DUST Search - Big problem for giving the Amarr scout a bonus towards ferroscale

Roger Cordill wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

Aero Yassavi wrote:

Roger Cordill wrote:

And your solution is what exactly is my question. What, nerf it's armor?

I didn't provide a solution, I'm not claiming to have one. I simply noticed a lot of people claiming "Bonus to ferroscale plates" as a solution and before CCP runs away with that idea I want to make sure they know why that wouldn't exactly work. Maybe if the Amarr scout wasn't nearly 4% slower than the other scouts it would work, so there's a solution I suppose. Make the Amarr scout faster (but still slower than the others if you must) and then give it a bonus towards ferroscale plates.

Dude you know the Amarr scout does not have to be a slow frame.

We have plenty of examples of speedy things.

They are generally the slowest, and there shouldn't be a "well, in the Scout category they're actually the fastest" scenario That just goes to confuse people, and annoys people who went for X race (in this case WInamtar) because they went for X trait (in this case, speed), or even Gallente (They are regarded as second fastest, which makes sense, because you know, they use blasters, the shortest ranged thing?).

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Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8555	Posted - 2014.06.24 17:33:00 - [1] - Quote Changing the Amarr bonus to a percent efficacy towards ferroscale plates seem to be a popular suggestion in "fixing" the Amarr scout, but I'd like to point out why this might not be so great in a very objective manner. Let's compare the Amarr scout to the Gallente scout, simply because they are both armor oriented and have the same slot layout at proto. Movement Speeds Amarr Scout: 5.25 m/s Gallente Scout: 5.45 m/s Percent DIfference: 3.67% EHP (with armor upgrades and shield upgrades to 5) Amarr Scout: 287.5 HP Gallente Scout 250 HP Difference: 37.5 HP towards Amarr Now let's give the Amarr Scout one complex ferroscale plate while giving the Gallente scout one enhanced armor plate. With armor plating to 5, a complex ferroscale plate adds 82.5 armor for 0% movement penalty, while a standard armor plate will add 121 armor for 4% movement penalty. The enhanced plate adds 38.5 more HP than the complex ferroscale. So lets see how this changes things. Movement Speeds Amarr Scout: 5.25 m/s Gallente Scout: 5.232 m/s Percent Difference: 0.34% EHP Amarr Scout: 370 HP Gallente Scout: 371 HP Difference: 1 HP As you can see, these values are essentially identical. So basically a Gallente scout with an advanced module equals an Amarr scout with a complex module, what insanity! From this perspective, simply giving the Amarr scout a bonus towards ferroscale plates will seem like it is merely trying to catch up to the Gallente scout, and then the Gallente scout gets its own bonus which pulls it ahead. The Gallente scout would still be the preferred brick tank scout. Amarr are the good guys.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8567	Posted - 2014.06.25 04:42:00 - [2] - Quote If you're going to like something might as well bump it as well. Amarr are the good guys.
Roger Cordill The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 372	Posted - 2014.06.25 04:51:00 - [3] - Quote And your solution is what exactly is my question. What, nerf it's armor?
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8567	Posted - 2014.06.25 05:01:00 - [4] - Quote Roger Cordill wrote: And your solution is what exactly is my question. What, nerf it's armor? I didn't provide a solution, I'm not claiming to have one. I simply noticed a lot of people claiming "Bonus to ferroscale plates" as a solution and before CCP runs away with that idea I want to make sure they know why that wouldn't exactly work. Maybe if the Amarr scout wasn't nearly 4% slower than the other scouts it would work, so there's a solution I suppose. Make the Amarr scout faster (but still slower than the others if you must) and then give it a bonus towards ferroscale plates. Amarr are the good guys.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11152	Posted - 2014.06.25 05:05:00 - [5] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Roger Cordill wrote: And your solution is what exactly is my question. What, nerf it's armor? I didn't provide a solution, I'm not claiming to have one. I simply noticed a lot of people claiming "Bonus to ferroscale plates" as a solution and before CCP runs away with that idea I want to make sure they know why that wouldn't exactly work. Maybe if the Amarr scout wasn't nearly 4% slower than the other scouts it would work, so there's a solution I suppose. Make the Amarr scout faster (but still slower than the others if you must) and then give it a bonus towards ferroscale plates. Dude you know the Amarr scout does not have to be a slow frame. We have plenty of examples of speedy things. " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8567	Posted - 2014.06.25 05:08:00 - [6] - Quote Also thought I'd point this out: Interceptors are the fastest ships in EVE. Let's look at each races fastest interceptor and rank them in speed. 1) Minmatar Claw: 475 m/s 2) Amarr Crusader: 455 m/s 3) Caldari Crow: 430 m/s 4) Gallente Ares: 425 m/s As you can see, the Amarr actually have the second fastest ship in the game! Faster than both Gallente and Caldari! There's no reason the Amarr wouldn't be able to make something at least comparable in speed for a scout dropsuit which as a role relies on speed. I don't see what would be so bad about equalizing the Amarr Scout's movement speed to 4.45 m/s (same as Gallente and Caldari scouts), but just for the scout. Amarr would have the edge in it's 30 extra EHP, Gallente would have the edge in it's 3 inherent armor reps, and Caldari in it's shield stats. Amarr are the good guys.
Roger Cordill The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 372	Posted - 2014.06.25 05:11:00 - [7] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Roger Cordill wrote: And your solution is what exactly is my question. What, nerf it's armor? I didn't provide a solution, I'm not claiming to have one. I simply noticed a lot of people claiming "Bonus to ferroscale plates" as a solution and before CCP runs away with that idea I want to make sure they know why that wouldn't exactly work. Maybe if the Amarr scout wasn't nearly 4% slower than the other scouts it would work, so there's a solution I suppose. Make the Amarr scout faster (but still slower than the others if you must) and then give it a bonus towards ferroscale plates. Dude you know the Amarr scout does not have to be a slow frame. We have plenty of examples of speedy things. They are generally the slowest, and there shouldn't be a "well, in the Scout category they're actually the fastest" scenario That just goes to confuse people, and annoys people who went for X race (in this case WInamtar) because they went for X trait (in this case, speed), or even Gallente (They are regarded as second fastest, which makes sense, because you know, they use blasters, the shortest ranged thing?).
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1396	Posted - 2014.06.25 05:14:00 - [8] - Quote Amarr are about armor, but that does not inmatar rebels ships, which are more nimble than the Amarrian designs of old. The executioner and interceptors are prime examples. This can be Amarr's exception. A bonus to ferroscale AND reactive plates means that they can tank and still be speedy, while Gallente scout can just tank. Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8567	Posted - 2014.06.25 05:14:00 - [9] - Quote Roger Cordill wrote: True Adamance wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Roger Cordill wrote: And your solution is what exactly is my question. What, nerf it's armor? I didn't provide a solution, I'm not claiming to have one. I simply noticed a lot of people claiming "Bonus to ferroscale plates" as a solution and before CCP runs away with that idea I want to make sure they know why that wouldn't exactly work. Maybe if the Amarr scout wasn't nearly 4% slower than the other scouts it would work, so there's a solution I suppose. Make the Amarr scout faster (but still slower than the others if you must) and then give it a bonus towards ferroscale plates. Dude you know the Amarr scout does not have to be a slow frame. We have plenty of examples of speedy things. They are generally the slowest, and there shouldn't be a "well, in the Scout category they're actually the fastest" scenario That just goes to confuse people, and annoys people who went for X race (in this case WInamtar) because they went for X trait (in this case, speed), or even Gallente (They are regarded as second fastest, which makes sense, because you know, they use blasters, the shortest ranged thing?). Gallente second fastest? No one is skilling into Gallente because second fastest, they are skilling into Gallente because of armor and blasters. That's what should not change. In the case of speed, of course Minmatar should always be fastest in all roles, but the ranking of the other three can freely mix around in my opinion, wouldn't confuse anyone because again no one is saying "I want to skill into Gallente because they are second fastest!" or "I want to skill into Caldari because they are third fastest!" Amarr are the good guys.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8567	Posted - 2014.06.25 05:16:00 - [10] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Amarr are about armor, but that does not inmatar rebels ships, which are more nimble than the Amarrian designs of old. The executioner and interceptors are prime examples. This can be Amarr's exception. A bonus to ferroscale AND reactive plates means that they can tank and still be speedy, while Gallente scout can just tank. Do you not see the example I gave in the original post? An Amarr scout placing a complex ferroscale plate has near identical stats as a Gallente scout placing an enhanced armor plate. Giving the Amarr this bonus and nothing else won't do anything to change their viability, Gallente scout would still be the preferred brick tank scout. Amarr are the good guys.

SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 882	Posted - 2014.06.25 05:27:00 - [11] - Quote Yes, but what about dual plates? triple plates etc? Dust/Eve transfers
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1449	Posted - 2014.06.25 05:50:00 - [12] - Quote Agree that the ferro/active plate bonus isn't perfect, but it is an improvement. Coupled with changes to the Gal/Cal it could make the Amarr scout the go to light assault, but as is it will just make the suit slightly less unviable. Armor (Max Skill)In-Game Value/Proposed Value Cmp Plates (x4) 806.50/806.50 Cmp Ferroscale (x4)542.50/625.00 Cmp Reactive (x4)476.50/542.50 So from that, you could go ~600 with a low repair rate, while not losing any movement. That's not bad. If that doesn't float your boat, I offered up the following suggestions to CCP, with the stam bonus to be retained in addition. 1. Remove the range bonus from the Cal/Gal and gift it to the Amarr (but based on module efficency instead of a straight bonus so that range amps must be fitted to use the bonus) or 2. Grant them a 5% per level increase to armor provided by ferroscale and reactive plate (not plate armor) so they can play light assault without losing their speed advantage or 3. Grant them a 5% per level range increase to the ScP If you like any of them then champion a call for change. If you don't, come up with an alternative. Rattati is listening. Knowledge is power
OP FOTM Commando Perkone Caldari State 11	Posted - 2014.06.25 05:52:00 - [13] - Quote you know what someone said that I liked? bonus to cloak duration and recharge
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8568	Posted - 2014.06.25 06:22:00 - [14] - Quote Brokerib wrote: 1. Remove the range bonus from the Cal/Gal and gift it to the Amarr (but based on module efficency instead of a straight bonus so that range amps must be fitted to use the bonus) If you want to do that, than the Gallente scouts bonus needs to change to efficacy of profile dampeners, Caldari scout needs to change to efficacy of precision enhancers, and Minmatar scout needs to change to efficacy of codebreakers. If you are going to force the Amarr scout to use specific modules than you need to for other suits, but no one wants to be forced to use specific modules so I am generally against efficacy bonuses. Amarr are the good guys.
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1449	Posted - 2014.06.25 06:28:00 - [15] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Brokerib wrote: 1. Remove the range bonus from the Cal/Gal and gift it to the Amarr (but based on module efficency instead of a straight bonus so that range amps must be fitted to use the bonus) If you want to do that, than the Gallente scouts bonus needs to change to efficacy of profile dampeners, Caldari scout needs to change to efficacy of precision enhancers, and Minmatar scout needs to change to efficacy of codebreakers. If you are going to force the Amarr scout to use specific modules than you need to for other suits, but no one wants to be forced to use specific modules so I am generally against efficacy bonuses. That's exactly what I meant about changes to the Gal/Cal, though I would prefer the Min bonus to be to kin cat efficacy. And I'm totally for forcing the use of modules to gain the benefits of a bonus. See the Minmatar NK bonus, Logi equipment bonuses, Assault weapon bonuses, and Commando weapon bonuses. Knowledge is power
Boot Booter Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 599	Posted - 2014.06.25 07:03:00 - [16] - Quote I'm confused. Don't see where you applied a bonus towards amarr scouts fitting ferroscale in the OP. Assuming it's something like 3%... The amarr scout would have 95 HP from a complex ferroscale, not 82. Just throwing a percentage out there, not sure what others are proposing. SMG Specialist
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1449	Posted - 2014.06.25 07:08:00 - [17] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: I'm confused. Don't see where you applied a bonus towards amarr scouts fitting ferroscale in the OP. Assuming it's something like 3%... The amarr scout would have 95 HP from a complex ferroscale, not 82. Just throwing a percentage out there, not sure what others are proposing. 5% a level. Details are here under the Amarr tab: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yY-wASZyRYyrnkshM8l2Fnt0m9M115MynRjQfnvzTMQ/edit?pli=1#gid=1499925979 Knowledge is power
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 4873	Posted - 2014.06.25 09:26:00 - [18] - Quote The extra armour plates have always been shite. They're the problem. RIP Stinky Sleeve. RIP Dust514. See you on Destiny. PSN: GSDSteVB
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11168	Posted - 2014.06.25 10:21:00 - [19] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: The extra armour plates have always been shite. They're the problem. Indeed and how does increasing the capacity of a scout to tank damage fulfil or add to the role of being a scout? Answer: It does not in anyway shape or form. " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 620	Posted - 2014.06.25 10:45:00 - [20] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: The extra armour plates have always been shite. They're the problem. Indeed and how does increasing the capacity of a scout to tank damage fulfil or add to the role of being a scout? Answer: It does not in anyway shape or form. I absolutely agree. Generally I see no reason why the Amarr Scout should be a light Assault. An Amarr Assault is no medium Sentinel, either. If you are looking for a light Assault, choose Minmatar Assault. If you're looking for a role for the Amarr Scout, I'd prefer it to be long range passive scanning with no bonus to precision or dampening.



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