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[Video] Caldari Scout Hitbox Rumors

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Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6156	Posted - 2014.07.07 03:54:00 - [1] - Quote Kept hearing about it and finally just said to hell with it and decided to put it to the test in the best way I could think of. Had done a similar test (on the same map no less) a few months ago so, me and Zatara Rought decided to give it a shot using similar methods. Here's the five minute video test in 720p Testing Methods Both testers (myself and Zatara) were on the same team. This reduces constant damage dealing/death which gets in the way of progress and negatively impacts the team(s) more than necessary for testing purposes but still produces hit indicators (the 'x' that pops up when a shot hits it's target) reliably. This allowed for hit indicators to show when a round would hit, and shield flickers when a 'ghost hit' occurs. For running tests, nanohives were placed 20m apart to form a 'track' in which Zatara would run along to insure a relatively straight path while I fired on him. This method allows for differentiation of hitbox lag caused by latency and true hit detection errors caused by the hitbox. Testing Procedure Caldari and Gallente Scout suits were fired at whilst standing still to check for 'silhouette' type hit detection errors. These sort of errors occur when firing at the outside edge of the body and the hitbox doesn't match up with the model. Both were relatively fine with the Caldari Scout having a very microscopic margin of error around the head/limbs, but it's so minute that you would probably never notice it in combat. Caldari and Gallente Scout suits were fired at whilst running at a perpendicular angle. Most common factors here are hitbox lag which can occur from latency, I accounted for this at first (aiming behind Zatara) and there was very little to account for. There were quite a bit of 'ghost hits' in which the shields flickered but no hit marker was apparent, but this occurred on both suits. Caldari and Gallente Scout suits were fired at whilst running at a parallel angle. There was very little margin of error here and from what I saw, both suits would taken damage normally if it we were on opposite teams, with less 'ghost hits' than in the perpendicular test. Results/Thoughts Both the scouts showed quite a few 'ghost hits' but I feel this is largely due to the hitbox trying to keep up with the rapid movements of the Scout, as both showed evidence of 'ghost hits' in the perpendicular tests. There is a very minor issue with the hitbox on the Scout not aligning with the outer most edges of the model, but this is so miniscule you would not likely notice it in combat. Personally, I think this rumor stems from the fact that Caldari Scouts are reliant on shields and don't have enough low slots to utilize armor modules. This results in faster average movement speed compared to other scouts and even though the Minmatar Scout is technically faster, it has less survivability so hit detection issues, if any, would less noticeable in combat. Feedback/Differing Theories Feel like we botched something? Want to see it in slow-mo? Have a different idea on how to test for hit detection errors? Just wanna comment on Aeon's terrible [redacted] aim? Throw your suggestions in the comments below and we'll see about checking them out. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 26	Posted - 2014.07.07 03:58:00 - [2] - Quote I saw nothing wrong other than usual glitches with dust or the tar that is crap. My cal scout stiol gets instakilled It's fine, no matter how many videos you post it won't change the fact it's fine.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10701	Posted - 2014.07.07 04:01:00 - [3] - Quote The game definitely behaves differently when shooting at actual enemies. A proper test would include shooting at an enemy target. However, it does demonstrate that hit detection is screwy. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 3463	Posted - 2014.07.07 04:14:00 - [4] - Quote Should of been done in FW Its alright everyone, no need to worry it's just an Amarr scout :(
I-Shayz-I I----------I 3950	Posted - 2014.07.07 04:20:00 - [5] - Quote ugh The real reason for all this nonsense is the fact that shooting at a shield tanked enemy feels like you're dealing no damage since a smaller fraction of the "total" hp bar is actually being removed. For example, take these two drastically different suits: Caldari Scout 430 shield 80 armor Amarr Assault 150 shield 660 armor After dealing 150 damage to both suits, the Caldari's HP bar looks something like this: ___ _____ While the Amarr one looks like this: . _____ Now deal another 280 damage. The Caldari: . _____ And the Amarr: . __ 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution 991	Posted - 2014.07.07 04:33:00 - [6] - Quote Unless you're in FW or on the opposite team then none of this maters. All of the hit detection issues that occur have the shield flare and flinch animation happen even if they take no damage. The Amarr scout bonus is like the old Amarr sentinel bonus. No one needed 25% reduction to overheat damage on a heavy;_;
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 4069	Posted - 2014.07.07 04:35:00 - [7] - Quote This is exactly what I've been saying, although I don't have a capture card to run tests. CCP Rattati ily! AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5 CalLogi, you're next!
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6160	Posted - 2014.07.07 04:40:00 - [8] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Unless you're in FW or on the opposite team then none of this maters. All of the hit detection issues that occur have the shield flare and flinch animation happen even if they take no damage. Believe I mentioned that when describing 'ghost hits'. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
The Eristic Dust 90210 544	Posted - 2014.07.07 05:09:00 - [9] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Believe I mentioned that when describing 'ghost hits'. I dunno, this is how I'd describe a 'ghost hit'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvyCMgAajqk Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.
MINA Longstrike 972	Posted - 2014.07.07 05:44:00 - [10] - Quote You need to be on enemy teams - I've gotten shield flare all the time but no damage. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.

Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6161	Posted - 2014.07.07 06:25:00 - [11] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: You need to be on enemy teams - I've gotten shield flare all the time but no damage. Just finished recording a video where we are on enemy teams. Will upload it tomorrow. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 6377	Posted - 2014.07.07 06:27:00 - [12] - Quote Lol as if this is a proper test. see you space cowboy...
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6161	Posted - 2014.07.07 06:44:00 - [13] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Lol as if this is a proper test. You're welcome to suggest something of worthwhile value in place of criticism, just sayin' Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 2394	Posted - 2014.07.07 07:19:00 - [14] - Quote Try with a red, landing shots sometimes is not enough. PSN: ogamega I'm not a chef, i'm just a man who likes to cook.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 6378	Posted - 2014.07.07 07:21:00 - [15] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Lol as if this is a proper test. You're welcome to suggest something of worthwhile value in place of criticism, just sayin' Record in game instances with Caldari Scouts. Has to be real field data. see you space cowboy...
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 858	Posted - 2014.07.07 07:27:00 - [16] - Quote I can confirm false shield flares and no damage being done to the target. This test is junk. http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU Dust to Dust Remember the dream you had before the day you were born.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6161	Posted - 2014.07.07 07:37:00 - [17] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Lol as if this is a proper test. You're welcome to suggest something of worthwhile value in place of criticism, just sayin' Record in game instances with Caldari Scouts. Has to be real field data. Yeah, sorry, not going to record every single game. Unless you wanna pay for a new hard-drive and a fiber optic line that'll cover the constant uploads. Suppose we'll just never know and just have to believe the myth that Caldari Scouts are OP because hitbox conspiracy theories. /shrug Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
LT SHANKS Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2883	Posted - 2014.07.07 09:54:00 - [18] - Quote Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: I can confirm false shield flares and no damage being done to the target. This test is junk. I await the opposition test that you are making, as that will be far more effective at highlighting. You will need to use high ROF weapons, such as the HMG or Combat Rifle, and SMG to demonstrate failure to damage a fast target while it is crossing a bullet stream, which I have had happen many times. The single shot action weapons seem to have fewer problems at close range, and increased issues at long range, such as a scrambler pistol, or a sniper rifle. Aeon, do this test.
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 153	Posted - 2014.07.07 10:48:00 - [19] - Quote Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: I can confirm false shield flares and no damage being done to the target. This test is junk. I await the opposition test that you are making, as that will be far more effective at highlighting. You will need to use high ROF weapons, such as the HMG or Combat Rifle, and SMG to demonstrate failure to damage a fast target while it is crossing a bullet stream, which I have had happen many times. The single shot action weapons seem to have fewer problems at close range, and increased issues at long range, such as a scrambler pistol, or a sniper rifle. This seems like a better description of what is happening. Caldari scouts are getting stick because them & gallente scouts seem to be the most popular, therefore it seems to happen more often. If you are unable to capture this then maybe some one else can at a later date. GÇ£Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.GÇ¥ GÇò Frank Zappa
Knight Soiaire Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5364	Posted - 2014.07.07 11:04:00 - [20] - Quote All suits have hit detection issues, I've never come across a Caldari Scout that was harder to hit than any other Scouts. I'm free! /o/

Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3033	Posted - 2014.07.07 11:29:00 - [21] - Quote Very well done. I pretty much concur with findings, although I would say the hit box alignmemt is a bit more than a minor problem, that's a lot of potential headshots you could miss. As for your idea that it's more noticable on caldari scouts because of their higher speed, I would say that is most definitely plausible and that more needs to be done to ensure that hit detection on all scouts is better. +1 and more if I had any alts. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Sgt Buttscratch R 0 N 1 N 2131	Posted - 2014.07.07 11:34:00 - [22] - Quote Repeat the test with a player from Asia.... we had 3 rail rifles on one guy yesterday. He was from an asian corp doing a fast side to side movement and took zero damage. Give me my scrambler pistol back....**
Cody Sietz SVER True Blood Dark Taboo 3496	Posted - 2014.07.07 11:53:00 - [23] - Quote I know it seems like we're making this up, but we aren't! We have nothing to gain by saying this. If the hit detection is messed up for the CalScout, it should be fixed. If it isn't? Then it doesn't really matter because it's like we are asking for it to be nerfed. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2472	Posted - 2014.07.07 12:26:00 - [24] - Quote There is s slight problem with the testing and that is you are assuming the conclusion before the test. For proper testing you might need to step back one step. The Issue is an apprentice of bullets doing no damage. What causes no damage? By assuming it is hit detection we are jumping to conclusions. for example : 1) it could be that they are doing zero to very low damage. 2) It could be that shield regen is increased under fire. 3) it might be that high ROF bullet streams are counted as 1 bullet instead of 2 or 3 4) It might be that weapon efficiency is wrong 5 ) It might be that bullets actually add rather than reduce shields We need to collect field data . The very first step is to capture and identify that a hit definitely made contact and what happens, and then a hit that should have made contact; and what happened. The problems with some set up tests is that they do not recreate the conditions that cause the issue. IF its caused by the scouts shields taking damage from an explosive just before you shoot at it the test will never identify the issue. So I am afraid the most thorough way to do this is record lots of games and analyse the results, then identify an issue and only then try to decerne the cause. Judge for CPM 1 Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Knight Soiaire Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5365	Posted - 2014.07.07 12:41:00 - [25] - Quote Heres what I'd do differently. Do it again but on opposing teams, of course. But also, test with aim assist on, and aim assist off. I'm free! /o/
Sum1ne Else G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1247	Posted - 2014.07.07 12:53:00 - [26] - Quote Awesome, great job- you can really see those markers of when they do and do not. What is your X & Y in ADS at? you track him really well.. Impressive? Longest PLC Kill 151.8m - OHK on a Heavy Logi mk.0 - Commando gk.0 - Scout gk.0
Middas Betancore Kirjuun Heiian 27	Posted - 2014.07.07 13:02:00 - [27] - Quote Thanks for doing these tests, as a cal scout id really like this question to be cleared up, I seem to have no trouble getting hit, /shrug I dunno Caldari Scout/Sentinel- Closed Beta Player Born, raised and trained under the shadow of Kaalakiota Corp HQ
Fire of Prometheus Alpha Response Command 5218	Posted - 2014.07.07 13:28:00 - [28] - Quote Great tests! I think you are right in your conclusion, I also have come up with the idea that the Caldari scout hitbox isn't messed up, it's simply almost perfect, and is slightly better than the other scouts so it seems to be "wrong" when in actuality, the other scouts are "wrong" and that's why the hit detection appears to be messed up. Combine this with various other effects the game has with hit detection (latency, ghost hits etc.) and it would make the cal scout seem "wrong" wich is false. PSN: jcptmo8055 Long live commandos CCP, at least fix my ck.0 commandos colour scheme...he looks like the Michelin man
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1120	Posted - 2014.07.07 16:51:00 - [29] - Quote Sgt Buttscratch wrote: Repeat the test with a player from Asia.... we had 3 rail rifles on one guy yesterday. He was from an asian corp doing a fast side to side movement and took zero damage. That's not a hit box issue. That's good old classical server lag - meaning opponent is somewhere else than on your screen and while you SEEM to hit him on your screen, the server won't accept it as really wasn't anywhere there at all. :-S
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1120	Posted - 2014.07.07 17:03:00 - [30] - Quote Mad props to Aeon for doing this. Sure it won't underline how commonplace and how affecting the ghost hits are but still valuable work and shows that the hitbox really is (at least on client side) the shape of the model. Honestly, even I thought that the models and hitboxes are entirely different things, with hitboxes being rough squarish areas following the model. :-S

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2495	Posted - 2014.07.07 17:13:00 - [31] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Have a different idea on how to test for hit detection errors? Thank you for doing this, Aeon. We're not sure how or why, but rapid, lateral directional changes (such as figure eight strafe) seem to yield better results for the CalScout than other Scouts. Speed isn't at issue, as the Minmatar Scout is faster when strafing but does not reproduce the observed problems. Also, decloak animation is another prime suspect. This is most evident in CQC shotgun duels. Initial, on-target shotgun blasts miss the CalScout at a greater frequency than other Scouts, especially if the CalScout is decloaking. Here's Iggy's example footage in case you haven't seen it yet. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6174	Posted - 2014.07.07 17:39:00 - [32] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Have a different idea on how to test for hit detection errors? Thank you for doing this, Aeon. We're not sure how or why, but rapid, lateral directional changes (such as figure eight strafe) seem to yield better results for the CalScout than other Scouts. Speed isn't at issue, as the Minmatar Scout is faster when strafing but does not reproduce the observed problems. Also, decloak animation is another prime suspect. This is most evident in CQC shotgun duels. Initial, on-target shotgun blasts miss the CalScout at a greater frequency than other Scouts, especially if the CalScout is decloaking. Here's Iggy's example footage in case you haven't seen it yet. Thing about the Shotgun (not sure if this was changed, been a while since I did the test) is that the Shotgun spread doesn't cover all of the reticle. Had done a test with Rampage a while back regarding this but, like everything, it was panned. At any rate, I'm officially awake now so I'mma upload the video where Zatara and I were on different teams. I had absolutely no problem hitting him at all save for one instance where he had a bit of elevation but I've -always- had problems hitting targets at a different elevation than me. It'll be up soon. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6174	Posted - 2014.07.07 17:40:00 - [33] - Quote Sum1ne Else wrote: Awesome, great job- you can really see those markers of when they do and do not. What is your X & Y in ADS at? you track him really well.. Sensitivity is at 30 ADS sensitivity is at 25 Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6175	Posted - 2014.07.07 19:21:00 - [34] - Quote Alright, here's the second test video that pretty much just goes to show that it's either latency based or you guys just suck at aiming like I do Take Two Sarcasm aside, didn't notice much different in this video, other than the fact that it took significantly longer because I had to wait for Zatara's shields to come back up. There were a few instances of ghost hits but the majority of the time that damage wasn't applied, I was just missing. I don't have the most amazing gun-game in the world, obviously, but I do well enough to hit the target. In this video there are a few slow-mo portions. One of which is when a random tried to kill me with a Proto Gal Scout and I slowed the clip down to illustrate that I was missing, a lot, before I finally managed to kill him by putting a good portion of my clip into his ankles when he jumped. Another slowed down bit is against Zatara to show that I was getting ghost hits against him, but later did damage even when no hit indicator was given to signify that I did, in fact, hit him. Finally, the last slowed down bit is to show how terrible I am with fast-moving targets at elevation. Missed a lot there. To re-emphasize that I don't think this myth has much weight to it, and I'm not going to spend every waking hour trying to test every little facet that could potentially play into it, I don't think this has anything to do with faulty hit detection. I've only ever had a problem with certain Caldari Scouts, one in particular was Soren Kazaren who I mention by name just because I literally could not kill the guy no matter how hard I tried. This is anecdotal evidence, absolutely, but it helps when I have video evidence to back up my claims. Figure-8 strafing isn't that big of a deal, wide-arch strafing isn't that big of a deal either; the problem that I have is when they're strafing and I over-compensate for where I think they're going to be and I'm sure that this video demonstrates that rather clearly. To be absolutely 100% clear, I think this is a side effect of players having difficulty compensating for a lack of slow-down effect on bullets as it was taken out in a recent Hotfix. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Grimmiers 619	Posted - 2014.07.07 19:35:00 - [35] - Quote I was having this dorky conversation about hit detection with someone. I asked why we use hitboxes instead of using a silhouette of what the player is seeing. This would fix the hits missing on the edge of the character models and could allow for shots to graze if you hit the edges of the enemy. NIce video though. It proves it's not an issue with the calscout, but with hit detection in general. So many shield flares.
Cenex Langly Dude.Man.Bro 770	Posted - 2014.07.07 19:36:00 - [36] - Quote I did similar tests. I don't think the hit box has bugs, in fact i think it works fine. What I noticed was that it seemed smaller than the other scouts. For example I set up a minmatar scout with nearly the same fitting (left the low slot with a targeting range to match the caldari scout) and in most engagements the caldari just got hit less (speed and less armor on the min scout, almost identical shields). I feel like the other scouts have larger boxes and people hit them more where the caldari has a slightly smaller hit box and the auto-aim doesn't pick up on it as much. I think other scouts should be brought down to the same level as caldari and the problem should be solved. fyi, Amarr and Gallente have HUGE boxes, they are so easy to hit. Newb
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6178	Posted - 2014.07.07 19:45:00 - [37] - Quote Oh, in case anyone's interested, here's the test I did with a Minmatar Scout a year ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlZRORUnTDQ Fairly interesting looking at it now, what with the fact that aiming directly at the target would result in the shot not landing Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Grimmiers 619	Posted - 2014.07.07 19:47:00 - [38] - Quote That bullet homing aim assist is ridiculous in take 2... I made a thread about it and it got buried, but I really hope we can make changes to that and try to improve hit detection overall.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6178	Posted - 2014.07.07 19:57:00 - [39] - Quote Grimmiers wrote: That bullet homing aim assist is ridiculous in take 2... I made a thread about it and it got buried, but I really hope we can make changes to that and try to improve hit detection overall. Might seem ridiculous but without that and the slow-down effect, hit detection would just be even more miserable. Firefights would be ludicrously long, imo. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Grimmiers 619	Posted - 2014.07.07 20:43:00 - [40] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Grimmiers wrote: That bullet homing aim assist is ridiculous in take 2... I made a thread about it and it got buried, but I really hope we can make changes to that and try to improve hit detection overall. Might seem ridiculous but without that and the slow-down effect, hit detection would just be even more miserable. Firefights would be ludicrously long, imo. So are you saying that legion's gunfights will be as bad as dust is with aim assist off? I'm not even saying I want the feature removed if it's good for the game, but I gave up trying to play this game with m/kb (controller still broken...) because of how frustrating it is to even put up an ounce of a fight. If aim assist is disabled why can't it still have the homing bullets? Aim assist is meant to help you aim and the bullets finding the target is part of the hit detection system for dust. It's like there's hit detection assist only for players using controllers with aa on which throws off that balance. I know there were many complaints about this in the past, but I think it's an issue that needs to be touched on within these hotfixes.

Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6179	Posted - 2014.07.07 20:55:00 - [41] - Quote Grimmiers wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Grimmiers wrote: That bullet homing aim assist is ridiculous in take 2... I made a thread about it and it got buried, but I really hope we can make changes to that and try to improve hit detection overall. Might seem ridiculous but without that and the slow-down effect, hit detection would just be even more miserable. Firefights would be ludicrously long, imo. So are you saying that legion's gunfights will be as bad as dust is with aim assist off? I'm not even saying I want the feature removed if it's good for the game, but I gave up trying to play this game with m/kb (controller still broken...) because of how frustrating it is to even put up an ounce of a fight. If aim assist is disabled why can't it still have the homing bullets? Aim assist is meant to help you aim and the bullets finding the target is part of the hit detection system for dust. It's like there's hit detection assist only for players using controllers with aa on which throws off that balance. I know there were many complaints about this in the past, but I think it's an issue that needs to be touched on within these hotfixes. Not talking about Legion at all and bringing it up as a comparison point for turning aim assist off is a bit flawed with mouse/keyboard being more precise than the DS3... Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Tectonic Fusion 1859	Posted - 2014.07.07 21:02:00 - [42] - Quote Slight ghosts hits yes but other then that all this proves is the strafe aim isn't as effective as CoD's normal aiming system. And use a combat rifle, scrambler rifle, and the rail rifle for testing as well...
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6179	Posted - 2014.07.07 21:14:00 - [43] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: Slight ghosts hits yes but other then that all this proves is the strafe aim isn't as effective as CoD's normal aiming system. And use a combat rifle, scrambler rifle, and the rail rifle for testing as well... Like I said, I'm not investing any more time into this until I get something concrete to go off and test. This is going to turn into one very long, arduous testing session that will likely never end as people search for a reason to believe that something is wrong. I'm willing to test again but only if there's something specific to test, not every single weapon in some desperate attempt to find the pit of the cherry. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1


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