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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2148
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Posted - 2014.06.22 04:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
General Thoughts
Suit bonuses can go one of two ways, either you can make the bonuses passive bonuses that are always applied (like the Sentinel damage resistances) or you can give it bonuses to modules that make sense for that role (Such as the Reduced PG/CPU for Logistics equipment). Both options work but the main issue right now is that it is inconsistent between the classes, hence many of the issues we see right now.
Your proposal clearly focuses on the second method which I actually prefer over the first. By tying the bonuses to the modules, it encourages the use of those modules over others. This largely prevents the suit from fulfilling its intended role with bonuses alone, and then using modules/equipment/weapons to fill another role. This is what we are seeing with current scout bonuses, where passives provide a strong ability to fulfill the Scout role, and then stacking defensive mods to make them fill the Assault Role.
Applying the bonus to the modules forces the player to fit the modules that make sense for the role, and discourages trying to fill multiple roles at once. I would like to see this for ALL roles to maintain consistency and encourage singular role play. Overall I really am pleased to see that you guys decided to go this route.
Minmatar Scouts
Fitting Optimization is a no-brainer. Scouts aside, it's still that this is the only weapon that I know of that lacks this skill. This should also help a little with the MinScout's lack of resources. I'm also fine with the increase to the base hacking speed in exchange for the loss of the hack bonus. Hacking is one of those few things I'm fine with being passive all the time, and I think it fits the idea of the Minmatar Scout quite well.
The increase to Biotics is actually an idea I had also been tossing around for quite some time. Would this also include melee damage mods? I think overall this is a good choice for the Minmatar and would work well to offset their lack of eHP. The speed they would be capable of would be terrifying, but I think the low HP would properly balance this.
Gallente Scouts
Again I like the move from straight profile bonuses to dampener/extender module bonuses. I know you guys have crunched the numbers to the nth degree on Profile vs Precision, but I think I like that the base profile and low levels of dampener usages is a slight nerf since it encourages the use of those modules over armor plates.
Barring my comments on the Amarr/Caldari Scouts, one suggestion I heard which I found to be pretty interesting is to remove the range bonuses to Gal/Cal scouts and make the Amarr Scout have the big scan radius instead of the Gallente?
Caldari Scouts
Similar thoughts to the Gallente, I like to see the focus on the modules over a base bonus, as well as making lower level module usage less effective to encourage stacking enhancers over HP modules.
Amarr Scouts
So I will say that this fits the current Amarr theme of making them the most direct combat suit within their class. I only worry about this because the Assaults are so...meh right now. So going under the assumption that Assaults WILL get fixed, the Amarr scout under this fills the more 'classic scout' role of being more about movement and skill and less about intel. While this does deviate from the overall GÇ£ScoutGÇ¥ feel than the other 3 have, it's not exactly a bad thing. I think it gives the Amarr Scouts a good starting place for its own role. I do have some reservations about it, but really just trying it out in the field is the best way to really get a feel for its relative strength.
If the more direct-combat approach makes the Amarr Scout too strong, how would you feel about instead giving them the range bonus like I mentioned in the Gal/Cal sections?
Closing Thoughts
Overall really solid presentation and ideas. Very much in line with how I personally like to see things and its clear that you put a lot of time and effort into this. I think this is a really well balanced starting point and I'd like to see this sort of thing implemented. As you know I thing that concepts and numbers on paper are essential, but you can never be sure until you put it into practice, so I'd be really curious to see how these sort o changes would perform. Great work guys!
Like my ideas?
Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2151
|
Posted - 2014.06.23 07:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:o7 Pokey Thanks for weighing in! On to those questions ... Pokey Dravon wrote:
-Snip-
Currently, yes. Alternatives include applying the bonus directly to KinCats or redirecting the bonus toward fitting reduction. We opted against the first to leave more options open to the user. We opted against the second as we believe Rattati intends to overhaul resource requirements. Pokey Dravon wrote:
-Snip-
Absolutely an option. We leaned in favor of the current alternative as (1) we felt ewar specializations should only be cut so many ways, (2) we thought the eve-minded Amarr RP guys (TA, Aero, Magnus, etc) would be happier with a bonus to "light armor" and (3) there's serious demand for a brick-tanked Scout, and we don't want Gallente meeting 100% of that demand. Not to say we're deadset on the current approach, but should he prove too strong we can easily fix by dialing back the bonus.
* As an aside we tried to localize these changes such that they remain independent from the state of other frames. We fully expect Rattati to first fix Assaults.
I think keeping it open to all biotics is appropriate. I'm not a professional scout by any means but I personally prefer more stamina over more sprint speed, but that's just personal play style and I think players should have that option.
Totally understand your concerns about cutting up the EWAR too much. I think the primary reason is that I think it limits the Caldari Scout to being able to scan down just about anything, but far more limited in range. The Amarr would then fill the wide range, weaker scans. I think this would help a lot of players reservations about how they deal with the Caldari Scout's passive scans. Again I'm no expert and this is just a concept I've been thinking about on my own
Gallente Scout: Very Low Profile - Average Scans - Average Range
Caldari Scout: Average Profile - Very High Scans - Average Range
Amarr Scout: Average Profile - Average Scans - Very High Range
Minmatar Scout: Doing their own thing because stabbing people is more fun than watching the mini map.
This would allow the Caldari to cover objective areas with very high level scans, but still in a limited area. This allows them to pick up more heavily dampened units but only in the immediate area, meaning high detection but lower time to react.
The Amarr on the other hand pick up less dampened units over a very large area, meaning less detection but longer time to react. This would be more for detecting more so medium and heavy frames that are undampened, but not enough precision to pick up dampened scouts.
Minmatar would then be able to dodge most scans save for higher tiered active scanners and heavy precision enhanced Caldari Scouts. The difference being that while the Caldari could spot them, the Minmatar move quickly enough that by the time they're in range, they're still capable of getting the kill if the Caldari doesn't react fast/well enough. The Min Scout would however be able to dodge the typical Amarr Scout, meaning it could still move around undetected and only be seen once its close to a Caldari Scout.
Thoughts?
Also, have you guys had a discussion about how shared scans work? Do you think they're fair or not? Do they operate how they should?
I like the idea of shared scans though from my understanding the scans are more or less shared as long as you're withing like....200m of the scout doing the scanning? I could be wrong about that, but going under that assumption, how would you feel about passive scans only being shared if you are within the scan range of the scanning unit? For example if the scout who is scanning has a scan range of 50m, you have to be within 50m of that scout in order to receive the scan data.
Like my ideas?
Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2153
|
Posted - 2014.06.23 17:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:I like how you think, Pokey. About those questions ...
1. Makes perfect sense and is certainly feasible; one of our own (Llast) is a proponent of a similar model: CA Scout - Patrol Recon: Short Range / High Precision
AM Scout - Patrol Recon: High Range / Low Precision
GA Scout - Stealth Recon: No Scan Bonus
MN Scout - Assassin: No Scan Bonus
* Thanks to Black Jackal for upgrading our terminology :-)
** Llast, please feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.While I very much like Llast's model, my primary concern remains in that there is strong demand for a brick-tanked Scout. The demand has always existed, and it will continue to exist despite any change we make. I'd personally prefer to see that demand met by Amarr rather than Gallente, because (1) it fits our original vision for Amarr and (2) I suspect it'd be better balanced. That said, our proposal is a work-in-progress; we will revisit the Amarr Bonus in light of your input. 2. Yes, extensively (2A). We celebrated the removal of shared passives in Uprising 1.4 anticipating that it would make our lives less miserable (at that time, there weren't many Scouts). At some point following the removal of "omniscient installations", we came to suspect that passives were again being shared. There's since been no consensus on the subject; some like it, most dislike it (2B). If you're asking if the mechanics are reliable, I would say largely yes; if you're asking if there's a better way, I would say yes again (2C). A module or piece of equipment which enabled shared passives would be awesome. But it's not Christmas (and it won't be for another 6 months). 3. I'd personally prefer a gear-based solution, but both approaches (and others) have their merits. Though this is Legion-talk, and my focus is the present.
Question for CPM Candidates: There are numerous contradictory perspectives here among your peers. Given feedback thus far, which of your peers do you agree with most? And which least?
1. I'm curious if removing the stamina bonus and giving the Amarr the Ferro/Adaptive bonus as well as the scan range would make them too strong. I think it would really appeal to those Scouts looking for a tankier suit that is designed more for fighting larger frames that can be scanned down, with the HP to actually pull that off. They would however be the most susceptible to enemy scans, thus making them easily spottable, and the lack of precise scans would make them weak against other scouts.
This is of course going under the assumption that Assaults get a serious buff, as this proposed Amarr Scout clearly is the bridge between the two roles.
2. & 3. A module to share scans would be pretty legit. What if you had to be within X meters to pick up on the shared scans and have that be a pretty small range, and then adding modules would increase that range at which scans are shared?
CPM1 Question. Going off this thread alone and those who have posted their opinions, Cross seems to see most eye-to-eye with me. Glancing over those who disagree, it tends to be a disagreement on specific issues that vary from person to person. I'm at work so I can't really read too deeply right now, but I'll try to figure out who I differ from the most probably on my lunch hour.
Like my ideas?
Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2155
|
Posted - 2014.06.23 18:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
1. I'm curious if removing the stamina bonus and giving the Amarr the Ferro/Adaptive bonus as well as the scan range would make them too strong. (?)
2. & 3. A module to share scans would be pretty legit. What if you had to be within X meters to pick up on the shared scans and have that be a pretty small range, and then adding modules would increase that range at which scans are shared?
1. The very same thought crossed my mind; yes, I think it'd be too strong; certainly too strong for one iteration. 2. Seems you'd be better off running an active scanner; though I've not thoroughly thought this through :-) th (x5)
1. Yes, multiple iterations are best. I'd suggest moving forward with keeping the stamina and giving them the bonus to armor, see how the scan dynamic plays out and see if Amarr needs more or not.
2. Well thats somewhat the point. Passive scans are on constantly, you can be fighting while they're on, and they're omnidirectional. A lot of advantages over that of the Active Scanner, so the active scanner does need some advantages other than just precision. At that level of design it really comes down to grinding out the numbers to get true balance. However for conceptual purposes I think giving shared passive scans the ability to be enhanced at a sacrifice is pretty reasonable.
Like my ideas?
Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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