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Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6089	Posted - 2014.06.18 22:18:00 - [1] - Quote Some discussion going on in the Skype channels about a simple concept of reducing the heavy frame's hacking speed modifier, providing an intuitive change that would encourage tactical decision making without being confrontational to what the Heavy is all about (point defense). Would like to get outside opinions, so feel free to comment. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Mossellia Delt Militaires Sans Jeux 1535	Posted - 2014.06.18 22:20:00 - [2] - Quote The sentinel and heavy frame could be good, the commando I don't agree with at all. Delt for CPM1 Moss-delt on skype
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6089	Posted - 2014.06.18 22:21:00 - [3] - Quote Mossellia Delt wrote: The sentinel and heavy frame could be good, the commando I don't agree with at all. Right, wasn't considering this applying to the entire spectrum of heavies. If it did happen to the Commando, I'd say it should be to a lesser extent. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2731	Posted - 2014.06.18 22:41:00 - [4] - Quote My view is this: Heavy use is not going to reduce significantly or noticeably based on a hacking speed nerf. I'm of dubious view that even removing hacking would have a significant effect in either pubs or PC. I feel such a change would likely be arbitrary, and not provide any real meaningful gameplay change. In pubs, people are more concerned about playing their preferred class over winning the match, and in PC, heavies are generally supported by logis or other players would could easily hack the point. If you want to fix heavy proliferation, fixing assaults is the way to go. I'm against it because I'm not convinced it has merit. I have no particular beef with the concept of changing hack speeds on suits, I just don't feel it has a point, and I don't like inconsistencies that don't have a point. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3754	Posted - 2014.06.18 22:48:00 - [5] - Quote Sentinels are the only suit that do not have Equipment. If you take away hacking they will only get War Points from Kills and Assists. Sentinels already get less WP than any other class. If this goes through they will get substantially less WP than any other class. I am not apposed to the idea of making hacking more difficult for Sentinels, or even removing the ability for Sentinels to hack all together, but only if a way is found to reward Sentinels for point defense, which I believe to be the SentinelGÇÖs primary role. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Mossellia Delt Militaires Sans Jeux 1535	Posted - 2014.06.18 22:56:00 - [6] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Sentinels are the only suit that do not have Equipment. If you take away hacking they will only get War Points from Kills and Assists. Sentinels already get less WP than any other class. If this goes through they will get substantially less WP than any other class. I am not apposed to the idea of making hacking more difficult for Sentinels, or even removing the ability for Sentinels to hack all together, but only if a way is found to reward Sentinels for point defense, which I believe to be the SentinelGÇÖs primary role. I disagree with getting less WP's as seen here Delt for CPM1 Moss-delt on skype
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6090	Posted - 2014.06.18 23:03:00 - [7] - Quote Mossellia Delt wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Sentinels are the only suit that do not have Equipment. If you take away hacking they will only get War Points from Kills and Assists. Sentinels already get less WP than any other class. If this goes through they will get substantially less WP than any other class. I am not apposed to the idea of making hacking more difficult for Sentinels, or even removing the ability for Sentinels to hack all together, but only if a way is found to reward Sentinels for point defense, which I believe to be the SentinelGÇÖs primary role. I disagree with getting less WP's as seen here Hahaha, well, while I applaud the screenshot it is anecdotal evidence so we can't assume that -ALL- heavies will wind up with thousands of WP. It is an interesting consideration. Honestly, I'm of the volition that the only thing WP are good for outside of orbitals in pubs (and PC? Not sure if they ever removed warbarge strikes there?) is the end of match screen and leaderboards. Which, if you're worried about that as a Heavy, you're probably playing the role all wrong to begin with and should switch over to Logistics. For that reason, I don't think it bears as much as weight as moment-to-moment tactical/strategical play. I'd much rather heavies make the conscious decision to -defend- the person hacking as opposed to hacking it themselves for the sake "gettin' moar pointses". Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2420	Posted - 2014.06.19 00:43:00 - [8] - Quote Mossellia Delt wrote: The sentinel and heavy frame could be good, the commando I don't agree with at all. Raises a good point, honestly I don't believe all three should be treated equally. I'm not opposed to some degree of reduction for all three but I wouldn't scale it the same. Likely (from lowest speed to greatest) Sent > frame > Commando. Further the racial paradigms should still apply (though to a somewhat lessor degree) likely in this order (again lowest to greatest) Gal > Amarr > Cal > Min. [Note: for anyone who cares I run the Amarr Sent] 0.02 ISK Cross P.S. ~ As to the concerns raised by Fox, tracking for average earnings across all three groups (Sent, frame, mando) should be observed in the wake of any such change and measures taken to correct for shortfalls if the data demonstrates any. Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 86	Posted - 2014.06.19 00:53:00 - [9] - Quote heavy speed is same as medium and scout its then differentiated by factors like hacking skill and hacking moduals and in some instances Race+suit (see minmatar scout) i agree with the person who said about commandos.. they need medium suit hacking speed.. sentinels idk.. they are already point starved as it is so making it harder to get points is just pissing on them and people will likely stop playing them. if we were to change the hacking times over the suits this would make minmatar scouts supreme at hacking.. level 5 min scout -25% hack time.. hacking 5 another 25% and then hacking modual im guessing 10 to 15% (havnt looked at them recently) so here we have -65% hack time.. that could be severely unbalanced but perhaps a niche for minmatar cloakly-novaknife scouts to fill? Minmatar Logibro in training. Rusty needles anyone? No Mic and no time for "Squeekers" Nerf scout cloak+shotgun
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 86	Posted - 2014.06.19 01:02:00 - [10] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Mossellia Delt wrote: The sentinel and heavy frame could be good, the commando I don't agree with at all. Raises a good point, honestly I don't believe all three should be treated equally. I'm not opposed to some degree of reduction for all three but I wouldn't scale it the same. Likely (from lowest speed to greatest) Sent > frame > Commando. Further the racial paradigms should still apply (though to a somewhat lessor degree) likely in this order (again lowest to greatest) Gal > Amarr > Cal > Min. [Note: for anyone who cares I run the Amarr Sent] 0.02 ISK Cross P.S. ~ As to the concerns raised by Fox, tracking for average earnings across all three groups (Sent, frame, mando) should be observed in the wake of any such change and measures taken to correct for shortfalls if the data demonstrates any. EDIT: Worth considering looking at a scaled hacking higherarcy of mild intensity to increase niche play. Low to high; Heavy types > Assault > Logi > Scout types. [This assumes the needed buff to assault slaying power is also implemented]. there is already a niche.. minjas (minmatar scouts) as i posted they can get -50% or higher on hacking speed time and yet people still preferr amarr scout for slot layout.. caldari for superior CPU for cloak and shotty and w/e else.. and gallente for being invisable form scanning. how about we broke it up into basics... lets say default hack time for a point is 15 seconds light basic 12 scout 10 medium basic 15 seconds logi 12 seconds assault 12 seconds (giveing more emphasis to assaults) heavy basic 20 seconds sent 18 seconds commando 15 seconds (giving more usefulness to commandos) hows these numbers sound? but this would mean devaluing or removing hacking skill, hacking per level(from min scout) and hacking moduals. Minmatar Logibro in training. Rusty needles anyone? No Mic and no time for "Squeekers" Nerf scout cloak+shotgun

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3755	Posted - 2014.06.19 01:02:00 - [11] - Quote Mossellia Delt wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Sentinels are the only suit that do not have Equipment. If you take away hacking they will only get War Points from Kills and Assists. Sentinels already get less WP than any other class. If this goes through they will get substantially less WP than any other class. I am not apposed to the idea of making hacking more difficult for Sentinels, or even removing the ability for Sentinels to hack all together, but only if a way is found to reward Sentinels for point defense, which I believe to be the SentinelGÇÖs primary role. I disagree with getting less WP's as seen here That is 1150 WP from kills. Where did the other 2075 WP come from? Do you think he got 83 Kill assists? Or do you think he hacked a lot of stuff? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 86	Posted - 2014.06.19 01:04:00 - [12] - Quote Mossellia Delt wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Sentinels are the only suit that do not have Equipment. If you take away hacking they will only get War Points from Kills and Assists. Sentinels already get less WP than any other class. If this goes through they will get substantially less WP than any other class. I am not apposed to the idea of making hacking more difficult for Sentinels, or even removing the ability for Sentinels to hack all together, but only if a way is found to reward Sentinels for point defense, which I believe to be the SentinelGÇÖs primary role. I disagree with getting less WP's as seen here musta been a good game with alot of back and forth on an urban map.. hardly see heavys in the 1500s unless its enclosed and urban with a meatgrinder back and forth. Minmatar Logibro in training. Rusty needles anyone? No Mic and no time for "Squeekers" Nerf scout cloak+shotgun
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3755	Posted - 2014.06.19 01:06:00 - [13] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Mossellia Delt wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Sentinels are the only suit that do not have Equipment. If you take away hacking they will only get War Points from Kills and Assists. Sentinels already get less WP than any other class. If this goes through they will get substantially less WP than any other class. I am not apposed to the idea of making hacking more difficult for Sentinels, or even removing the ability for Sentinels to hack all together, but only if a way is found to reward Sentinels for point defense, which I believe to be the SentinelGÇÖs primary role. I disagree with getting less WP's as seen here Hahaha, well, while I applaud the screenshot it is anecdotal evidence so we can't assume that -ALL- heavies will wind up with thousands of WP. It is an interesting consideration. Honestly, I'm of the volition that the only thing WP are good for outside of orbitals in pubs (and PC? Not sure if they ever removed warbarge strikes there?) is the end of match screen and leaderboards. Which, if you're worried about that as a Heavy, you're probably playing the role all wrong to begin with and should switch over to Logistics. For that reason, I don't think it bears as much as weight as moment-to-moment tactical/strategical play. I'd much rather heavies make the conscious decision to -defend- the person hacking as opposed to hacking it themselves for the sake "gettin' moar pointses". WP has a direct effect on the amount of ISK and Skill Points earned in the battle. I average 120K ISK in a match. How much ISK do you normally make? You are basically saying that Sentinels should not be paid as much as other classes. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 86	Posted - 2014.06.19 01:09:00 - [14] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Mossellia Delt wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Sentinels are the only suit that do not have Equipment. If you take away hacking they will only get War Points from Kills and Assists. Sentinels already get less WP than any other class. If this goes through they will get substantially less WP than any other class. I am not apposed to the idea of making hacking more difficult for Sentinels, or even removing the ability for Sentinels to hack all together, but only if a way is found to reward Sentinels for point defense, which I believe to be the SentinelGÇÖs primary role. I disagree with getting less WP's as seen here That is 1150 WP from kills. Where did the other 2075 WP come from? Do you think he got 83 Kill assists? Or do you think he hacked a lot of stuff? hack assists..counter hack assists maybe assists on vehicles with flux nades? destroying equipment? delivering orbital into the ass of many recipients all dog piled like nub-cakes? i get my points that high or higher from kill assists, kills, hacks&assists (and/or counter hacks/assists), Drop uplink spam, revives, reps, ammo, vehical dmg* , vehical kill assist* *if im running AV or flux nades or RE Minmatar Logibro in training. Rusty needles anyone? No Mic and no time for "Squeekers" Nerf scout cloak+shotgun
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3755	Posted - 2014.06.19 01:10:00 - [15] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Some discussion going on in the Skype channels about a simple concept of reducing the heavy frame's hacking speed modifier, providing an intuitive change that would encourage tactical decision making without being confrontational to what the Heavy is all about (point defense). Would like to get outside opinions, so feel free to comment. Does this apply to both Hack and Counter Hack? What is a Sentinel supposed to do if they are defending an objective solo and they donGÇÖt kill the guy in time to stop the hack? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3755	Posted - 2014.06.19 01:18:00 - [16] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Mossellia Delt wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Sentinels are the only suit that do not have Equipment. If you take away hacking they will only get War Points from Kills and Assists. Sentinels already get less WP than any other class. If this goes through they will get substantially less WP than any other class. I am not apposed to the idea of making hacking more difficult for Sentinels, or even removing the ability for Sentinels to hack all together, but only if a way is found to reward Sentinels for point defense, which I believe to be the SentinelGÇÖs primary role. I disagree with getting less WP's as seen here That is 1150 WP from kills. Where did the other 2075 WP come from? Do you think he got 83 Kill assists? Or do you think he hacked a lot of stuff? hack assists..counter hack assists maybe assists on vehicles with flux nades? destroying equipment? delivering orbital into the ass of many recipients all dog piled like nub-cakes? i get my points that high or higher from kill assists, kills, hacks&assists (and/or counter hacks/assists), Drop uplink spam, revives, reps, ammo, vehical dmg* , vehical kill assist* *if im running AV or flux nades or RE - If Hacks, then that would be a lot harder with a hack nerf. - If he was a squad lead, you canGÇÖt use a squad leadGÇÖs WP in a WP balance discussion. Being Squad Lead greatly inflates your WP no mater which Class you are. - You make a good point about AV grenades. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Thokk Nightshade KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND 391	Posted - 2014.06.19 02:30:00 - [17] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Sentinels are the only suit that do not have Equipment. If you take away hacking they will only get War Points from Kills and Assists. Sentinels already get less WP than any other class. If this goes through they will get substantially less WP than any other class. I am not apposed to the idea of making hacking more difficult for Sentinels, or even removing the ability for Sentinels to hack all together, but only if a way is found to reward Sentinels for point defense, which I believe to be the SentinelGÇÖs primary role. Just throwing this out there, but what about Sentinels (hell, anyone) gets +15 WP for kills within 10 Meters of an Objective that is already friendly? This could be further detailed to say only Null Cannons or widened out to say all structures (turrets, Clone Spawn Points, Supply Depots) but other objectives only get +5 because they are not as "critical" (not trying to use the term to loosely). Personally, I think it could be restricted to Null Cannons only, but that is just an opinion. This would give Sentinels their reward for point defense, because the Sentinel is defending/protecting the objective as a good Sentinel is supposed to be doing. Anyone can get the points, but Sentinels would be the best at this and would (likely) rack in more WP because of the bonus. Any thoughts Fox Gaden? Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 2025	Posted - 2014.06.19 02:49:00 - [18] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Honestly, I'm of the volition that the only thing WP are good for outside of orbitals in pubs ... is the end of match screen and leaderboards. Which, if you're worried about that as a Heavy, you're probably playing the role all wrong to begin with and should switch over to Logistics. And, you know, this thing called SP as well as ISK, seeing as ISK is based on how much WP you have in comparison to the rest of the team, and SP has a direct relation to time and WP (1 every 200ms and 1 per WP). ISK and especially SP are rather important to me as a heavy. "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 567	Posted - 2014.06.19 02:51:00 - [19] - Quote Hacking speed changes make sense I suppose. As long as it increases the amount of time it takes to recall a vehicle as a heavy, I'm all for it. Proto Sentinals in vehicles really grinds my gears... Melee Weapon of Choice: Nokia-3310 Prof. V
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2431	Posted - 2014.06.19 03:15:00 - [20] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Some discussion going on in the Skype channels about a simple concept of reducing the heavy frame's hacking speed modifier, providing an intuitive change that would encourage tactical decision making without being confrontational to what the Heavy is all about (point defense). Would like to get outside opinions, so feel free to comment. Does this apply to both Hack and Counter Hack? What is a Sentinel supposed to do if they are defending an objective solo and they donGÇÖt kill the guy in time to stop the hack? Side note here, while it absolutely does happen with any class I don't think we should be supporting 'solo play' compared to squad play. Dust is a team game and while being viable in a 1v1 situation shouldn't be removed by any means balance and refinement should support squad play more fully than solo play. Anyone who's defending a point solo, regardless of suit, is acting as a force multiplier. This should be a tactical asset with tradeoffs not a standard protocol that's supported by game balance. 0.02 ISK Cross Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2436	Posted - 2014.06.19 03:36:00 - [21] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Mossellia Delt wrote: The sentinel and heavy frame could be good, the commando I don't agree with at all. Raises a good point, honestly I don't believe all three should be treated equally. I'm not opposed to some degree of reduction for all three but I wouldn't scale it the same. Likely (from lowest speed to greatest) Sent > frame > Commando. Further the racial paradigms should still apply (though to a somewhat lessor degree) likely in this order (again lowest to greatest) Gal > Amarr > Cal > Min. [Note: for anyone who cares I run the Amarr Sent] 0.02 ISK Cross P.S. ~ As to the concerns raised by Fox, tracking for average earnings across all three groups (Sent, frame, mando) should be observed in the wake of any such change and measures taken to correct for shortfalls if the data demonstrates any. EDIT: Worth considering looking at a scaled hacking higherarcy of mild intensity to increase niche play. Low to high; Heavy types > Assault > Logi > Scout types. [This assumes the needed buff to assault slaying power is also implemented]. there is already a niche.. minjas (minmatar scouts) as i posted they can get -50% or higher on hacking speed time and yet people still preferr amarr scout for slot layout.. caldari for superior CPU for cloak and shotty and w/e else.. and gallente for being invisable form scanning. Yes the MinScout is present, there's some debate about how viable it is, but it's present. The specific of what I was saying however is "to increase niche play" which extends beyond a single suit. You see if we scale things with a mild base hack speed disparity by both frame type and racial paradigm then the number of niches (even if only an understated part of them) increases. Further if the more 'combat monster' fits/frames are less capable of hacking and counter-hacking that makes squad play stronger. There's less reason to "lone wolf" or go 'all guns' if your squad/team loses a notable asset by doing so, in essence if there's a trade off. Apothecary Za'ki wrote: how about we broke it up into basics... lets say default hack time for a point is 15 seconds light basic 12 scout 10 medium basic 15 seconds logi 12 seconds assault 12 seconds (giveing more emphasis to assaults) heavy basic 20 seconds sent 18 seconds commando 15 seconds (giving more usefulness to commandos) Leaving aside the literal times I'd have a few conceptual comments. In essence the more combat viable a frame the slower the hacking speed (by a mild degree). Having the Commando be faster than the Sent makes sense but I wouldn't bring it to the same level as the med per se, close is fine but it still has more HP, the LW flex and the dmg/reload buffs. Logi is less combat viable than the Assault (again proposal assumes proper buff to Assault dps output) and should hack faster on a race by race basis. Scouts are most fragile with infiltration and evasion as their theme, fast base hack times make sense. What this accomplishes is encouraging more diverse squad compositions whether on point defense or roaming. It allows for some racial diversity (Min is lower HP and could hack faster for example). Apothecary Za'ki wrote: hows these numbers sound? but this would mean devaluing or removing hacking skill, hacking per level(from min scout) and hacking moduals. I'm not in favor of devaluing any of the MinScout role skill, Code breakers, or infantry hacking skill. Specific numbers and hack times should be scaled in such a manner than there can be an arc to hacking speeds without removing the validity of these already present assets (development resources are slim currently, we need to keep use of all the assets we currently possess in game). It is important to note however that my entire concept is predicated on an asymmetrical approach. Suts/fits will not be equally capable of all things if this method is used and there will be an inverse relationship between killing power and hacking speed. This relationship will not be 1:1 due to hacking being not quite as potent as slaying, and further since neither of them are the sole other factor to balance against. It would however afford us the opportunity to create more shades of grey within the game, more diversity. Where we talk about Cal Assault, Min Heavy, Gal Logi, Amarr Scout, - or other racial specifics rather than discuss things so often in terms of "Assault", "Heavy", "Scout" as is currently the case. Am I making any sense or do I need to take another crack at explaining myself? Thanks for the continuing conversation Cheers, Cross Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3762	Posted - 2014.06.19 15:31:00 - [22] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Some discussion going on in the Skype channels about a simple concept of reducing the heavy frame's hacking speed modifier, providing an intuitive change that would encourage tactical decision making without being confrontational to what the Heavy is all about (point defense). Would like to get outside opinions, so feel free to comment. Does this apply to both Hack and Counter Hack? What is a Sentinel supposed to do if they are defending an objective solo and they donGÇÖt kill the guy in time to stop the hack? Side note here, while it absolutely does happen with any class I don't think we should be supporting 'solo play' compared to squad play. Dust is a team game and while being viable in a 1v1 situation shouldn't be removed by any means balance and refinement should support squad play more fully than solo play. Anyone who's defending a point solo, regardless of suit, is acting as a force multiplier. This should be a tactical asset with tradeoffs not a standard protocol that's supported by game balance. 0.02 ISK Cross It is standard Squad tactics to leave one person guarding outlaying objectives, while the rest of the squad operates in more hotly contested areas. - Can defend against minor threats. - Can assess and communicate threat leaves so that the rest of the Squad can react before the enemy start hacking. - Can tie up enemy troops in outlying areas, keeping them out of the main battle. If one guy can keep 3 to 5 enemy occupied in outlaying areas, it gives your team the advantage of numbers where the main fighting is happening. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3762	Posted - 2014.06.19 15:34:00 - [23] - Quote Thokk Nightshade referenced a suggestion that had come up in an early post I had made on this subject. I was planning to post it here anyway. I suggest the following: - Sentinel Hack speed changed to match counter-hack speed. - Sentinel Counter Hack speed unchanged (or possibly buffed slightly) - Sentinels given an additional 10 WP for kills (5 WP for Assists) within 30m of a friendly objective. This would reinforce the role of Sentinels as defenders, and reward them for playing that role. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2436	Posted - 2014.06.19 16:02:00 - [24] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Some discussion going on in the Skype channels about a simple concept of reducing the heavy frame's hacking speed modifier, providing an intuitive change that would encourage tactical decision making without being confrontational to what the Heavy is all about (point defense). Would like to get outside opinions, so feel free to comment. Does this apply to both Hack and Counter Hack? What is a Sentinel supposed to do if they are defending an objective solo and they donGÇÖt kill the guy in time to stop the hack? Side note here, while it absolutely does happen with any class I don't think we should be supporting 'solo play' compared to squad play. Dust is a team game and while being viable in a 1v1 situation shouldn't be removed by any means balance and refinement should support squad play more fully than solo play. Anyone who's defending a point solo, regardless of suit, is acting as a force multiplier. This should be a tactical asset with tradeoffs not a standard protocol that's supported by game balance. 0.02 ISK Cross It is standard Squad tactics to leave one person guarding outlaying objectives, while the rest of the squad operates in more hotly contested areas. - Can defend against minor threats. - Can assess and communicate threat leaves so that the rest of the Squad can react before the enemy start hacking. - Can tie up enemy troops in outlying areas, keeping them out of the main battle. If one guy can keep 3 to 5 enemy occupied in outlaying areas, it gives your team the advantage of numbers where the main fighting is happening. All of which can still be accomplished with the proposed change, it just requires more tactical/squad planing to pull off. Either the defender has to have a higher level of player skill such that the objective remains hacked and thus hacking skills are not required, the defender needs to become defenders working in concert with each other, one providing support/eWar/hack and the other being front line, or the defender must shoulder somewhat greater risk in counter hacking if they are unable to keep hostile forces off the panel. The tactical application is still present, just not as easy to execute. Which I honestly thing is a very good thing. I run that role frequently in my squads (as recently as last night for example), and I've done it in more than one suit type, race and fittings configuration. I do not have the best 'gun game' in dust and I am still consistently able to thwart pushes onto an objective. This is especially true in my Amarr Heavy where even three hostiles walking through the door towards me usually won't survive. A heavy is great point defense so I'm totally fine with being able to kill greater numbers of opposing forces who make the mistake of pushing against a heavy head on, however it feels somewhat incongruous to be able to use the objective panel as bait to ambush the opposing forces and then counter hack it (for extra points) and resume a hiding spot before the hostiles have spawned back in for another push. Solo point defense is a force multiplier, it's a useful tactic, and yes it is standard practice in many ways. None of that however means it is something which game balance should be built around. Everything powerful and effective will naturally become standard practice. The question isn't "does this get used a lot" but rather "how does this make sense/not make sense". If you're in a squad with high enough player skill it becomes standard practice to break into small fire teams and keep guys on every objective, it's effective, it's a force multiplier, it provides map "omni" awareness, but that does not directly translate into a need for such tactics to be mechanically preserved/protected via in game balance choices. Fox Gaden wrote: Thokk Nightshade referenced a suggestion that had come up in an early post I had made on this subject. I was planning to post it here anyway. I suggest the following: - Sentinel Hack speed changed to match counter-hack speed. - Sentinel Counter Hack speed unchanged (or possibly buffed slightly) - Sentinels given an additional 10 WP for kills (5 WP for Assists) within 30m of a friendly objective. This would reinforce the role of Sentinels as defenders, and reward them for playing that role. Proposal seems mostly solid, at least 1 & 3 I readily support. Point 2 I'm more dubious about, I know outright that buffing counter hack feels conceptually dubious, leaving it the same ... maybe... I don't know I'm conflicted. Honestly the counter hack speed more than the base hack speed, contributes to Sentinels (alone or sometimes groups composed only of them) "lone wolfing" objectives without meaningful drawback. The objective is where they fight so mobility matters less, self reps are powerful so they don't need support there, the objective is a spawn point, and presuming there are limited entry points eWar also has no substantial relevance. If the only suit type needed to effectively hold down an objective is a heavy suit that seems to at lest flirt with, if not outright wade into, marginalization of other niches/roles. Conceptually, why should a heavy counter hack quickly, especially if they're getting bonus WP for kills and assists near a friendly objective? Isn't that reward specifically in place for defending the objective from being hacked? (To be clear, questions are non-rhetorical) Cheers, Cross Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3765	Posted - 2014.06.19 17:10:00 - [25] - Quote As long as I have played this game I have heard people saying that Sentinels are for Point Defence. If that is supposed to be our role, then we should have the tools to fulfill that role. When a Sentinel is defending a point it is common for an enemy to slip past the Sentinel when he is looking the other way, and hack the point when the Sentinel is around the corner. Because the Sentinel moves more slowly than other suits, it gives the enemy a bit more time to hack. I have so often seen the point I am guarding start to flash and come around the corner just as the hack finishes. If Sentinels are not able to Counter-Hack then another suit will have to be left to defend instead of the Sentinel. The Sentinel could stay as a bodyguard for the defender, but that leaves the rest of the squad down two men instead of just 1. So the Sentinels will mostly likely be wanted on the front line if they donGÇÖt have the tools to defend the point. I think forcing Sentinels into the Assault role is counter to the intent of this thread. I suggested considering a small buff to Counter-Hacking because we were discussing a major nerf to hacking speed with no corresponding benefit proposed. I felt that if Sentinels were supposed to be the defending class, then why not give them a small advantage when defending? But I am not tied to the idea of a slight buff to Counter-Hacking speed. It was just an idea I wanted to float for discussion. The 10 WP bonus for kills within 30m of a friendly objective is something I would like to see for Sentinels regardless of whether there is a Hacking nerf, as a WP balance for not having an Equipment slot. (The lack of an equipment slot was meant as a functional balance. The resulting loss of WP potential was an unintentional side effect.) Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2423	Posted - 2014.06.19 17:51:00 - [26] - Quote Yes. Heavy and sentinal. Would reduce their ability to play point defense exclusively.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6094	Posted - 2014.06.19 18:00:00 - [27] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: As long as I have played this game I have heard people saying that Sentinels are for Point Defence. If that is supposed to be our role, then we should have the tools to fulfill that role. When a Sentinel is defending a point it is common for an enemy to slip past the Sentinel when he is looking the other way, and hack the point when the Sentinel is around the corner. Because the Sentinel moves more slowly than other suits, it gives the enemy a bit more time to hack. I have so often seen the point I am guarding start to flash and come around the corner just as the hack finishes. If Sentinels are not able to Counter-Hack then another suit will have to be left to defend instead of the Sentinel. The Sentinel could stay as a bodyguard for the defender, but that leaves the rest of the squad down two men instead of just 1. So the Sentinels will mostly likely be wanted on the front line if they donGÇÖt have the tools to defend the point. I think forcing Sentinels into the Assault role is counter to the intent of this thread. I suggested considering a small buff to Counter-Hacking because we were discussing a major nerf to hacking speed with no corresponding benefit proposed. I felt that if Sentinels were supposed to be the defending class, then why not give them a small advantage when defending? But I am not tied to the idea of a slight buff to Counter-Hacking speed. It was just an idea I wanted to float for discussion. The 10 WP bonus for kills within 30m of a friendly objective is something I would like to see for Sentinels regardless of whether there is a Hacking nerf, as a WP balance for not having an Equipment slot. (The lack of an equipment slot was meant as a functional balance. The resulting loss of WP potential was an unintentional side effect.) IMO, there's nothing wrong with rectifying this problem by having two people on the objective - if a single guy is all it takes to defend an objective then the fact that he got out-maneuvering and the objective got hacked doesn't bother me that much. He should have been closer to the objective, or he should had more people with him. As far as "major nerf" to hacking speed, there was no such thing. There have not been any number proposals in this thread at all and the assumption that it's a "major nerf" leads me to believe that we're on two different wavelengths as far as the amount of reduction. Someone earlier said 'removal' and I strongly disagree with this, it shouldn't be removed all together but I do feel it should be lessened to insinuate more on: a) Legitimate effort toward point defense, meaning: Killing the guy -before- he hacks the objective. b) The heavy not being used to 'push' objectives (which they're doing a lot of lately). In the same sense, while I do like suggestions for better WP accrual for different things, I've always hated WP in general. The fact that ISK/SP is associated with it drives me bonkers and further more, the tournament at Fanfest was WP-based... so the entire tournament was four/five Logistics running around repairing one Sentinel competing for upwards of 5000 WP's in cases. That being said, if your primary goal is to gain WP and not actually play the game... Might be time to reconsider your specialization Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3786	Posted - 2014.06.20 11:44:00 - [28] - Quote If you want to define the role of the Sentinel as not a Hacker you have to give them a major nerf to hacking speed or take the ability away. If you only give them a minor nerf to Hacking Speed, then they will still feel obligated to hack. All a minor nerf to Hacking Speed does is insures that Sentinels die more often while hacking. That is not role definition. That is just a nerf Heavies proposal. If you donGÇÖt want Sentinels to hack, then you have to give them a good excuse not to. You need to make other suits clearly and measurably better at hacking, so that the Sentinel does not feel obligated to sacrifice himself for the good of the team. This means either a major nerf or removing the ability to hack all together. I am 100% against a GÇ£minorGÇ¥ nerf to Sentinel Hacking Speed! A major nerf to hacking speed, or removing the ability to hack, on the other hand, would measurably increase my KDR, because a significant number of my deaths occur while hacking. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6109	Posted - 2014.06.20 11:52:00 - [29] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: If you want to define the role of the Sentinel as not a Hacker you have to give them a major nerf to hacking speed or take the ability away. If you only give them a minor nerf to Hacking Speed, then they will still feel obligated to hack. All a minor nerf to Hacking Speed does is insures that Sentinels die more often while hacking. That is not role definition. That is just a nerf Heavies proposal. If you donGÇÖt want Sentinels to hack, then you have to give them a good excuse not to. You need to make other suits clearly and measurably better at hacking, so that the Sentinel does not feel obligated to sacrifice himself for the good of the team. This means either a major nerf or removing the ability to hack all together. I am 100% against a GÇ£minorGÇ¥ nerf to Sentinel Hacking Speed! A major nerf to hacking speed, or removing the ability to hack, on the other hand, would measurably increase my KDR, because a significant number of my deaths occur while hacking. This goes right back to what classifies as minor/major and to whom, though. Imo, anything more than 50% is too much, anything less than 25% is negligible (undone by Systems Hacking skill). That's just my personal thoughts on it though. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 552	Posted - 2014.06.20 13:16:00 - [30] - Quote The problem with heavies hacking in PC is that they can just continue to hack no matter whats hitting them due to the amount of eHP they have, so its sometimes tactically better to call in a gal sent with full plates to hack an objective than a min scout, which makes 0 sense What all Minjas are thinking as they play... Yellow Heavy, Red Heavy...



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