DUST Search - Ground Rules

Maken Tosch wrote:

Aighun wrote:

Project legion... what are the ground rules? Basic guiding concepts that will help shape game design?

I remember watching a presentation on Dust 514 where CCP laid out some simple ground rules for that game. No Jesus features. Dust and EVE would be connected but not dependent on each other. Unfortunately the EVE player delivered Orbital strike became something of a Jesus featureGÇª Anyway, ground rules and guiding principles are good things to have. I would like to propose two simple ground rules for sandbox gameplay that will help make project legion a much better game than Dust 514 as we knew it.

No lobbies.

No timers.

I agree about the first one. I don't agree about the second one. Let me elaborate.

First off, I'm not saying that the current PC mechanic regarding timers is perfect. Obviously it's not. It just needs work. Eve Online however has a very different set of mechanics regarding timers in an MMO setting. Timers in Eve are dependent on primarily two things only.

1. Did you remember to put online your control tower?
2. Did you put in enough Strontium inside the control tower?

Both tasks are simple to do. But there have been many cases in Eve where the owner of the tower somehow forgot to put in the Strontium which is a special fuel needed to reinforce the tower once it's shields have been breached. This is completely separate from the normal fuel needed for basic operations of the control towers. If there is no Strontium inside the tower, the tower will be destroyed once the shields, armor are breached. If there is any of it in the tower, the tower will go into reinforced mode once it has lost it's shields causing a temporary massive buff to damage resistance. But, if I remember correctly, this buff will only last for however long as the fuel lasts. Too little of it and the tower will be vulnerable again pretty soon before you have a chance to call in reinforcements. There is also a limit to how much of the fuel you can store in the tower.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Strontium_Clathrates

Once the reinforcement timer runs out, the attacking fleet will then have a chance to finally finish off destroying the tower assuming the defenders failed to repel those forces. If the defenders succeed in protecting the tower, they will then have to remotely repair the tower's armor before the reinforcement feature can be used again.

This can go well with Legion's Planetary Conquest I believe.

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Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 896	Posted - 2014.06.14 00:04:00 - [1] - Quote Project legion... what are the ground rules? Basic guiding concepts that will help shape game design? I remember watching a presentation on Dust 514 where CCP laid out some simple ground rules for that game. No Jesus features. Dust and EVE would be connected but not dependent on each other. Unfortunately the EVE player delivered Orbital strike became something of a Jesus featureGÇª Anyway, ground rules and guiding principles are good things to have. I would like to propose two simple ground rules for sandbox gameplay that will help make project legion a much better game than Dust 514 as we knew it. No lobbies. No timers.
low genius The Sound Of Freedom 1975	Posted - 2014.06.14 00:10:00 - [2] - Quote they gave us the same list of design philosophies for legion that they gave us for dust 514 in 2009. ccp is dying, and you need to be realistic about that. eve online will go on for years, but legion will never happen. if ccp was serious about switching platforms, or continuing on with the fps part of new eden, they would have green lit this project before player counts started dropping through the floor in dust. rip ccp. it was a good ride. www.forum.eternalcrusade.com rip ccp. it was a good run. www.forum.eternalcrusade.com
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8767	Posted - 2014.06.14 00:37:00 - [3] - Quote Aighun wrote: Project legion... what are the ground rules? Basic guiding concepts that will help shape game design? I remember watching a presentation on Dust 514 where CCP laid out some simple ground rules for that game. No Jesus features. Dust and EVE would be connected but not dependent on each other. Unfortunately the EVE player delivered Orbital strike became something of a Jesus featureGÇª Anyway, ground rules and guiding principles are good things to have. I would like to propose two simple ground rules for sandbox gameplay that will help make project legion a much better game than Dust 514 as we knew it. No lobbies. No timers. I agree about the first one. I don't agree about the second one. Let me elaborate. First off, I'm not saying that the current PC mechanic regarding timers is perfect. Obviously it's not. It just needs work. Eve Online however has a very different set of mechanics regarding timers in an MMO setting. Timers in Eve are dependent on primarily two things only. 1. Did you remember to put online your control tower? 2. Did you put in enough Strontium inside the control tower? Both tasks are simple to do. But there have been many cases in Eve where the owner of the tower somehow forgot to put in the Strontium which is a special fuel needed to reinforce the tower once it's shields have been breached. This is completely separate from the normal fuel needed for basic operations of the control towers. If there is no Strontium inside the tower, the tower will be destroyed once the shields, armor are breached. If there is any of it in the tower, the tower will go into reinforced mode once it has lost it's shields causing a temporary massive buff to damage resistance. But, if I remember correctly, this buff will only last for however long as the fuel lasts. Too little of it and the tower will be vulnerable again pretty soon before you have a chance to call in reinforcements. There is also a limit to how much of the fuel you can store in the tower. https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Strontium_Clathrates Once the reinforcement timer runs out, the attacking fleet will then have a chance to finally finish off destroying the tower assuming the defenders failed to repel those forces. If the defenders succeed in protecting the tower, they will then have to remotely repair the tower's armor before the reinforcement feature can be used again. This can go well with Legion's Planetary Conquest I believe. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2600	Posted - 2014.06.14 01:12:00 - [4] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Aighun wrote: Project legion... what are the ground rules? Basic guiding concepts that will help shape game design? I remember watching a presentation on Dust 514 where CCP laid out some simple ground rules for that game. No Jesus features. Dust and EVE would be connected but not dependent on each other. Unfortunately the EVE player delivered Orbital strike became something of a Jesus featureGÇª Anyway, ground rules and guiding principles are good things to have. I would like to propose two simple ground rules for sandbox gameplay that will help make project legion a much better game than Dust 514 as we knew it. No lobbies. No timers. I agree about the first one. I don't agree about the second one. Let me elaborate. First off, I'm not saying that the current PC mechanic regarding timers is perfect. Obviously it's not. It just needs work. Eve Online however has a very different set of mechanics regarding timers in an MMO setting. Timers in Eve are dependent on primarily two things only. 1. Did you remember to put online your control tower? 2. Did you put in enough Strontium inside the control tower? Both tasks are simple to do. But there have been many cases in Eve where the owner of the tower somehow forgot to put in the Strontium which is a special fuel needed to reinforce the tower once it's shields have been breached. This is completely separate from the normal fuel needed for basic operations of the control towers. If there is no Strontium inside the tower, the tower will be destroyed once the shields, armor are breached. If there is any of it in the tower, the tower will go into reinforced mode once it has lost it's shields causing a temporary massive buff to damage resistance. But, if I remember correctly, this buff will only last for however long as the fuel lasts. Too little of it and the tower will be vulnerable again pretty soon before you have a chance to call in reinforcements. There is also a limit to how much of the fuel you can store in the tower. https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Strontium_Clathrates Once the reinforcement timer runs out, the attacking fleet will then have a chance to finally finish off destroying the tower assuming the defenders failed to repel those forces. If the defenders succeed in protecting the tower, they will then have to remotely repair the tower's armor before the reinforcement feature can be used again. This can go well with Legion's Planetary Conquest I believe. I'd say that you could apply it to say like the control compound on the district, and you could either 1: Blow the power supply in it, destroying the compound or 2: hack a point and hold it for X minutes, swapping ownership of it. Something like that. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 897	Posted - 2014.06.14 15:23:00 - [5] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Aighun wrote: Project legion... what are the ground rules? Basic guiding concepts that will help shape game design? I remember watching a presentation on Dust 514 where CCP laid out some simple ground rules for that game. No Jesus features. Dust and EVE would be connected but not dependent on each other. Unfortunately the EVE player delivered Orbital strike became something of a Jesus featureGÇª Anyway, ground rules and guiding principles are good things to have. I would like to propose two simple ground rules for sandbox gameplay that will help make project legion a much better game than Dust 514 as we knew it. No lobbies. No timers. I agree about the first one. I don't agree about the second one. Let me elaborate. ... I agree that nice to have something that encourages players to gather in the same place at the same time to do battle. And disguised timers that cause a delay between when players first start an attack on a big important facility or asset and when they can destroy that asset is one way of making sure that everyone has a chance to get to the fight. But it would also be interesting to imagine what the game might look like if we stick to the proposed ground rules. It would even be good for EVE Online to imagine how that game might work without timers. Does sandbox (as opposed to competitive arena) legion really need to guarantee player vs. player battles that take place at scheduled times? One of the things I really liked about what I imagined Dust would be was the idea that players would deploy things like AI controlled gun emplacements. And PVE is going to be a major focus for the sandbox portion of Legion. It would be great to put a ton of different offensive and defensive deployables in the hands of players. Let those deployables affect how long it takes between the time you first receive notice that an enemy is encroaching on your territory to the moment that they are blowing up your space elevator. Deployables could be shield generators, shield generator bunkers, shield generator relays, mobile defense drones, stationary defense turrets, sensor arrays, siege drones, mobile clone depots, clone jump relays, clone jump signal boosters. You could either have your siege drones blapping the shields for 6 hours until they fail and hope the other guys are all asleep, or send a team of mercenaries to the planet's surface to scout out the location of a hidden shield generator relay bunker and hope you can find it, disable it, and get out before you attract too much attention. PVE and PVP become a much more seamless experience. Your PVE is whatever the other players have set up for you to encounter on the districts you are trying to attack. If they have good intel and decide to say hello and shoot you in the face a few times so much the better. If members from 2 or 3 different corporations all decide to show up at that same district when you are in the middle of your stealth infiltration mission, so much the better. But if the bots and the AI are decent, you really wouldn't ever need to have other players to fight in order to play the game. And they will have to be decent, no matter what, if CCP is going to do any sort of combat focused PVE at all. In a way, what I am imagining that legion could be is something like Mario Maker. FPS sci-fi Mario Maker with always on multiplayer. You can go anywhere, shoot anything, at any time, as long as you have the means to do so, and anyone else can join in, at any time, to help or to hinder, as long as they have the means to do so. At this point CCP have already burnt the game to the ground. They have the chance to start over and the sky is the limit.
Scheneighnay McBob The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 5277	Posted - 2014.06.14 20:01:00 - [6] - Quote Dust's #1 mistake was that is was a lobby shooter. As a dev said, this wasn't a good base for an MMO. Definitely something that needs to be avoided with Legion. péñpâ¦pé+pâìpââpâêpü«tÄïµºÿpüïpéÅpüäpüä pé¦pâ+pé¦pâ½pâäpâ¬pâ¦pé¦pâ¼pâ+pâêpü»sñ¬S+ïpéè
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3714	Posted - 2014.06.16 19:11:00 - [7] - Quote Without timbers of some sort you would wake up in the morning to discover that all your districts are gone. Or, maybe you would get third party app that would text you when your district is under attack, but it would likely happen during a business meeting or while you are having dinner with your in-laws, or something. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 902	Posted - 2014.06.17 00:26:00 - [8] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Without timbers of some sort you would wake up in the morning to discover that all your districts are gone. Or, maybe you would get third party app that would text you when your district is under attack, but it would likely happen during a business meeting or while you are having dinner with your in-laws, or something. This is good. in the current incarnation of planetary conquest you can claim a district by manipulating timers and lobby matches. That is really all there is to it. Manipulate the timer and lobby match system to your advantage and a district can be yours. So I think you hit on something that could be really important to legion. Ownership. What makes a district yours? Why does a district belong to you, more than any other player or group of players? If a district is yours, how does someone else make it theirs? What if you remove lobby matches and lock out timers from the equation? Say you own a house. If someone decides to set up a tent on your front lawn while you are sleeping, does that mean the trespasser suddenly owns your house? No. But maybe the house is not the best example. Look at it this way. We'll start back at the beginning. What makes a district yours? If a district is just an empty stretch of barren craters in a desert somewhere that you happened to land on to do a quick mineral survey before logging out, is that district now yours? Say you were the first to travel to that district. Do you own it? Shouldn't any other player also have the ability to go to that district and survey it for, say, rare proto biological matter? What if your mineral scans show that the district has some very rare and desirable stuff to mine on that district? So you have some ISK saved up and you decide to deploy a mining facility to the district before another player can deploy a biological research facility. Now it is starting to look like the district is yours. You built something there. Allright, but doesn't this all sound a lot more like what you would do in EVE, mining and so on? Well here we are kind of going beyond what I originally intended to write about. What is the point of a district in legion, after all? Why are we all assuming that there sill be districts in legion and that legion players will be able to own them, somehow? So let's just assume that there are districts in legion. Legion players can do stuff on the districts. They can do anything they want besides set up lobby matches that are scheduled by timers. Ok, where were we? You hate mining. Mining is a terrible waste of time and the worst possible thing any player could chose to do. Even if mining in legion is fully automated. You aren't going to deploy a mining facility, an adjacent refining facility, you aren't going to build a transportation network and a space elevator. None of that. What you are going to do is build a weapons manufacturing facility so you can build your own tanks and don't have to buy them on the open market. Maybe you will even sell some tanks. Are you trying to tell me that you are going to set up a venture that could potentially make you rich and harvest more drone scrap than anyone else in the gameGÇª and not, say, protect it in any way? Just hope no one notices your little set up? If you don't bother to protect your investment, why shouldn't some other players be able to take it away from you while you are asleep. Sure, using crest you could rely on a third party app tied to an in game item like "planetary defense early warning satellite system' to send you texts. That would be one solution. Or you could also invest in a good shield generator. Or a cloaking system that would hide your facility from scans. Or automated sentry drones. Or hire mercenary corporations run by players from different time zones to keep a look out for hostiles. Or EVE pilots to patrol the space around your planet on the look out for hostile ships, or anyone attempting to drop a string of clone jump relays from the nearest star gate to the district next door. When players aren't dependent on timers and lobby matches to protect their districts, an entire galaxy of possibilities opens up. Question is, what would you do to defend what is yours? Are you really going to put all that time and effort into owning a district only to let just anyone waltz in a camp out on the lawn? Or are you the type of player that would much rather take what you want, when you want, no matter who it belongs to? And if so, do you really want to have to make an appointment to blow up mining operations every time you've saved up enough ISK to buy a really sweet covert demolitions kit? Wouldn't it be a lot more satisfying to sneak onto another players district while they were sleeping, plant the charges, escape the sentry drones, and detonate the explosives from low orbit in a cloaked ship you've hired for the evening? You don't own a thing. All you really want to do is see it all burn.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8778	Posted - 2014.06.17 01:10:00 - [9] - Quote Quote: At this point CCP have already burnt the game to the ground. They have the chance to start over and the sky is the limit. You make a very valid point up until the last sentence. Don't tell me that the sky is the limit when we already have foot prints on the moon and robots on Mars. XD On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 902	Posted - 2014.06.17 01:18:00 - [10] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Quote: At this point CCP have already burnt the game to the ground. They have the chance to start over and the sky is the limit. You make a very valid point up until the last sentence. Don't tell me that the sky is the limit when we already have foot prints on the moon and robots on Mars. XD Are the stars in the sky... or are the stars in space? Either way, looks like you also need to have a talk with Sean Murray...

Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar Silver Bullet Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 670	Posted - 2014.06.17 22:23:00 - [11] - Quote i dont understand why dust cannot have a sanbox like discribed here, if only for beta test until its time to move up to the next console, its stulid to just dump dust and start over with a new game design when dust if almost where it needs to be. ccp needs to pull their head outa their asses and quit treating dust like its wod
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders 2622	Posted - 2014.06.17 22:58:00 - [12] - Quote Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote: i dont understand why dust cannot have a sanbox like discribed here, if only for beta test until its time to move up to the next console, its stulid to just dump dust and start over with a new game design when dust if almost where it needs to be. ccp needs to pull their head outa their asses and quit treating dust like its wod Because it's on the weak ass PS3. Deal with it. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar Silver Bullet Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 674	Posted - 2014.06.18 06:35:00 - [13] - Quote blame the ps3 all u want but its not the problem hiring the proper people to do the job is
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders 2627	Posted - 2014.06.18 17:38:00 - [14] - Quote Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote: blame the ps3 all u want but its not the problem hiring the proper people to do the job is I..... wow. There's no hope for you it seems lol click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8785	Posted - 2014.06.18 18:24:00 - [15] - Quote Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar wrote: blame the ps3 all u want but its not the problem hiring the proper people to do the job is I can tell there is no reasoning with you here. The PS3 is just outdated. Period. Even if CCP hired excellent developers, the QA approval process that Sony has proved to be too slow especially when CCP needs to deliver hot fixes that are needed client side ASAP whenever a new major update comes out. In Eve Online, the update process is instantaneous. If an expansion comes out but then we find a major bug in it that needs to be dealt with STAT, then CCP can just simply send out the hot fix immediately. This is made possible because there is no middle man between CCP and the Eve players like how there is Sony between CCP and the Dust players. With Sony in the way, those critical hot fixes will be delayed maybe a few days to a week but even then it could be too slow for something that is critical. Many game servers for the PS2 have already been shutdown since 2012. The PS3 will face this fate soon enough but it's possible Dust may stay on for much longer. But even then, the player base is just not going to be enough to test out the MMO aspect of the game. The PC is just more flexible than the console. Now I'm not one of those lame PC Master Race boneheads despite the fact that I have been a predominately PC-focused player. It's just that the PC has far better options for CCP than the console. 1. No need to rely on the likes of Sony or Microsoft to get access to players. You can get Eve on Steam for the PC but you can still get direct access with CCP if you don't want to go through Steam. 2. Better access to both the Tranquility Live Server and the Singularity Test Server without having to go through a third party like Sony. 3. PCs last longer than consoles. Although their upfront cost is pretty steep compared to that of a console, their ability to be upgraded bit by bit allows them to extend their lives. Of course, if you're good with computers you can buy the individual parts and put together a cheap. A quick Google search can give you listings on how to put together a good gaming rig on the cheap or a website where you can get cheap pre-made gaming rigs. Of course, the console does offer things that the PC doesn't. 1. Standardized hardware. 2. Cheapest price. 3. All-in-one system. But consoles have a short lifespan in terms of relevance in the market and they slowly become expensive to repair or replace depending on the severity of their condition. There is also the fact that you can't upgrade their components. You can obviously replace the PS3's HDD with a SSD and probably hack it but that will be the extent of the upgrade. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.


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