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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 43 post(s) |
ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3083
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Posted - 2014.07.09 23:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
Remove the sidearm from the only proto suit i've been able to afford and that pretty much seals the deal for me to never return to Dust.
I understand the idea of normalizing the slot layouts but I feel its the wrong way to go personally. The sidearm on the Amarr Logi is what made that suit fun. Having experienced having a sidearm and 3 equipment I could never go back to only having a single weapon.
I honestly can't see a reason why you would run a logistics suit over a scout unless you want to run a minmatar medic suit.
Amarr logi bridged the gap between minmatar medic and scout-logis. If you look at the numbers, something tells me the Amarr and Minmater logi suits probably greatly outnumber the caldari and gallente logis now. Its not hard to imagine why that might be, uplinks and rep tools are by far the most useful equipments available.
I would love to see the number on logi sutis in general, in pubs there are enough WP farmers running rep tools to keep the numbers high but in general they are becoming rather underpowered in general.
With scouts and heavies the way they are after 1.7 and 1.8 it seems that straight buffs to the medium suits make more sense to me. imho... adding a sidearm to caldari and doing a slot normalization that way makes much more sense. You have caldari and amarr as 'combat logi' suits with bonuses more oriented towards being near the frontline (uplinks and ammo) while minmatar and gallente logis would be more inclined to focus on their 'active equipment' using rep tools and scanners more in general and not being so inclined to need a sidearm. |
ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3087
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Posted - 2014.07.10 12:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The A-logi is the only one that has this unique layout. Where is the call for a grenade commando, or a sidearm heavy. Being unique is not reason enough, nor is a swarm - sidearm logi a necessity for intricate game balance.
The plan is to make logis better at what they do with good module efficacy bonuses.
I'm reposting this from another thread in hopes that either your or Logibro will read it.
You guys need to stop and ask yourselves what the role of the Caldari and Amarr logistics is on the field. They both drop passive equipment, and once that is done (literally takes about 1-2s to drop an uplink or nanohive) what is supposed to be their purpose on the battlefield?
If you think all logis should then pull out their rep tool and start repairing, then why would anyone run anything but Minmatar Logi? Simply for aesthetics? If a logi suit is supposed to spend the majority of their time repping, then there is almost no reason for any other logi suit to exist than the min logi, because it is specifically bonused for that.
The Minmatar and Gallente logi suits are centered around active equipment, that is, equipment you spend most of your time using. The Caldari and Amarr logi suits are centered around passive equipment, which leaves them free to pursue other non logistics tasks like slaying. This also makes sense as both of these passive equipment are meant to be more around the frontline, the Caldari and Amarr Logi need their combat efficacy to protect their passive equipment.
You need to think about each suits role on the field and how to better reinforce that idea.
Gallente/Minmatar
Active Equipment
High Mobility
Low combat efficiency
High Logistics efficiency
Amarr/Caldari
Passive equipment
Low mobility
Moderate combat efficiency
Low logistics efficiency
If you remove the sidearm on Amarr logi and give them a 4th equip slot, they just become a poor copy of the Min/Gal suits. They still have low logistics efficacy because their bonuses are not designed for logistics efficiency.
If you serious about type-II versions. Then you need to completely rethink the bonuses so that the high logistics efficiency variant has a bonus to active equipment and the combat efficiency variant has a bonus to passive equipment to better reinforce the role of each suit.
You would essentially need to make a set of medic suits centered entirely around the nanite injector and rep tool. While the combat version would be around passive equipment like hives and links. Every suit would have close to the same bonus, and the flavor would come from the slot layout. You could give the combat logi a L/S and the medic an S or S/S setup and boost the speed and hp of the medic up substantially to reinforce the role that they should be running around repping and reviving.
If you move forward with this as it is though, you will essentially render the non-Minmatar logi suits obsolete. |
ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3092
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 15:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:I am actually considering your proposal of adding a sidearm to Caldari logis, changing one of the high/low slots to sidearm.
The only point I wanted to get across is to make sure that the roles are defined. Hopefully I don't come across as too hostile, I know I have a tendency to. As long as you're talking about and considering it, and have a clear objective for the role you wish each suit to fulfill, whether or not its what I want, then its good enough for me.
Much respect Rattati o7 |
ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3097
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 10:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jadd Hatchen wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:I am actually considering your proposal of adding a sidearm to Caldari logis, changing one of the high/low slots to sidearm. {snip} So (for example): 8 modules + 4 equip + L + nade for Gallente/Minmatar and: 7 Modules + 3 equip + L/S + nade for Amarr/Caldari Okay this is WRONG! As now the FW for the Amarr/Caldari side would be the only side with the slayer capable logis and the Gal/Min side would suffer horribly for it in FW battles. IF you do this (and I highly recommend that you don't), then it needs to be the Minmatar and NOT the Caldari that receive the extra sidearm slot!!!!
Would you really want to give up one of your equipment slots and a module slot on the min logi for a sidearm? I predict community outrage at that change. Min Logi, with its rep bonus is one of the most powerful logistics suits in the game. I suspect the numbers for Min Logi already greatly outnumber the other logi suits.
Faction warfare? I see your point but FW is not limited to racial suits and should never be limited in that way. Even if it was, what you're describing is called asymmetric warfare and its not inherently bad when balanced correctly. |
ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3097
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 11:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
I've been reading a lot of comments about cross racial bonuses. This isn't an inherently bad idea, but if we really want to do that, I think it would be best to go all out and make a type I and type II suit otherwise you're just falltening the diversity in all logi suits, and when that happens we revert back to early Uprising when logi suits did not have equipment based bonuses. The community finds the most combat capable suit and spams it ad naseum. I feel like that is a step back more than a step forward.
If anything, I personally feel that unbonused prototype equipment is already quite powerful as it is and it is not necessary to have additional global bonuses to all of it. The singular bonus each race gets is truly its own distinction. If everyone else got half of the min bonus to rep tools, I honestly believe it would probably cause the min logi to become irrelevant, as higher EHP is attainable on other suits and half of the rep bonus is not enough to really make the min logi unique.
An easy solution to the global bonus problem, which doesn't require the addition and testing of half measure racial bonuses is to buff the global logi fitting bonus to 15% per level. This would further reinforce that higher tier equipment is desirable and make the cost of upgrading from std to pro on any single piece of equipment relatively small. Of course another big issue with proto equipment is its isk cost, its fairly substantial to deck out a proto logi suit in proto modules and proto equipment.
A reduction in the cost of adv and pro equipment would encourage the use of higher tier equipment on all logi suits, thus increasing the overall quality of equipment logis would bring to the field, without having to create potentially broken bonuses or risk making certain prototype equipment overpowered with the creation of additional bonuses. This cost reduction would probably need to be on the order of 33-50%, I would say a cost curve of 5k - 7k - 12k for std - adv - pro would be just about right, a full set of 4 proto equip should be approximately 50k, about the same as a basic prototype weapon.
The increase to a global fitting bonus also requires a rebalance of CPU/PG on each suit as well. I think that its perfectly fine though, the logi suits need a module count and fitting rework in general anyways (hence what has sparked this discussion). |
ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3097
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 14:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:
Excellent ideas. Back when all the fools were asking for sidearm only logis I had counter-proposed a similarly huge reduction with a proportionate reduction in the fitting power of the suit. It's so far back I'm having trouble finding a link, but I did at least so e of the math.. I'll have to look again later.
@hatchen: I'm not sure what you are talking about, exactly, but neither of the biggest offenders in the uprising kill logi days had sidearms. (Those being gallente and Caldari) They were OP because of the massive tank they could fit while simultaneously having inherent 5hp/s armor reps and having the fitting power to not sacrifice anything else, like a proto weapon, core locus nades, and triage hives. Sidearms had nothing to do with it.
All I meant with the spam ad nauseum post was that, if we flatten the bonus differential between suits, then the most popular logi suit just becomes the one with the most EHP and will be the spammed/fotm logi suit. It doesn't necessarily refer to logis themselves being fotm, but I think it was quite clear back in early uprising that the cal logi was probably used far more than any other logi suit because it could do the same tasks (logi wise) as most other logis but it could also fit a massive tank on top of it. The other bonuses couldn't compare to a cal logi with shield extender bonus, it was by far the most powerful in terms of non-logi tasks.
Making all logis have 4 equipments and cross bonuses just flattens the playing field. Once again the most desired logi becomes the one that is most combat capable... which, with low move speed and no sidearm means the one with the most theoretical EHP. I would place my money on Gallente being the most desired logi if these changes some of the CPM1 candidates are pushing would go into place. You would find a small group of niche players that are okay with the slight bonus to rep tools min logis get, and shield users favoring caldari. Then a few Amarr only RP players using Amarr Logi... the rest would spam Gallente as it has the highest EHP and virtually the same logistics potential.
This is the reason why I'm saying go one way or the other. Split us into 2/2 combat/pure logistics where two have 3 equip and a sidearm. Or split the logistics group entirely into Medic and Combat Logistics. Give all Medics the same bonus (rep tools and nanite injectors) and create a separate suit, the 'Combat Logistics' for deployable equipment (Nanohives and Uplinks). At that point, the scanner becomes neutral with no bonus, making it equally viable for scouts and logi suits. The scanner would likely require a buff to bring it back into parity. With a system like this, the racial differential is purely for flavor and that's it.
i just don't think Logistics require THAT much change (Splitting it into separate suit types). But if we start 'normalizing' logistics suits we stand to ruin the fragile balance that has already been achieved as it is. |
ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dark Taboo
3099
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 15:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kick reduction for Caldari Assault would do wonders for that class imo. The ARR kicks like a fiend, the MSMG does too.
If the standard RR is still too powerful as a weapon in general, a slight kick increase could help balance it while making the cal assault even more viable.
The Amarr is still one of the few suits with a desirable benefit, and I think it should stay that way.
The Min Assault has a solid bonus for the CR, I've not heard much complaints and as someone who has used the CR I feel that would remain a desirable bonus.
Now... the assault rifle... as a long long time user of the assault rifle, you know which weapon is probably the most fun I have ever had the pleasure of using in Dust? The Balac's AR... omg what a downright amazing weapon.
A RoF bonus to the Gallente Assault could make that just right. RoF is king of CQC, and the AR would be much better at CQC with it. The concern here of course is that it could make the suit overpowered, as RoF is a DPS increase.... hm...
Its a bit complex but increasing RoF on the AR while increasing Clip/Ammo Capacity and Deceasing damage so that DPS remains close to the same is a possibility for making the Gal Assault unique and not making it overpowered.
Another possibility would be to make a new Plasma Rifle variant (I know... confusing) with the same kind of stats as a Balac's... give it insanely high PG/CPU like the Cloak and give Gal Assault a specific fitting bonus for it.
I do think the weapon fitting reduction assault bonus is a tad bit underwhelming myself, a straight increase to PG and CPU makes more sense, freeing up the Assault bonus to be something more interesting. |
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