DUST Search - The HP difference between assaults and scouts need to increase

Cat Merc wrote:

Sinboto Simmons wrote:

Hmm, I think we both know we're not going to reach an agreement here, our opinions on the matter are different and that's fine.

For what we agree on wholeheartedly= Scouts have too much HP, Assaults aren't good enough at assaulting.

Scouts=Ewar/Biotics

Assaults=Shooting things

The Assaults' CPU/PG reduction skills reflect it's role.

The Scouts' Ewar skills and high Biotics reflect it's role.

Assaults do in fact need better racial skills and slot layout.

Scouts shouldn't be able to tank and be fast.

We agree on these things yes?

CCP is already looking at passive scanning, also once again racial bonuses for ganja, what we DON'T want is for the scout to revert back to days past.

Things like the scouts' regen are there for a reson: to get back what tank they have due to (supposedly) using their slots foe things like code breakers and dampening.

Things like scouts' stamina and speed are there for a similar reason= to play on the suit's strengths and cover weaknesses.

Mess with these and all you're doing is punishing those who scout to scout, brick tankers will still brick tank.

I'm not sure if you do PC, but I'll tell you now going in as a true scout is no fun.....

So yes ditch the brick tanking, but mess with the scouts' core gameplay and you'll put them back in a hole.

Yes we agree on those.
Though to be more specific, the assault should be the first responder to evolving threats, as well as general purpose grunts of the battlefield.
Example:
-Scout detected a hoard of enemies flanking
-Assaults come in and create a wall of defense
-Scouts takeout targets of value like logistics
-Heavies and logis get in and set up their position for a more concentrated defense
-Assaults push forward with the help of the Heavy line behind them

Being a first responder requires a good balance of HP, mobility, regeneration and damage.

I wasn't saying nerf scout speed and stamina or EWAR, I was just saying that those are advantages over an assault, and they need to come at a price, a price that is currently too low.

You could increase the price by nerfing scouts, or buffing assaults.
Assaults already have good mobility, but they're lacking in damage, HP and regeneration.

Just to make it clear, I am of the opinion that if a scout is stuck in 1v1 combat with an assault at equal skill levels, and the scout didn't do a sneak attack or anything like that, the assault should win 99% of the time.
The 1% being hit detection screw ups.


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Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Dirt Nap Squad. 6174	Posted - 2014.07.01 12:23:00 - [1] - Quote Personaly I think this all circles back to the brick tanking problem, tank with relatively little penalty, no one complained about my shield tanked Minja. (unless they got stabbed/MDerd/REed) That and the cloaks ability to fire immediately after decloak made us more of a 'light assault' class. Another problem: What's a 'scout' in dust 514, a 'logi', a 'heavy', ask 100 players and you'll likely get 100 answers. There's no base for our classes, CCP seemed scared to put down restrictions for the classes, leading to heavies with rifles, fast tanks, tanked scouts, slayer logies ect ect ect. I've seen pleanty of these things in this thread alone: Assault should be faster, have more stamina, and better regen than scouts. What? If I remember correctly you've used scouts so you should know that alot of the bonuses you've listed need to be coupled with mods, such as scanning range amps and kincats, or those bonuses are minimal at best. (or downright useless) And I'm not going to even start with how bloody difficult it is to fit a proper suit with a proto cloak on any scout. (especially my Minja) I'm not saying the scouts don't need to be knocked down a peg, I'm certainly not saying that the assault dosen't need help, but what I AM saying is that what you're trying to do is a short sighted solution. To others in this thread: Just try to fix the core of the problem before you go screwing over peoples' play styles, CCP does enough of that for you. Sinboto - The True Blood Minja Forum Warrior level 5 Prof 1 STB-Infantry (Demolition)
Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Dirt Nap Squad. 6178	Posted - 2014.07.01 18:31:00 - [2] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Sinboto Simmons wrote: Personaly I think this all circles back to the brick tanking problem, tank with relatively little penalty, no one complained about my shield tanked Minja. (unless they got stabbed/MDerd/REed) That and the cloaks ability to fire immediately after decloak made us more of a 'light assault' class. Another problem: What's a 'scout' in dust 514, a 'logi', a 'heavy', ask 100 players and you'll likely get 100 answers. There's no base for our classes, CCP seemed scared to put down restrictions for the classes, leading to heavies with rifles, fast tanks, tanked scouts, slayer logies ect ect ect. I've seen pleanty of these things in this thread alone: Assault should be faster, have more stamina, and better regen than scouts. What? If I remember correctly you've used scouts so you should know that alot of the bonuses you've listed need to be coupled with mods, such as scanning range amps and kincats, or those bonuses are minimal at best. (or downright useless) And I'm not going to even start with how bloody difficult it is to fit a proper suit with a proto cloak on any scout. (especially my Minja) I'm not saying the scouts don't need to be knocked down a peg, I'm certainly not saying that the assault dosen't need help, but what I AM saying is that what you're trying to do is a short sighted solution. To others in this thread: Just try to fix the core of the problem before you go screwing over peoples' play styles, CCP does enough of that for you. Yes, I have used scouts. And I also use assaults quite a bit, so I know that while for a scout these advantages might seem minor, to an assault they're huge. A full 1m/s faster speed than most assaults needs a mod? Very high CPU/PG? (The minja is the only one without absurdly higher CPU/PG, and yet it's still higher than Caldari/Gallente assaults) The ability to evade advanced scanners for free? The ability to scan at 30m range without any mods on, and to be able to scan down all units bar scouts? 50hp/s shield regeneration? (On Caldari) Smaller hitbox? More stamina and faster stamina regen? None of these require any mods on, and they're all huge advantages over an assault. The core of the problem cannot be fixed without rethinking the entire game, this is a bandaid, and like any bandaid, it's not perfect. 1m/s is nothing, since meters=feet in this game. (That and the scout has hollow bones for this very reason) The CPU/PG I can agree on, but is somewhat necessary for two equipment slots. (That yes we do use for things like REs) and the cloak's massive output. Evading scanners comes with being a stealth unit, it's like complaining about the commando's damage bonuses. 30 meters without mods? I wish, no scout does that not even the ganja anymore. Caldari are shield tankers, always have been, all of their suits have higher regen/ lower shield regen times, go check if you havent. Small frame= small hitbox, it used to be larger as you ran, everyone called bullshit, because that's bullshit. If you know much about the lore you know why our stamina/regen is so high= two hearts. Cat you're not stupid, and you know I'm not (completely) stupid, so can we agree not to try and bullshit each other in the future? Sinboto - The True Blood Minja Forum Warrior level 5 Prof 1 STB-Infantry (Demolition)
Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Dirt Nap Squad. 6181	Posted - 2014.07.01 19:28:00 - [3] - Quote Hmm, I think we both know we're not going to reach an agreement here, our opinions on the matter are different and that's fine. For what we agree on wholeheartedly= Scouts have too much HP, Assaults aren't good enough at assaulting. Scouts=Ewar/Biotics Assaults=Shooting things The Assaults' CPU/PG reduction skills reflect it's role. The Scouts' Ewar skills and high Biotics reflect it's role. Assaults do in fact need better racial skills and slot layout. Scouts shouldn't be able to tank and be fast. We agree on these things yes? CCP is already looking at passive scanning, also once again racial bonuses for ganja, what we DON'T want is for the scout to revert back to days past. Things like the scouts' regen are there for a reson: to get back what tank they have due to (supposedly) using their slots foe things like code breakers and dampening. Things like scouts' stamina and speed are there for a similar reason= to play on the suit's strengths and cover weaknesses. Mess with these and all you're doing is punishing those who scout to scout, brick tankers will still brick tank. I'm not sure if you do PC, but I'll tell you now going in as a true scout is no fun..... So yes ditch the brick tanking, but mess with the scouts' core gameplay and you'll put them back in a hole. Sinboto - The True Blood Minja Forum Warrior level 5 Prof 1 STB-Infantry (Demolition)
Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Dirt Nap Squad. 6182	Posted - 2014.07.01 20:02:00 - [4] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Sinboto Simmons wrote: Hmm, I think we both know we're not going to reach an agreement here, our opinions on the matter are different and that's fine. For what we agree on wholeheartedly= Scouts have too much HP, Assaults aren't good enough at assaulting. Scouts=Ewar/Biotics Assaults=Shooting things The Assaults' CPU/PG reduction skills reflect it's role. The Scouts' Ewar skills and high Biotics reflect it's role. Assaults do in fact need better racial skills and slot layout. Scouts shouldn't be able to tank and be fast. We agree on these things yes? CCP is already looking at passive scanning, also once again racial bonuses for ganja, what we DON'T want is for the scout to revert back to days past. Things like the scouts' regen are there for a reson: to get back what tank they have due to (supposedly) using their slots foe things like code breakers and dampening. Things like scouts' stamina and speed are there for a similar reason= to play on the suit's strengths and cover weaknesses. Mess with these and all you're doing is punishing those who scout to scout, brick tankers will still brick tank. I'm not sure if you do PC, but I'll tell you now going in as a true scout is no fun..... So yes ditch the brick tanking, but mess with the scouts' core gameplay and you'll put them back in a hole. Yes we agree on those. Though to be more specific, the assault should be the first responder to evolving threats, as well as general purpose grunts of the battlefield. Example: -Scout detected a hoard of enemies flanking -Assaults come in and create a wall of defense -Scouts takeout targets of value like logistics -Heavies and logis get in and set up their position for a more concentrated defense -Assaults push forward with the help of the Heavy line behind them Being a first responder requires a good balance of HP, mobility, regeneration and damage. I wasn't saying nerf scout speed and stamina or EWAR, I was just saying that those are advantages over an assault, and they need to come at a price, a price that is currently too low. You could increase the price by nerfing scouts, or buffing assaults. Assaults already have good mobility, but they're lacking in damage, HP and regeneration. Just to make it clear, I am of the opinion that if a scout is stuck in 1v1 combat with an assault at equal skill levels, and the scout didn't do a sneak attack or anything like that, the assault should win 99% of the time. The 1% being hit detection screw ups. I know that you're not trying to nerf anything but (this is gonna sound really bad) when people like you, mustard, and myself make threads like this others take note, and most of the time go off making threads of their own with less than nobel intentions. And we both know there are far too many factors to be stating numbers like that. Sinboto - The True Blood Minja Forum Warrior level 5 Prof 1 STB-Infantry (Demolition)