Kincat basic
Cardiac regulator (erm not sure)
Ferroscale (only 15 hp actually so like half a basic)
Strafe speed... OK.

Caldari gains
Shield extender (between ADV and pro)
Basic recharger
Basic regulator (or something)

It's already balanced!!!!! Can someone please back me up on this.

Edit: if I were useless, they'd stop putting me in. I know for a fact that with the changes, I personally will be OP. How? Because I can fit my logi as if it were an assault and wreck face. Now you're saying I can do that same fit with my assault while having more speed, stamina, strafe, regen, and a sidearm. Seriously watch out. WE don't need the HP buff. I think it might tip the FOTM scale to assaults.

He runs cal assault.

Just another neckbeard, ignore it.

Probably not a good idea to put it into proto, players can add that manually.

Using the current ehp split, would look like this at 150 ehp, again, to be re-evaluated based on community feedback.

ArmorShield
AM 100 50
CA 55 95
GA 95 55
MM 71 79

An 8th slot doesn't underline versatility, it removes the necessity of choice in suit building, further enables, nay, encourages dual tanking and destroys the lore-appropriate racial alignments the 7-slot reworking was intended to give us. You have to make people make choices, or they'll go the easy route every time. See every FotM ever for evidence. There WILL be 1200+ HP Proto Assaults stomping Pubs (which, btw, will further marginalize Laser weaponry). The Amarr at 3-5 will be able hit 1300 and carry a Boundless CR BEFORE the additional 150 HP buff, and Gal won't be too far behind with greater mobility and built-in reps. Toss in a logi friend and the Assaults are now into Sentinel territory. Even if a suit decides to give up a primary tank slot for a non-HP mod, the additional secondary tank slot makes compensating for it that much easier, making the decision less meaningful. Cut the slot. Make choices matter.

Surely trading a slot for 150 ehp is less tanking in theory, seeing as one slot is at max 135 hp. And those who don't want hp can pick something else, so more choice, right?

If assault become the new FOTM, we will be monitoring the situation, but right now it's everything but the assault. Reiterating, that the ehp is completely up for discussion, let's wait for some protofit FOTM examples that make all other suits useless

@ killer, again....

Yes I use min assault in every PC. Sometimes I switch to my logi to drop links and whatnot. The min assault is my only proto suit (15 mil sp in weaponry lol )

I belive this fit (the one quoted above) outclasses the Caldari 'assault scout' even before the HP buff. It has much higher regen and more eHP (much more if you try to match cal scouts base regen). Plus with the bonus change for cal scouts it's unlikely we will see many 450 shield ones running amok because they will get slaughtered by other scouts. Which is good.

I'm warning you guys, the HP buff might be over the top. Really the last thing I want to be is OP or FOTM, considering how long I've stuck with my suit, through thick and thin (mostly thin...).

I know everyone hates dual tanking cause its dual tanking and all, but here's a potential pub stomping min assault fit, including the potential HP buff..

~470 shield @ 40 hp/s with delay of 3.5/6
~400 armor @ 10 hp/s
Sprint speed around 8.3 m/s and proto weapon.

That's pretty scarey. Certainly outclasses the proto min commando.

Yes. I know. I used the quoted text as a reference, that's all. .

Sorry for cluttering the thread. I will leave... For now.

I think eHP should have higher priority than slots since it applies to all tiers, while the extra slots are only applied to specific tiers. Also more slots lead to higher cost of fittings.

The problem is that an extra slot is unnecessary when assaults are already getting +150 HP, and basically turns assaults into heavies. My earlier post illustrates this point with some HP calculations.

All the things you listed are great, but not the 8th slot at proto.

Anyway, if either the 8th slot, or the HP had to go, I say that the HP should definitely stay while the 8th slot should definitely go. The slot raises the gap between standard and proto even higher (bad), while the HP buff would effect all tiers equally (which is good).

Please stop crying. You are ridiculous. Surely, all scouts and heavies... I always played my UP Caldari assault or logi. Now let us try new layouts and ehp before crying. Never seen posts like these when scouts and heavies got OP BUFF. So, please stop crying.

Yeah the balance between shields and armor is pretty close IMHO (perhaps a slight edge to armor, shield energizer/recharger buff in the works though).

I think Rattati should just slowly increase all hp module capacity costs until fits diversify a bit.

As soon as I get something to put in high slots that doesn't suck.

So, I'm confused.
Are Assaults getting the extra HP or not?

We just buffed Reactives and Ferroscales, why would they be included? Brick tanking means maximum hp, and those two have less than half the hp as the Armor Plates.

I think we aren't getting a buff to base ehp anymore. I'm basing that on the extra slot all assault suits may get. Personally, I'd rather have the ehp increase and let the Logis have the most highs and lows.