DUST Search - Heavy Frame Hacking Speed

Aeon Amadi wrote:

Mossellia Delt wrote:

Fox Gaden wrote:

Sentinels are the only suit that do not have Equipment. If you take away hacking they will only get War Points from Kills and Assists.

Sentinels already get less WP than any other class. If this goes through they will get substantially less WP than any other class.

I am not apposed to the idea of making hacking more difficult for Sentinels, or even removing the ability for Sentinels to hack all together, but only if a way is found to reward Sentinels for point defense, which I believe to be the SentinelGÇÖs primary role.

I disagree with getting less WP's as seen here

Hahaha, well, while I applaud the screenshot it is anecdotal evidence so we can't assume that -ALL- heavies will wind up with thousands of WP. It is an interesting consideration.

Honestly, I'm of the volition that the only thing WP are good for outside of orbitals in pubs (and PC? Not sure if they ever removed warbarge strikes there?) is the end of match screen and leaderboards. Which, if you're worried about that as a Heavy, you're probably playing the role all wrong to begin with and should switch over to Logistics. For that reason, I don't think it bears as much as weight as moment-to-moment tactical/strategical play.

I'd much rather heavies make the conscious decision to -defend- the person hacking as opposed to hacking it themselves for the sake "gettin' moar pointses".

Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.


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Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3754	Posted - 2014.06.18 22:48:00 - [1] - Quote Sentinels are the only suit that do not have Equipment. If you take away hacking they will only get War Points from Kills and Assists. Sentinels already get less WP than any other class. If this goes through they will get substantially less WP than any other class. I am not apposed to the idea of making hacking more difficult for Sentinels, or even removing the ability for Sentinels to hack all together, but only if a way is found to reward Sentinels for point defense, which I believe to be the SentinelGÇÖs primary role. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3755	Posted - 2014.06.19 01:02:00 - [2] - Quote Mossellia Delt wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Sentinels are the only suit that do not have Equipment. If you take away hacking they will only get War Points from Kills and Assists. Sentinels already get less WP than any other class. If this goes through they will get substantially less WP than any other class. I am not apposed to the idea of making hacking more difficult for Sentinels, or even removing the ability for Sentinels to hack all together, but only if a way is found to reward Sentinels for point defense, which I believe to be the SentinelGÇÖs primary role. I disagree with getting less WP's as seen here That is 1150 WP from kills. Where did the other 2075 WP come from? Do you think he got 83 Kill assists? Or do you think he hacked a lot of stuff? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3755	Posted - 2014.06.19 01:06:00 - [3] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Mossellia Delt wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Sentinels are the only suit that do not have Equipment. If you take away hacking they will only get War Points from Kills and Assists. Sentinels already get less WP than any other class. If this goes through they will get substantially less WP than any other class. I am not apposed to the idea of making hacking more difficult for Sentinels, or even removing the ability for Sentinels to hack all together, but only if a way is found to reward Sentinels for point defense, which I believe to be the SentinelGÇÖs primary role. I disagree with getting less WP's as seen here Hahaha, well, while I applaud the screenshot it is anecdotal evidence so we can't assume that -ALL- heavies will wind up with thousands of WP. It is an interesting consideration. Honestly, I'm of the volition that the only thing WP are good for outside of orbitals in pubs (and PC? Not sure if they ever removed warbarge strikes there?) is the end of match screen and leaderboards. Which, if you're worried about that as a Heavy, you're probably playing the role all wrong to begin with and should switch over to Logistics. For that reason, I don't think it bears as much as weight as moment-to-moment tactical/strategical play. I'd much rather heavies make the conscious decision to -defend- the person hacking as opposed to hacking it themselves for the sake "gettin' moar pointses". WP has a direct effect on the amount of ISK and Skill Points earned in the battle. I average 120K ISK in a match. How much ISK do you normally make? You are basically saying that Sentinels should not be paid as much as other classes. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3755	Posted - 2014.06.19 01:10:00 - [4] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Some discussion going on in the Skype channels about a simple concept of reducing the heavy frame's hacking speed modifier, providing an intuitive change that would encourage tactical decision making without being confrontational to what the Heavy is all about (point defense). Would like to get outside opinions, so feel free to comment. Does this apply to both Hack and Counter Hack? What is a Sentinel supposed to do if they are defending an objective solo and they donGÇÖt kill the guy in time to stop the hack? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3755	Posted - 2014.06.19 01:18:00 - [5] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Mossellia Delt wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Sentinels are the only suit that do not have Equipment. If you take away hacking they will only get War Points from Kills and Assists. Sentinels already get less WP than any other class. If this goes through they will get substantially less WP than any other class. I am not apposed to the idea of making hacking more difficult for Sentinels, or even removing the ability for Sentinels to hack all together, but only if a way is found to reward Sentinels for point defense, which I believe to be the SentinelGÇÖs primary role. I disagree with getting less WP's as seen here That is 1150 WP from kills. Where did the other 2075 WP come from? Do you think he got 83 Kill assists? Or do you think he hacked a lot of stuff? hack assists..counter hack assists maybe assists on vehicles with flux nades? destroying equipment? delivering orbital into the ass of many recipients all dog piled like nub-cakes? i get my points that high or higher from kill assists, kills, hacks&assists (and/or counter hacks/assists), Drop uplink spam, revives, reps, ammo, vehical dmg* , vehical kill assist* *if im running AV or flux nades or RE - If Hacks, then that would be a lot harder with a hack nerf. - If he was a squad lead, you canGÇÖt use a squad leadGÇÖs WP in a WP balance discussion. Being Squad Lead greatly inflates your WP no mater which Class you are. - You make a good point about AV grenades. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3762	Posted - 2014.06.19 15:31:00 - [6] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Some discussion going on in the Skype channels about a simple concept of reducing the heavy frame's hacking speed modifier, providing an intuitive change that would encourage tactical decision making without being confrontational to what the Heavy is all about (point defense). Would like to get outside opinions, so feel free to comment. Does this apply to both Hack and Counter Hack? What is a Sentinel supposed to do if they are defending an objective solo and they donGÇÖt kill the guy in time to stop the hack? Side note here, while it absolutely does happen with any class I don't think we should be supporting 'solo play' compared to squad play. Dust is a team game and while being viable in a 1v1 situation shouldn't be removed by any means balance and refinement should support squad play more fully than solo play. Anyone who's defending a point solo, regardless of suit, is acting as a force multiplier. This should be a tactical asset with tradeoffs not a standard protocol that's supported by game balance. 0.02 ISK Cross It is standard Squad tactics to leave one person guarding outlaying objectives, while the rest of the squad operates in more hotly contested areas. - Can defend against minor threats. - Can assess and communicate threat leaves so that the rest of the Squad can react before the enemy start hacking. - Can tie up enemy troops in outlying areas, keeping them out of the main battle. If one guy can keep 3 to 5 enemy occupied in outlaying areas, it gives your team the advantage of numbers where the main fighting is happening. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3762	Posted - 2014.06.19 15:34:00 - [7] - Quote Thokk Nightshade referenced a suggestion that had come up in an early post I had made on this subject. I was planning to post it here anyway. I suggest the following: - Sentinel Hack speed changed to match counter-hack speed. - Sentinel Counter Hack speed unchanged (or possibly buffed slightly) - Sentinels given an additional 10 WP for kills (5 WP for Assists) within 30m of a friendly objective. This would reinforce the role of Sentinels as defenders, and reward them for playing that role. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3765	Posted - 2014.06.19 17:10:00 - [8] - Quote As long as I have played this game I have heard people saying that Sentinels are for Point Defence. If that is supposed to be our role, then we should have the tools to fulfill that role. When a Sentinel is defending a point it is common for an enemy to slip past the Sentinel when he is looking the other way, and hack the point when the Sentinel is around the corner. Because the Sentinel moves more slowly than other suits, it gives the enemy a bit more time to hack. I have so often seen the point I am guarding start to flash and come around the corner just as the hack finishes. If Sentinels are not able to Counter-Hack then another suit will have to be left to defend instead of the Sentinel. The Sentinel could stay as a bodyguard for the defender, but that leaves the rest of the squad down two men instead of just 1. So the Sentinels will mostly likely be wanted on the front line if they donGÇÖt have the tools to defend the point. I think forcing Sentinels into the Assault role is counter to the intent of this thread. I suggested considering a small buff to Counter-Hacking because we were discussing a major nerf to hacking speed with no corresponding benefit proposed. I felt that if Sentinels were supposed to be the defending class, then why not give them a small advantage when defending? But I am not tied to the idea of a slight buff to Counter-Hacking speed. It was just an idea I wanted to float for discussion. The 10 WP bonus for kills within 30m of a friendly objective is something I would like to see for Sentinels regardless of whether there is a Hacking nerf, as a WP balance for not having an Equipment slot. (The lack of an equipment slot was meant as a functional balance. The resulting loss of WP potential was an unintentional side effect.) Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3786	Posted - 2014.06.20 11:44:00 - [9] - Quote If you want to define the role of the Sentinel as not a Hacker you have to give them a major nerf to hacking speed or take the ability away. If you only give them a minor nerf to Hacking Speed, then they will still feel obligated to hack. All a minor nerf to Hacking Speed does is insures that Sentinels die more often while hacking. That is not role definition. That is just a nerf Heavies proposal. If you donGÇÖt want Sentinels to hack, then you have to give them a good excuse not to. You need to make other suits clearly and measurably better at hacking, so that the Sentinel does not feel obligated to sacrifice himself for the good of the team. This means either a major nerf or removing the ability to hack all together. I am 100% against a GÇ£minorGÇ¥ nerf to Sentinel Hacking Speed! A major nerf to hacking speed, or removing the ability to hack, on the other hand, would measurably increase my KDR, because a significant number of my deaths occur while hacking. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.