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The Eristic
Dust 90210
524
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Posted - 2014.07.04 09:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
The "which rifle do you hate" thread set me a'thinking.
Currently, we have:
Laser - +20 Shield / -20 Armor
Blaster - +10 Shield / -10 Armor
Projectile - -5 Shield / +10 Armor
Rail - -10 Shield / +10 Armor
Explosive - -20 Shield / +20 Armor
As you can see (and as is well-known), the Projectile profile sticks out. Aside from driving my OCD crazy with the bloody offset, there is some apparent overlap and some less apparent overlap, both of which are problematic.
Rail and Projectile having the same profile vs armor means the -5 of Projectile weaponry makes it the clearly superior choice in almost every instance, before even bringing other stats into play. Fighting at extreme ranges might be the exception, but, then again, the sheer output of Projectile weaponry often compensates and the falloff is fairly gradual outside of optimal, operating at a little over 65% efficiency vs shields at 75m! Each trigger pull does substantially more damage than a single round of the Rail Rifle (which fires much more slowly and has delay before firing), the extremely low fire interval of the CR guarantees that all three rounds in a burst will connect most of the time, and it has next to no kick in comparison (~5 rapid fire bursts before reticule deviates significantly at Op. I), further disincentivizing Rail Rifle usage as an anit-armor weapon. There's a reason the higher end of the meta is mostly CRs instead of RRs, even though the latter might be equally visible in pubs.
The less obvious comparison, though, is much more interesting. Let's compare the CR and its profile to the Scrambler Rifle, which has a highly staggered profile in favor of shield damage. A standard Scrambler with no mods and proficiency does 78 damage vs shields with +20% Shield efficiency. After -5% Shield efficiency, a single CR trigger pull does 77 damage to shields. 1 hp less against the Scrambler's primary damage type minus overheat and with more zoom and higher accuracy rating (not to mention tiny fitting costs vs the Scrambler's massive costs). Against armor, CR does 89 damage, while Scrambler does 52. This holds at proto level, as well, with the Viziam doing ~86 vs shields and the Boundless doing ~85 after its 95%, while against armor, Viziam does 57 and Boundless does 98. This is a problem, as an anti-armor weapon with no real drawbacks keeps pace with a dedicated anti-shield weapon with substantial drawbacks at the latter's own niche, while massively outpacing the latter at every level in its own. The Scrambler is currently heavily gimped vs armor tanks, which would be fine if true shield tankers existed. Since dual tanking with bricked-out armor is and has been all the rage, the Scrambler can take out shields all it wants, but with the profile + damage mod nerf + proficiency changes, it's become quite difficult to take down many suits and/or deal with more than a single hostile at a time with what is meant to be a frontline infantry rifle (not a suppressor/ranged/specialist weapon like the Laser). The CR is much more effective and practical in every sense.
I'd like to see, then, a reworking of profiles to create a great degree of distinction between damage types, making each rifle require real choice. This would include a new profile, +15% / -15% (as the +5% / -5% that has been brought up previously would make practically any weapon capable of reasonable flat DPS too strong across the board), to which Projectile weaponry would be assigned. On the anti-shield side, Lasers should be split into Pulse and Beam categories as in Eve, imo, and the Scrambler (Pulse) made +/- 15% to make it not *quite* so weak against armor and slightly more usable on suits other than Amarr Assault while still keeping its flavor, the Laser Rifle (Beam) to stay at current profile, on the exact opposite end of the spectrum as the Minmatar's suppressor, the Mass Driver.
That would give us:
Beam Laser - +20 Shield / -20 Armor
Pulse Laser - +15 Shield / -15 Armor
Blaster - +10 Shield / -10 Armor
Rail - -10 Shield / +10 Armor
Projectile - -15 Shield / +15 Armor
Explosive - -20 Shield / +20 Armor
Not only does this create a more natural profile sequence (OCD again - look at that lovely racial mirroring, too!), it creates more distinction in the weapon lineup, guaranteeing that each weapon type has a somewhat meaningful drawback to consider in terms of damage application. Base damage would still need to be reviewed, but it would be a step in the right direction. Thoughts?
Also, ****, I must be bored.
Reality is the original Rorschach.
Verily! So much for all that.
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The Eristic
Dust 90210
535
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Posted - 2014.07.05 02:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Not only is (+15/-15) far too similar to the Explosives profile, but it would also make dual tanking even stronger as well. Currently, players are able to "dual tank", allowing them to have a reasonably sized HP pool of both shields and armor, thus negating the inherit any weaknesses, as both Anti-Shield and Anti-Armor weapons are ineffective against them.
This however, is where the Projectile profile comes in. Being effective against both Shields and Armor means that those who dual tank will still have a weakness as well, as there is a weapon that can effectively kill their major eHP pool(s).
Explosives are their own world. There are no explosive rifles, and nobody is going to directly use a CR/HMG/SMG in the same situations in which they'd use a MD.
The problem with dual tanking isn't the weapons, really, it's the lack of utility modules (and high slot mods in general) for the majority of suits AND the lack of penalties for brick tanking. There is, regardless of weapons encountered, no reason not to stack raw HP most of the time on any given suit. Dual tanking needs to be made less efficient than "pure" tanking styles and/or eWar alternatives, really, but that's a thread or dozen of its own!
Quote:What needs to happen, is the profile be changed to (+5%/-5%). That way, it's gain is equal to it's sacrifice (as all the Damage Profiles should be), and there's still a profile which puts dual tanking at a disadvantage.
5/5 would make no appreciable change. It would remain far and away the best rifle to use for every situation (perhaps tautological, because, as said, dual tanking is everywhere), as it'd still be dealing comparable-to-superior damage per trigger pull to both anti-shield and anti-armor specialist weapons without the drawbacks of either. Why even have specializations at that point? The base damage would have to be brought down even further, as it'd still be doing 77 to shields and 85 to armor at basic with extreme ROF and good accuracy. 15/15 would put it at 69 and 93 (up from 89). Still plenty of damage to both, but creates more space for the Scrambler, Laser, and Rail and makes more sense as a weapon to be brought to bear against the Minmatar's enemy, the Amarr.
I suppose it may boil down to a difference of opinion, in that I feel, in this type of game, GOOD "middle ground" options are generally balance-breaking, as they push the player base away from having to make real choices.
Reality is the original Rorschach.
Verily! So much for all that.
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The Eristic
Dust 90210
538
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Posted - 2014.07.05 19:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hate to sound like a broken record, but once again, 5/5 would require an outright damage reduction, as it would actually be doing MORE shield damage per trigger pull than the Scrambler, should the Scrambler be moved to 15/15. It does pretty much the same shield damage already, which is part of the problem in the first place. Leaving it at only -5 Shield with its current damage makes the Scrambler a worse choice in its own niche, as you gain a mere 1 damage to shields in exchange for overheat that inflicts damage to you and leaves you helpless for a period of time, terrible armor damage (which amplifies the overheat problem), a proficiency skill that doesn't really make a difference to the weapon's effectiveness, ridiculous fitting costs, and, honestly, the need to skill into Amarr Assault. I don't want to nerf the CR, I want everything to be the best choice in its niche. Projectile weaponry is currently the best choice in every niche, mainly due to the damage profile in conjunction with the rof (and fire mode + interval in the case of the vanilla CR). If you want a weapon to be the most versatile, the easiest to use and fit, it shouldn't be too good at any specific role, and it most definitely shouldn't hang with the specialists.
Reality is the original Rorschach.
Verily! So much for all that.
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The Eristic
Dust 90210
540
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Posted - 2014.07.06 07:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:I hate to be the odd ball but why not just +/- 10%? I mean it already currently shares the +10 with rail rifle and apparently there is an issue with +/- 5 and I agree with Atiim that +/- 15 is too close to explosives territory i.e. using different kinds of matari weaponry would offer less of a difference.
+/-10% cuz why not?
That would probably be ok, aside from the asymmetry making muh head asplode. That puts standard CR at 73 per pull against shields, 89 vs armor. The issue at 10/10 is that it still steps on the RR's toes, but that's not as big of a problem.
I've been doing more number crunching, particularly with the 5/5 proposal to see what comes out. To me, the damage for the CR would have to drop to around 24-25 at standard to be meaningfully distinguished from the Scrambler. Here's a crappy chart for the standard CR, Profile (shields/armor) on top, then base damage: shields/armor (rounded up or down to nearest whole):
- s/a: 05/10 | 05/05 | 10/10 | 15/15
- 27: 77/89 | 77/85 | 73/89 | 69/93
- 26: 74/86 | 74/82 | 70/86 | 66/90
- 25: 71/83 | 71/79 | 68/83 | 64/86
- 24: 68/79 | 68/76 | 65/79 | 61/83
You have no idea how long I just spent trying to get those pipes to (almost) align. Jebus. I hate it when boards won't let you use .
Reality is the original Rorschach.
Verily! So much for all that.
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