DUST Search - Let's talk damage profiles!

The Eristic wrote:

Atiim wrote:

Not only is (+15/-15) far too similar to the Explosives profile, but it would also make dual tanking even stronger as well. Currently, players are able to "dual tank", allowing them to have a reasonably sized HP pool of both shields and armor, thus negating the inherit any weaknesses, as both Anti-Shield and Anti-Armor weapons are ineffective against them.

This however, is where the Projectile profile comes in. Being effective against both Shields and Armor means that those who dual tank will still have a weakness as well, as there is a weapon that can effectively kill their major eHP pool(s).

Explosives are their own world. There are no explosive rifles, and nobody is going to directly use a CR/HMG/SMG in the same situations in which they'd use a MD.

The problem with dual tanking isn't the weapons, really, it's the lack of utility modules (and high slot mods in general) for the majority of suits AND the lack of penalties for brick tanking. There is, regardless of weapons encountered, no reason not to stack raw HP most of the time on any given suit. Dual tanking needs to be made less efficient than "pure" tanking styles and/or eWar alternatives, really, but that's a thread or dozen of its own!

Quote:

What needs to happen, is the profile be changed to (+5%/-5%). That way, it's gain is equal to it's sacrifice (as all the Damage Profiles should be), and there's still a profile which puts dual tanking at a disadvantage.

5/5 would make no appreciable change. It would remain far and away the best rifle to use for every situation (perhaps tautological, because, as said, dual tanking is everywhere), as it'd still be dealing comparable-to-superior damage per trigger pull to both anti-shield and anti-armor specialist weapons without the drawbacks of either. Why even have specializations at that point? The base damage would have to be brought down even further, as it'd still be doing 77 to shields and 85 to armor at basic with extreme ROF and good accuracy. 15/15 would put it at 69 and 93 (up from 89). Still plenty of damage to both, but creates more space for the Scrambler, Laser, and Rail and makes more sense as a weapon to be brought to bear against the Minmatar's enemy, the Amarr.

I suppose it may boil down to a difference of opinion, in that I feel, in this type of game, GOOD "middle ground" options are generally balance-breaking, as they push the player base away from having to make real choices.

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The Eristic Dust 90210 524	Posted - 2014.07.04 09:43:00 - [1] - Quote The "which rifle do you hate" thread set me a'thinking. Currently, we have: Laser - +20 Shield / -20 Armor Blaster - +10 Shield / -10 Armor Projectile - -5 Shield / +10 Armor Rail - -10 Shield / +10 Armor Explosive - -20 Shield / +20 Armor As you can see (and as is well-known), the Projectile profile sticks out. Aside from driving my OCD crazy with the bloody offset, there is some apparent overlap and some less apparent overlap, both of which are problematic. Rail and Projectile having the same profile vs armor means the -5 of Projectile weaponry makes it the clearly superior choice in almost every instance, before even bringing other stats into play. Fighting at extreme ranges might be the exception, but, then again, the sheer output of Projectile weaponry often compensates and the falloff is fairly gradual outside of optimal, operating at a little over 65% efficiency vs shields at 75m! Each trigger pull does substantially more damage than a single round of the Rail Rifle (which fires much more slowly and has delay before firing), the extremely low fire interval of the CR guarantees that all three rounds in a burst will connect most of the time, and it has next to no kick in comparison (~5 rapid fire bursts before reticule deviates significantly at Op. I), further disincentivizing Rail Rifle usage as an anit-armor weapon. There's a reason the higher end of the meta is mostly CRs instead of RRs, even though the latter might be equally visible in pubs. The less obvious comparison, though, is much more interesting. Let's compare the CR and its profile to the Scrambler Rifle, which has a highly staggered profile in favor of shield damage. A standard Scrambler with no mods and proficiency does 78 damage vs shields with +20% Shield efficiency. After -5% Shield efficiency, a single CR trigger pull does 77 damage to shields. 1 hp less against the Scrambler's primary damage type minus overheat and with more zoom and higher accuracy rating (not to mention tiny fitting costs vs the Scrambler's massive costs). Against armor, CR does 89 damage, while Scrambler does 52. This holds at proto level, as well, with the Viziam doing ~86 vs shields and the Boundless doing ~85 after its 95%, while against armor, Viziam does 57 and Boundless does 98. This is a problem, as an anti-armor weapon with no real drawbacks keeps pace with a dedicated anti-shield weapon with substantial drawbacks at the latter's own niche, while massively outpacing the latter at every level in its own. The Scrambler is currently heavily gimped vs armor tanks, which would be fine if true shield tankers existed. Since dual tanking with bricked-out armor is and has been all the rage, the Scrambler can take out shields all it wants, but with the profile + damage mod nerf + proficiency changes, it's become quite difficult to take down many suits and/or deal with more than a single hostile at a time with what is meant to be a frontline infantry rifle (not a suppressor/ranged/specialist weapon like the Laser). The CR is much more effective and practical in every sense. I'd like to see, then, a reworking of profiles to create a great degree of distinction between damage types, making each rifle require real choice. This would include a new profile, +15% / -15% (as the +5% / -5% that has been brought up previously would make practically any weapon capable of reasonable flat DPS too strong across the board), to which Projectile weaponry would be assigned. On the anti-shield side, Lasers should be split into Pulse and Beam categories as in Eve, imo, and the Scrambler (Pulse) made +/- 15% to make it not quite so weak against armor and slightly more usable on suits other than Amarr Assault while still keeping its flavor, the Laser Rifle (Beam) to stay at current profile, on the exact opposite end of the spectrum as the Minmatar's suppressor, the Mass Driver. That would give us: Beam Laser - +20 Shield / -20 Armor Pulse Laser - +15 Shield / -15 Armor Blaster - +10 Shield / -10 Armor Rail - -10 Shield / +10 Armor Projectile - -15 Shield / +15 Armor Explosive - -20 Shield / +20 Armor Not only does this create a more natural profile sequence (OCD again - look at that lovely racial mirroring, too!), it creates more distinction in the weapon lineup, guaranteeing that each weapon type has a somewhat meaningful drawback to consider in terms of damage application. Base damage would still need to be reviewed, but it would be a step in the right direction. Thoughts? Also, ***, I must be bored. Reality is the original Rorschach.* Verily! So much for all that.
Chit Hoppened The Exemplars Top Men. 342	Posted - 2014.07.04 10:21:00 - [2] - Quote I've always thought that the Projectile Damage Profile has been out of whack. Which is prolly why SMGs are the king of all sidearms. Wonder if it would be possible to assign different Damage Profiles to different types of Splash Damage (without a client update) as well? Mass Driver and Flaylock would keep it's -/+20% since it is an actual grenade/mini missile. Swarms would be changed to -/+10% (which I think is the same anyways?) Plasma Cannon would be changed to +/-10%. Just some extra spice to think about. Bringing Heavy Metal to New Eden. Cannon Fever Representative
Fizzer94 Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2809	Posted - 2014.07.04 14:22:00 - [3] - Quote +1 My best match on Dust, 23/6/4 Placon.
Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 270	Posted - 2014.07.05 01:17:00 - [4] - Quote Wait... I thought plasma rifle was +10/-5 AKA - StarVenger
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10184	Posted - 2014.07.05 01:27:00 - [5] - Quote No on the Projectile Profile. Not only is (+15/-15) far too similar to the Explosives profile, but it would also make dual tanking even stronger as well. Currently, players are able to "dual tank", allowing them to have a reasonably sized HP pool of both shields and armor, thus negating the inherit any weaknesses, as both Anti-Shield and Anti-Armor weapons are ineffective against them. This however, is where the Projectile profile comes in. Being effective against both Shields and Armor means that those who dual tank will still have a weakness as well, as there is a weapon that can effectively kill their major eHP pool(s). What needs to happen, is the profile be changed to (+5%/-5%). That way, it's gain is equal to it's sacrifice (as all the Damage Profiles should be), and there's still a profile which puts dual tanking at a disadvantage. Long Live The Anime* Empire* -HAND
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10184	Posted - 2014.07.05 01:30:00 - [6] - Quote Chit Hoppened wrote: I've always thought that the Projectile Damage Profile has been out of whack. Which is prolly why SMGs are the king of all sidearms. Wonder if it would be possible to assign different Damage Profiles to different types of Splash Damage (without a client update) as well? Mass Driver and Flaylock would keep it's -/+20% since it is an actual grenade/mini missile. Swarms would be changed to -/+10% (which I think is the same anyways?) Plasma Cannon would be changed to +/-10%. Just some extra spice to think about. Swarm Launchers are currently Explosive Weapons (+/-20%). Changing it would mean you'd have to give a respec to players who skilled into the Matari Commando for the SL Bonus. SMGs are the king of sidearms because the Magsec's kick is too much for some to manage, and because all of the pistols are garbage. Long Live The Anime* Empire* -HAND
XxGhazbaranxX Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 1656	Posted - 2014.07.05 01:55:00 - [7] - Quote I like the interpretation of data here Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
The Eristic Dust 90210 535	Posted - 2014.07.05 02:03:00 - [8] - Quote Atiim wrote: Not only is (+15/-15) far too similar to the Explosives profile, but it would also make dual tanking even stronger as well. Currently, players are able to "dual tank", allowing them to have a reasonably sized HP pool of both shields and armor, thus negating the inherit any weaknesses, as both Anti-Shield and Anti-Armor weapons are ineffective against them. This however, is where the Projectile profile comes in. Being effective against both Shields and Armor means that those who dual tank will still have a weakness as well, as there is a weapon that can effectively kill their major eHP pool(s). Explosives are their own world. There are no explosive rifles, and nobody is going to directly use a CR/HMG/SMG in the same situations in which they'd use a MD. The problem with dual tanking isn't the weapons, really, it's the lack of utility modules (and high slot mods in general) for the majority of suits AND the lack of penalties for brick tanking. There is, regardless of weapons encountered, no reason not to stack raw HP most of the time on any given suit. Dual tanking needs to be made less efficient than "pure" tanking styles and/or eWar alternatives, really, but that's a thread or dozen of its own! Quote: What needs to happen, is the profile be changed to (+5%/-5%). That way, it's gain is equal to it's sacrifice (as all the Damage Profiles should be), and there's still a profile which puts dual tanking at a disadvantage. 5/5 would make no appreciable change. It would remain far and away the best rifle to use for every situation (perhaps tautological, because, as said, dual tanking is everywhere), as it'd still be dealing comparable-to-superior damage per trigger pull to both anti-shield and anti-armor specialist weapons without the drawbacks of either. Why even have specializations at that point? The base damage would have to be brought down even further, as it'd still be doing 77 to shields and 85 to armor at basic with extreme ROF and good accuracy. 15/15 would put it at 69 and 93 (up from 89). Still plenty of damage to both, but creates more space for the Scrambler, Laser, and Rail and makes more sense as a weapon to be brought to bear against the Minmatar's enemy, the Amarr. I suppose it may boil down to a difference of opinion, in that I feel, in this type of game, GOOD "middle ground" options are generally balance-breaking, as they push the player base away from having to make real choices. Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 3426	Posted - 2014.07.05 02:38:00 - [9] - Quote I'm down for that Its alright everyone, no need to worry it's just an Amarr scout :(
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 3617	Posted - 2014.07.05 04:21:00 - [10] - Quote I agree with the change to 15/15 for laser weapons. I can see your reasoning not to do it with the LR but it would still be nice, those pesky gk0's vex me greatly. It's also probably easier to just change an existing damage profile as a hotfix than it would be to essentially create an entirely new one for the ScR. I also tend to think that 5/5 is a better choice for the CR, Minmatar are all about flexibility/adaptability, why wouldn't they have a pretty flat damage profile? (The godfather of tactical logistics)

bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 312	Posted - 2014.07.05 13:20:00 - [11] - Quote Like the splitting of "la-zers" into pulse and beam. However, projectile damage profile should be -5%/+5% (which is a very slight nerf from current). Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1
The Eristic Dust 90210 538	Posted - 2014.07.05 19:04:00 - [12] - Quote Hate to sound like a broken record, but once again, 5/5 would require an outright damage reduction, as it would actually be doing MORE shield damage per trigger pull than the Scrambler, should the Scrambler be moved to 15/15. It does pretty much the same shield damage already, which is part of the problem in the first place. Leaving it at only -5 Shield with its current damage makes the Scrambler a worse choice in its own niche, as you gain a mere 1 damage to shields in exchange for overheat that inflicts damage to you and leaves you helpless for a period of time, terrible armor damage (which amplifies the overheat problem), a proficiency skill that doesn't really make a difference to the weapon's effectiveness, ridiculous fitting costs, and, honestly, the need to skill into Amarr Assault. I don't want to nerf the CR, I want everything to be the best choice in its niche. Projectile weaponry is currently the best choice in every niche, mainly due to the damage profile in conjunction with the rof (and fire mode + interval in the case of the vanilla CR). If you want a weapon to be the most versatile, the easiest to use and fit, it shouldn't be too good at any specific role, and it most definitely shouldn't hang with the specialists. Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.
Bojo The Mighty Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno 4006	Posted - 2014.07.06 04:02:00 - [13] - Quote I hate to be the odd ball but why not just +/- 10%? I mean it already currently shares the +10 with rail rifle and apparently there is an issue with +/- 5 and I agree with Atiim that +/- 15 is too close to explosives territory i.e. using different kinds of matari weaponry would offer less of a difference. +/-10% cuz why not? Smell the burning flesh. Taste the tangy sulfur air. Volcano Season - Moltar's Haiku : SGC2C
General12912 Gallente Marine Corps 205	Posted - 2014.07.06 05:02:00 - [14] - Quote Chit Hoppened wrote: I've always thought that the Projectile Damage Profile has been out of whack. Which is prolly why SMGs are the king of all sidearms. Wonder if it would be possible to assign different Damage Profiles to different types of Splash Damage (without a client update) as well? Mass Driver and Flaylock would keep it's -/+20% since it is an actual grenade/mini missile. Swarms would be changed to -/+10% (which I think is the same anyways?) Plasma Cannon would be changed to +/-10%. Just some extra spice to think about. you dont get it. in Dust, the Amarr are dual tankers. they depend on pure EHP. even with this recent change in the balance between their shields and armor, i still conider them the best dual tankers. now then, each race's weapons are when supposed to be the best weapons against the dropsuit HP style of their enemies (at least, thats how it is on the Amarr vs. Minmatar side). the reason why Projectile weapons have such a high total damage profile is because they are supposed to be the best against the the Amarr's dual tanking. also, while damage profiles are one thing, its also good to look at damage styles and how both each race disperses damage. The Amarr like accurate, high damage shots. so even though their laser weapons have a -20% vs armor, the damage a laser shot does do against armor is still rather high. the Mnmatar, as far as their projectile weapons are concerned, prefer low damage, inaccurate shots being dispersed at a fast rate. basically, its accurate, high damage per shot vs inaccurate, but high DPS Every suit Gk.0 <3 Gallente Federation Patriot
The Eristic Dust 90210 540	Posted - 2014.07.06 07:30:00 - [15] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: I hate to be the odd ball but why not just +/- 10%? I mean it already currently shares the +10 with rail rifle and apparently there is an issue with +/- 5 and I agree with Atiim that +/- 15 is too close to explosives territory i.e. using different kinds of matari weaponry would offer less of a difference. +/-10% cuz why not? That would probably be ok, aside from the asymmetry making muh head asplode. That puts standard CR at 73 per pull against shields, 89 vs armor. The issue at 10/10 is that it still steps on the RR's toes, but that's not as big of a problem. I've been doing more number crunching, particularly with the 5/5 proposal to see what comes out. To me, the damage for the CR would have to drop to around 24-25 at standard to be meaningfully distinguished from the Scrambler. Here's a crappy chart for the standard CR, Profile (shields/armor) on top, then base damage: shields/armor (rounded up or down to nearest whole): s/a: 05/10 \| 05/05 \| 10/10 \| 15/15 27: 77/89 \| 77/85 \| 73/89 \| 69/93 26: 74/86 \| 74/82 \| 70/86 \| 66/90 25: 71/83 \| 71/79 \| 68/83 \| 64/86 24: 68/79 \| 68/76 \| 65/79 \| 61/83 You have no idea how long I just spent trying to get those pipes to (almost) align. Jebus. I hate it when boards won't let you use  . Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.
Bojo The Mighty Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno 4036	Posted - 2014.07.07 00:10:00 - [16] - Quote The Eristic wrote: Bojo The Mighty wrote: I hate to be the odd ball but why not just +/- 10%? I mean it already currently shares the +10 with rail rifle and apparently there is an issue with +/- 5 and I agree with Atiim that +/- 15 is too close to explosives territory i.e. using different kinds of matari weaponry would offer less of a difference. +/-10% cuz why not? That would probably be ok, aside from the asymmetry making muh head asplode. That puts standard CR at 73 per pull against shields, 89 vs armor. The issue at 10/10 is that it still steps on the RR's toes, but that's not as big of a problem. I've been doing more number crunching, particularly with the 5/5 proposal to see what comes out. To me, the damage for the CR would have to drop to around 24-25 at standard to be meaningfully distinguished from the Scrambler. Here's a crappy chart for the standard CR, Profile (shields/armor) on top, then base damage: shields/armor (rounded up or down to nearest whole): s/a: 05/10 \| 05/05 \| 10/10 \| 15/15 27: 77/89 \| 77/85 \| 73/89 \| 69/93 26: 74/86 \| 74/82 \| 70/86 \| 66/90 25: 71/83 \| 71/79 \| 68/83 \| 64/86 24: 68/79 \| 68/76 \| 65/79 \| 61/83 You have no idea how long I just spent trying to get those pipes to (almost) align. Jebus. I hate it when boards won't let you use  . Wow I am impressed that you got them to align Thanks for the chart. I actually like the 10/10 because it doesn't make it an extremist weapon like the Mass driver it just gives a reasonable shield damage for the armor damage it currently puts out. Yeah I get the stepping on RR toes but really as it is right now CCP has it stepping on the RRs toes and then kneeing it in the groin by having only -5%. With 10/10 they're merely indian wrestling. Smell the burning flesh. Taste the tangy sulfur air. Volcano Season - Moltar's Haiku : SGC2C
Zindorak CaUsE-4-CoNcErN 51	Posted - 2014.07.07 00:33:00 - [17] - Quote I liek this thread
knight guard fury Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 1087	Posted - 2014.07.07 00:54:00 - [18] - Quote The Eristic wrote: Atiim wrote: Not only is (+15/-15) far too similar to the Explosives profile, but it would also make dual tanking even stronger as well. Currently, players are able to "dual tank", allowing them to have a reasonably sized HP pool of both shields and armor, thus negating the inherit any weaknesses, as both Anti-Shield and Anti-Armor weapons are ineffective against them. This however, is where the Projectile profile comes in. Being effective against both Shields and Armor means that those who dual tank will still have a weakness as well, as there is a weapon that can effectively kill their major eHP pool(s). Explosives are their own world. There are no explosive rifles, and nobody is going to directly use a CR/HMG/SMG in the same situations in which they'd use a MD. The problem with dual tanking isn't the weapons, really, it's the lack of utility modules (and high slot mods in general) for the majority of suits AND the lack of penalties for brick tanking. There is, regardless of weapons encountered, no reason not to stack raw HP most of the time on any given suit. Dual tanking needs to be made less efficient than "pure" tanking styles and/or eWar alternatives, really, but that's a thread or dozen of its own! Quote: What needs to happen, is the profile be changed to (+5%/-5%). That way, it's gain is equal to it's sacrifice (as all the Damage Profiles should be), and there's still a profile which puts dual tanking at a disadvantage. 5/5 would make no appreciable change. It would remain far and away the best rifle to use for every situation (perhaps tautological, because, as said, dual tanking is everywhere), as it'd still be dealing comparable-to-superior damage per trigger pull to both anti-shield and anti-armor specialist weapons without the drawbacks of either. Why even have specializations at that point? The base damage would have to be brought down even further, as it'd still be doing 77 to shields and 85 to armor at basic with extreme ROF and good accuracy. 15/15 would put it at 69 and 93 (up from 89). Still plenty of damage to both, but creates more space for the Scrambler, Laser, and Rail and makes more sense as a weapon to be brought to bear against the Minmatar's enemy, the Amarr. I suppose it may boil down to a difference of opinion, in that I feel, in this type of game, GOOD "middle ground" options are generally balance-breaking, as they push the player base away from having to make real choices. this ^^ NOLifing Dust for the Officer Combat rifle Vherokior assassin I fight for the Republic and my life is for the Elders
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11661	Posted - 2014.07.07 01:15:00 - [19] - Quote The more I read this thread the more I want to start T2 vehicle hull resistance threads...... "So you came back......My son, my Udorian son.....bearing the filthy blood of his heathen mother." - Eaderan Ouryon
knight guard fury Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 1087	Posted - 2014.07.07 01:59:00 - [20] - Quote i know you are considering all the weapons in general but think racial wise and who there common enemy is. the minmatar have better dmg values because the amarr would whoop ass if we didnt have good weapons to counter their lasers. explosive weapons are fine since they aren't incredibly strong as they use to be but they are more/less balanced now. the scr does a sh** ton of alpha and with good prof. it has no problem dealing with armor and extremely well against shields. the 2 are supposed to be high dmg weapons because they are (on a regular basis) common enemies towards each other. same for cal and gal, but they can use either weapon, but cal benefit from missiles and rails while gal benefit from blasters and rails. - trust in the rust NOLifing Dust for the Officer Combat rifle Vherokior assassin I fight for the Republic and my life is for the Elders



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