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Hawkings Greenback
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Posted - 2014.07.10 00:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:All,
. . . stuff
As a logi I would like to add my opinion to this conversation. Before I continue I apologise because it seems like I have more questions than feedback 
Not sure why the need for a speed reduction when even with an enhanced kincat on an ADV Min logi suit i can struggle to keep up ( some ) heavies. On this basis are you looking to reduce the speed on the heavies as well ? Isn't a logis role to support the battlefield ? How am i supposed to do that if I can't keep up with the battlefield ? I have spent SP into being able to run & fit kincats to allow me to be more mobile because the logi always seems to slow. Oh and before anyone says anything about stacking tank mods, I always look to get a balance between the best equipment I can fit then look at the best tank I can run. I like my logi to be mobile not a static WP pinata winnebago lumbering around the battlefield.
Is the 'standardisation' of logi equipment slots a way of justifying why scouts have 2 equipment slots ? I do understand the need to balance slot layout between the races but I have never felt that the Amarr logi suffered unduly by having 1 less module slot & gaining the sidearm slot. A lot of people were sold on the idea of a 'combat' logi, especially me. Place the uplinks & defend the area. Or push & attack & move the front line up with uplinks, then defend them. i don't know, I feel as if I play a different game to the one CCP sees sometimes.
Cloak bonus, meh I could care less. I can't do anything cloaked. I wouldn't loose sleep over some one running a crazy speed damped cloak shotgun logi, not when scouts can do that much better already.
WP for injectors, brilliant & about time. I love the scaling with SP investment & cost. 
I also hope you look at the option of choosing whether to be revived once a player is downed also. Maybe to reduce the spam a bit more is too reduce the initial WP reward for a rez & have bonus WP reward if the rez'd player stays alive for a period of time. I am pretty sure this was suggested a long time ago.
Like other people have said I believe the reason there are more logi s than assualt players is for a number of reasons. Firstly assaults are generally out done by every other suit class. Scouts have more going for them than assualts, speed, regen, ewar, cloak not to mention the smaller hitbox &, 2 yes two equipment slots. Then there are the heavies, raw HP, resists & the heavy combat rifle ( sorry  ) heavy machine gun. Not forgetting the Min & Cal that can move as fast as an assault ( with mods of course ). Next we have the logi s who roam the battle field repping, reviving, getting spawn pads down & scanning AS well as being able to kill stuff.
Your current proposal to increase the HP just further adds to a battlefield that is probably 50%+ obsessed with trying to cram as much HP onto a suit as possible. Make use of the other modules in game like shield rechargers / energizers & ferroscale / reactive plates. Get people using these to galvanise different playstyles.
Seems to me that the assault has no versatility or role & is outclassed by the other suits performing there given roles on the battlefield. Amarr assault seems to be the only suit that can hold its hand up & says it can do well. Please consider the assault changes first & then go back & look at logi, if you truly believe that they are an issue. My personal belief is that anyone who was previously an assault went to scout because they are better at the assault role.
Not sure about the codebreaker to high slots as I've only just started using the min scout ( hard to fit at ADV  ) I will leave that to people who have a better understanding than me.
The rest looks ok, however it is getting late so I may have missed something.
Hope the above makes some sort of sense, time for sleep & I will have another look tomorrow. Keep up the good work. 
GÇ£Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.GÇ¥
GÇò Frank Zappa
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Hawkings Greenback
Red Star.
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158
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Posted - 2014.07.10 07:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:ratamaq doc wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Look at it this way.
If I give all assaults +1 equipment slot; where does that put the amarr logi??? With 1 extra equipment slots and still with a sidearm? Look Tron, give up, your support for this change is non existent with the exception of CCP Ratt for some reason. Adding to this point. Lets pretend that all days before day Logistics Class never existed in Dust 514. And for hotfix charlie we're bringing them in.
Cool, so you won't mind refunding my logi SP's then if they never existed.
GÇ£Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.GÇ¥
GÇò Frank Zappa
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Hawkings Greenback
Red Star.
EoN.
158
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Posted - 2014.07.10 08:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Hawkings Greenback wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:ratamaq doc wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Look at it this way.
If I give all assaults +1 equipment slot; where does that put the amarr logi??? With 1 extra equipment slots and still with a sidearm? Look Tron, give up, your support for this change is non existent with the exception of CCP Ratt for some reason. Adding to this point. Lets pretend that all days before day Logistics Class never existed in Dust 514. And for hotfix charlie we're bringing them in. Cool, so you won't mind refunding my logi SP's then if they never existed. If resources allow I wouldn't mind asking for it; but like I said if only resources allowed...
Seriously IWS, I don't understand the logic in changing the speed of my logi suits. All I am hearing is that no body uses assault suits, logi gets used more than assault lets change the logi suit. If you look at the battlefield the majority of matches I play consist of heavy & light frames. Logi's are popular because of the boon of heavies & the WP pinata they are.
I would rather keep my logi as is than to become slower because then I will have to loose more tank to gain extra speed. Logi's are already bright yellow bullseyes to a half decent squad.
Buff assaults first, THEN if it still an issue look at the other suits. Every other suit except logi stands on assaults toes, so why the logi changes ?
If I do get my SP refunded, where am I going to go IWS ? Assault, not in its current state or even with those proposed bunus.
I'll go scout, whats not to like about speed, regen, ewar, an ability to engage & disengage at will and a smaller hitbox. Oh & I get 2 equipment slots so I can still use a rep tool, links & hives ( scanners, meh, scout are walking scanners ).
I love what CCP Rata tat tat ( sry couldn't help it dude ) has been doing & even what is happening with Hotfix Charlie. Yet these logi changes come out of the left field. Please explain to me how this conclusion was reached so I can better understand.
GÇ£Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.GÇ¥
GÇò Frank Zappa
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Hawkings Greenback
Red Star.
EoN.
159
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Posted - 2014.07.10 09:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The speed changes are to differentiate better between Assault and Logis. The slowest Logis would still of course move faster than the fastest heavy, something like +0.05 on the Assault or -0.05 on the Logi. So if that's the biggest worry, we have no problem in only buffing the Assault speed.
This is not the biggest worry & neither have I said such. I am having trouble comprehending 'why ?' for any of the logi changes. If this:
CCP Rattati wrote:The speed changes are to differentiate better between Assault and Logis.
is the only reason, then it is a poor one. Again give the assault bonus a look at PROPERLY as opposed to half arsing it & screwing with logi's which I think are in an ok position, ( the Caldari logi is one I don't see often tbh )
My main points :
Assault bonus aren't desirable, otherwise you would see them more often.
Assaults have no niche, ALL suits tread on assault suits territory.
Amarr side arm slot loss, it was touted as a combat logi ( same as the scout suit ). I like the fact that it can be aggressive & can look after itself.
Logi slot homogenisation, just have one logi suit if they are all to be the same.
Reduced logi speed, the battlefield is a much more dynamic / fast / fluid place. As a logi I have to be able to keep up. I am no use to anyone if I am coming in behind everyone else & then got SG'd in the bank by flanking scouts.
More logis than assaults, well sorry, but duh !! Assault suit bonus, the ever increasing population of heavy suits & the fact that logi can fulfill a role on the battlefield is not the logi suits fault. Also heavy & scout are BETTER than an assault. So why run an assault suit ?
I am not trying to be horrible but I still have not had a valid reason why logi should bear the responsibility to make assaults look a better option. Seriously NO ONE has explained why apart from :
There are more logis than assaults, there are more anything than assault suits on the field.
The logi shouldn't move as fast as an assault, I know heavies that move faster than logis so logic should dictate that heavies need a speed nerf, yes ? ( not actually wanting a heavy speed nerf )
No other logi has a side arm, but it looses a slot to negate that.
Again sorry if it appears like ranting, need coffee
GÇ£Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.GÇ¥
GÇò Frank Zappa
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Hawkings Greenback
Red Star.
EoN.
159
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Posted - 2014.07.10 09:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
NanoCleric wrote:Cat Merc wrote:NanoCleric wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:The speed changes are to differentiate better between Assault and Logis. The slowest Logis would still of course move faster than the fastest heavy, something like +0.05 on the Assault or -0.05 on the Logi. So if that's the biggest worry, we have no problem in only buffing the Assault speed. As i already said.. i am 'always' getting outrun by heavies when i'm playing as my Gal Logi with the armor plates with no movement penalty.. ferroscale if i remember right. So something else is going on there if your stats don't show that's the case... Do some internal testing. If i use the basic armour plates of any tier.. then i am constantly losing my link to heavies and having to sprint to keep up with them a lot. *Pops head out* Heavies only need one kin cat to outrun logis. And that's not because Logis are too slow, it's because Heavies are too fast. 900DPS + 1500HP should not run at 6.5m/s~ -_- ^^ That'll be why then, thanks for pointing that out Cat. Kinda crap to think the only way to combat this then would be to have to use one ourselves too...
I use a kin cat on my minnie logi for that reason, have done for a while. Well ever since heavy racial parity & heavies found that they can move fast, still have a good HP pool & destroy people with the HMG. 
GÇ£Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.GÇ¥
GÇò Frank Zappa
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Hawkings Greenback
Red Star.
EoN.
159
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Posted - 2014.07.10 09:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Rattati, sorry I missed where you said the speed change probably won't happen : (
And no I do not like the change of the side arm slot to an EQ, high or low slot. I would be happy to keep the side arm. My bonus is for uplinks which only works when I am alive & in a an Amarr logi suit. So I would like to stay alive long enough to do that, which may mean I need to use my side arm.
GÇ£Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.GÇ¥
GÇò Frank Zappa
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Hawkings Greenback
Red Star.
EoN.
159
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Posted - 2014.07.10 09:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:A small idea I had.
How about increasing light weapon fitting requirements by 35%, and giving Assaults/Commandos a corresponding fitting reduction?
Sidearms become a low CPU/PG option for non slayer suits, Heavies will be less likely to use those with the CPU/PG reduction and Heavy weapon fitting bonuses.
This makes Sidearm vs Light weapon an actual choice, rather than some fun fitting you run once in a while.
Non slayer suits that want the same slaying power would have to do sacrifices, just like non scouts trying to fit cloaks.
This makes sense. At the moment I don't have to sacrifice much to fit a weapon. Make the fitting skills worth skilling into for other suits
GÇ£Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.GÇ¥
GÇò Frank Zappa
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Hawkings Greenback
Red Star.
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159
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Posted - 2014.07.10 11:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
RKKR wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:The speed changes are to differentiate better between Assault and Logis. You are not differentiating anything, you are making the logi even more crap at it's intended role than it already is just to make one suit more viable again. Good luck with differentiating between Assault and scouts in the next hot fix.
CCP Rattati wrote:
To recap, you don't like the speed change, that I have already said probably won't happen, and the changing of 1 sidearm to an EQ and a high/or low slot on the A-logi?
I got this response earlier.
GÇ£Their stupidity does not amaze me, its when they're smart that amazes me."
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Hawkings Greenback
Red Star.
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Posted - 2014.07.10 11:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Changes made to OP, logi speed not reduced plus some clarificications.
Thank You.
Is the intent of removing the Amarr logi sidearm to bring all logis in line as merely water carriers for equipment & a support role on the battlefield ?
Why the sudden need to change the Amarr logi, is it to bring it in-line with a defined view of the logi for Legion ?
GÇ£Their stupidity does not amaze me, its when they're smart that amazes me."
GÇò Frank Zappa
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Hawkings Greenback
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Posted - 2014.07.10 11:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:A selling point on logi equipment balance at PRO. If passive scans are removed, then it will be the logi's job to scan. Getting that extra scanner at PRO for the amarr and caldari will be helpful.
That still doesn't make loosing a side arm slot any easier if I have to now go & save SP for proto scanners.
GÇ£Their stupidity does not amaze me, its when they're smart that amazes me."
GÇò Frank Zappa
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Hawkings Greenback
Red Star.
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Posted - 2014.07.10 12:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Hawkings Greenback wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:A selling point on logi equipment balance at PRO. If passive scans are removed, then it will be the logi's job to scan. Getting that extra scanner at PRO for the amarr and caldari will be helpful. That still doesn't make loosing a side arm slot any easier if I have to now go & save SP for proto scanners. This isn't an argument in favor of the logi suit being balanced for a logi role. If your complaint is that "my SP I spent on weapon effectivness now makes my logi less effective as a logi" isn't really valid. The point of the tweak is to make logis play their logi/support role, and assaults be worthwhile in their niche.
Not sure how I am not playing my role as a logi if I have a side arm & use it. Removing the side arm slot DOES NOT in any way help a set of suits with poorly conceived bonus. Also if the the assault suits were any good then more people would use them. The fact that people would prefer to go scout, heavy or even logi says a lot about the assault suit not the others.
Besides, as I have pointed out, my link bonus does not work when I am dead. So I try & ensure I stay alive long enough to protect the links & myself to allow the bonus to work & for people to return to the battlefield quicker.
This is not a discussion for me about OHNOESMYSIDARMISUSELESSNOW, it is a point about why is there a need to remove it in the first place. Its not going to magically make assaults better & I certainly don't see hordes of Amarr logis roaming the battlefield killing all in sight. The sidearm is useful, for me. I like it. It saves my life ( though not always  ).
GÇ£Their stupidity does not amaze me, its when they're smart that amazes me."
GÇò Frank Zappa
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Hawkings Greenback
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Posted - 2014.07.10 12:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
@Beren
It depends on what role you want to play. I like the support role. If the bonus were good enough for assault I'm sure people would pick them. I don't see how a figure stating that there are more logi's than assault equates into re arrangement of logi slot layout to help assaults. Especially as there are posts in the forum specifically stating that assault bonus are not great, as seen by the fact that very few run them I game.
If CCP changed the assault bonus first AND then went back to review the logi situation at a later date it would make me a little happier.
At the moment the logic behind the changes is a little muddy for me.
GÇ£Their stupidity does not amaze me, its when they're smart that amazes me."
GÇò Frank Zappa
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Hawkings Greenback
Red Star.
EoN.
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Posted - 2014.07.10 15:18:00 -
[13] - Quote
Poonmunch wrote:Where the hell was this Rattati guy a year ago when the game needed him?
Thank god he's here now.
Munch
Yes indeed, not only that but at least he is listening to the feedback given
GÇ£Their stupidity does not amaze me, its when they're smart that amazes me."
GÇò Frank Zappa
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Hawkings Greenback
Red Star.
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Posted - 2014.07.18 13:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:Every comment i read, it is : more hp,more hp, give us more hp!
You want hp? Go for heavy. Your logis already have 800+ehp, assaults needs bonuses,regen not again HP.
If you need heavys hp to med frame, youre bad.
My logi does not roll with 800+ ehp & I suspect many others do not either. Have you ever tried to keep up with a heavy when you are plated upto the eyeballs ?
I have seen scouts with more hp than I have so please ( not just you ) stop generalising.
It is a simple concept really, make the assault suits better. The hard part is doing that without making all other classes useless.
GÇ£Their stupidity does not amaze me, its when they're smart that amazes me."
GÇò Frank Zappa
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Hawkings Greenback
Red Star.
EoN.
185
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Posted - 2014.07.18 16:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
Deathonswift wrote:Hawkings Greenback wrote:My logi does not roll with 800+ ehp & I suspect many others do not either. Have you ever tried to keep up with a heavy when you are plated upto the eyeballs ?  Ferroscale... If you're getting still getting shot up too quickly you're using the wrong logistics suit. Each suit has a stat tendency for different situations.
Of course ferroscale.
Why would I be using the wrong suit if I am getting shot up too quickly ?
GÇ£Their stupidity does not amaze me, its when they're smart that amazes me."
GÇò Frank Zappa
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