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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3683
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Posted - 2014.06.12 15:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
Delay - Swarm launcher changes - I am not happy with the community consensus and want to keep iterating for a solid compromise. We also found some bugs as well that can have unforeseen consequences when fixed. Lastly, increasing swarm size can affect performance.
CCP LogibroGÇÖs idea of increasing the number of swarms from 4/5/6 to 6/7/8 was a good way of reducing the gap between Standard Swarm Launcher damage and Proto Swarm Launcher damage, but it is easy to see how adding that many more swarms that the server has to track would create lag.
So, back to my suggestion for how to decrease the gap between Standard and Proto Swarm Launchers:
I am suggesting that rather than reducing the damage gap, we instead reduce the DPS gap, by allowing Standard Swarm Launchers to get the missiles in the air faster by modifying lock times. I propose to do this by making lock times proportional to the number of missiles. So if the lock time currently is 1.2 seconds (according to IGN Wiki) then the Lock time for Proto would be 1.2 seconds, Advanced would be 1 second, and Standard would be 0.8 seconds.
I seem to recall that after you shoot a Swarm Launcher there is a delay before you can lock again. I donGÇÖt know what the length of this delay is, so I will use 1 second in my calculations.
So:
Proto: 1320 damage per volley. 1.2 + 1 = 2.2 seconds per volley (first is 1.2)
Advanced: 1100 damage per volley. 1 + 1 = 2 seconds per volley (first is 1)
Standard: 880 damage per volley. 0.8 + 1 = 1.8 seconds per volley (first is 0.8)
If we use those figures and calculate damage output each second for 17 seconds (6 volleys for Proto) we get this:
1 Second
Proto: 0 Damage launched (0 Volleys, 0 missiles)
Advanced: 1100 Damage launched (1 Volley, 5 missiles)
Standard: 880 Damage launched (1 Volley, 4 missiles)
2 Seconds
Proto: 1320 Damage launched (1 Volley, 6 missiles)
Advanced: 1100 Damage launched (1 Volley, 5 missiles)
Standard: 880 Damage launched (1 Volley, 4 missiles)
3 Seconds
Proto: 1320 Damage launched (1 Volley, 6 missiles)
Advanced: 2200 Damage launched (2 Volleys, 10 missiles)
Standard: 1760 Damage launched (2 Volleys, 8 missiles)
4 Seconds
Proto: 2640 Damage launched (2 Volleys, 12 missiles)
Advanced: 2200 Damage launched (2 Volleys, 10 missiles)
Standard: 1760 Damage launched (2 Volleys, 8 missiles)
5 Seconds
Proto: 2640 Damage launched (2 Volleys, 12 missiles)
Advanced: 3300 Damage launched (3 Volleys, 15 missiles)
Standard: 2640 Damage launched (3 Volleys, 12 missiles)
6 Seconds
Proto: 3960 Damage launched (3 Volleys, 18 missiles)
Advanced: 3300 Damage launched (3 Volleys, 15 missiles) *Reloading
Standard: 2640 Damage launched (3 Volleys, 12 missiles) *Reloading
7 Seconds
Proto: 3960 Damage launched (3 Volleys, 18 missiles) *Reloading
Advanced: 3300 Damage launched (3 Volleys, 15 missiles) *Reloading
Standard: 2640 Damage launched (3 Volleys, 12 missiles) *Reloading
8 Seconds
Proto: 3960 Damage launched (3 Volleys, 18 missiles)
Advanced: 3300 Damage launched (3 Volleys, 15 missiles) *Reloading
Standard: 2640 Damage launched (3 Volleys, 12 missiles) *Reloading
9 Seconds
Proto: 3960 Damage launched (3 Volleys, 18 missiles) *Reloading
Advanced: 3300 Damage launched (3 Volleys, 15 missiles) *Reloading
Standard: 2640 Damage launched (3 Volleys, 12 missiles) *Reloading
10 Seconds
Proto: 3960 Damage launched (3 Volleys, 18 missiles) *Reloading
Advanced: 3300 Damage launched (3 Volleys, 15 missiles) *Reloading
Standard: 2640 Damage launched (3 Volleys, 12 missiles) *Reloading
11 Seconds
Proto: 3960 Damage launched (3 Volleys, 18 missiles) *Reloading
Advanced: 3300 Damage launched (3 Volleys, 15 missiles) *Reloading
Standard: 3520 Damage launched (4 Volley, 16 missiles)
12 Seconds
Proto: 5280 Damage launched (4 Volleys, 24 missiles)
Advanced: 4400 Damage launched (4 Volleys, 20 missiles)
Standard: 3520 Damage launched (4 Volley, 16 missiles)
13 Seconds
Proto: 5280 Damage launched (4 Volleys, 24 missiles)
Advanced: 4400 Damage launched (4 Volleys, 20 missiles)
Standard: 4400 Damage launched (5 Volleys, 20 missiles)
14 Seconds
Proto: 5280 Damage launched (4 Volleys, 24 missiles)
Advanced: 5500 Damage launched (5 Volleys, 25 missiles)
Standard: 4400 Damage launched (5 Volleys, 20 missiles)
15 Seconds
Proto: 6600 Damage launched (5 Volleys, 30 missiles)
Advanced: 5500 Damage launched (5 Volleys, 25 missiles)
Standard: 5280 Damage launched (6 Volleys, 24 missiles)
16 Seconds
Proto: 6600 Damage launched (5 Volleys, 30 missiles)
Advanced: 6600 Damage launched (6 Volleys, 30 missiles)
Standard: 5280 Damage launched (6 Volleys, 24 missiles) *Reloading
17 Seconds
Proto: 7920 Damage launched (6 Volleys, 36 missiles)
Advanced: 6600 Damage launched (6 Volleys, 30 missiles) *Reloading
Standard: 5280 Damage launched (6 Volleys, 24 missiles) *Reloading
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3683
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Posted - 2014.06.12 15:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Reserved
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Lorhak Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
3485
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Posted - 2014.06.12 16:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
Maybe make a graph :P that's really hard on the eyes.
CCP Rattati Best Dev
Sorry, Blowout...
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Lynn Beck
Heaven's Lost Property
1784
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Posted - 2014.06.12 16:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Making standard swarms BETTER than proto?
I donmt like that idea, although i do see where you're coming from.
I'd rather they all shoot 6 missiles but Adv/Pro get per missile damage buff/or lock time reduction.
General John Ripper
Like ALL the things!!!
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3685
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Posted - 2014.06.12 16:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lynn Beck wrote:Making standard swarms BETTER than proto?
I donmt like that idea, although i do see where you're coming from.
I'd rather they all shoot 6 missiles but Adv/Pro get per missile damage buff/or lock time reduction.
We could widen the dps gap a little by setting the lock times at:
Proto: 1.2 Seconds
Advanced 1.1 Seconds
Standard 1 Second
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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jace silencerww
D3ATH CARD
18
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Posted - 2014.06.13 05:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
lol that is a joke. tell me is any vehicle going to stay still for 17 seconds? LOL after the first 2 swarms hit or your 6 seconds most are gone out of lock range before the 3 swarm is fired. those that stay can take every swarm you fire and it does little damage to it. early I fired 7 swarms at an armor tank with my proto cal commando using proto swarm & 3 complex damage mods & 3 prof it ate all of them and it did about 1000 armor damage at most then it drove off after killing 5-7 blues. tell me how it had an armor hardner on it so it was not doing the 3 reps. it is uses against any vehicle but lavs I can not even drop an milita armor dropship with that fit because I only had 2 shots before he was out of my lock on range. 175 meters is a joke maybe 250 meters would work the old 350 was a huge range but 175 is way too short 225-250 would help but most dropships can out run the swarms |
Godin Thekiller
shadows of 514
2597
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Posted - 2014.06.13 05:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
jace silencerww wrote:lol that is a joke. tell me is any vehicle going to stay still for 17 seconds? LOL after the first 2 swarms hit or your 6 seconds most are gone out of lock range before the 3 swarm is fired. those that stay can take every swarm you fire and it does little damage to it. early I fired 7 swarms at an armor tank with my proto cal commando using proto swarm & 3 complex damage mods & 3 prof it ate all of them and it did about 1000 armor damage at most then it drove off after killing 5-7 blues. tell me how it had an armor hardner on it so it was not doing the 3 reps. it is uses against any vehicle but lavs I can not even drop an milita armor dropship with that fit because I only had 2 shots before he was out of my lock on range. 175 meters is a joke maybe 250 meters would work the old 350 was a huge range but 175 is way too short 225-250 would help but most dropships can out run the swarms
You expect a skilled and fitted HAV to die in 3 shots. Not taking you serious.
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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jace silencerww
D3ATH CARD
18
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Posted - 2014.06.13 08:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:jace silencerww wrote:lol that is a joke. tell me is any vehicle going to stay still for 17 seconds? LOL after the first 2 swarms hit or your 6 seconds most are gone out of lock range before the 3 swarm is fired. those that stay can take every swarm you fire and it does little damage to it. early I fired 7 swarms at an armor tank with my proto cal commando using proto swarm & 3 complex damage mods & 3 prof it ate all of them and it did about 1000 armor damage at most then it drove off after killing 5-7 blues. tell me how it had an armor hardner on it so it was not doing the 3 reps. it is uses against any vehicle but lavs I can not even drop an milita armor dropship with that fit because I only had 2 shots before he was out of my lock on range. 175 meters is a joke maybe 250 meters would work the old 350 was a huge range but 175 is way too short 225-250 would help but most dropships can out run the swarms You expect a skilled and fitted HAV to die in 3 shots. Not taking you serious.
not 3 shots on hav but 7 yes with that stats but the 3 shots on a miltia dropships yes |
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3693
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 10:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
jace silencerww wrote:lol that is a joke. tell me is any vehicle going to stay still for 17 seconds? LOL after the first 2 swarms hit or your 6 seconds most are gone out of lock range before the 3 swarm is fired. those that stay can take every swarm you fire and it does little damage to it. early I fired 7 swarms at an armor tank with my proto cal commando using proto swarm & 3 complex damage mods & 3 prof it ate all of them and it did about 1000 armor damage at most then it drove off after killing 5-7 blues. tell me how it had an armor hardner on it so it was not doing the 3 reps. it is uses against any vehicle but lavs I can not even drop an milita armor dropship with that fit because I only had 2 shots before he was out of my lock on range. 175 meters is a joke maybe 250 meters would work the old 350 was a huge range but 175 is way too short 225-250 would help but most dropships can out run the swarms
You have mistaken this for a balance thread.
This thread is a suggestion for how to narrow the gap between Standard and Proto Swarm Launchers. It dose not tackle the issue of whether the Proto Swarm Launcher is balanced. That is a separate question.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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jace silencerww
D3ATH CARD
18
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Posted - 2014.06.14 06:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
lol I was telling him that the time iw way off 17 seconds against any vehicle is way too long |
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3700
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Posted - 2014.06.14 11:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
jace silencerww wrote:lol I was telling him that the time iw way off 17 seconds against any vehicle is way too long
The damage over time states for the Proto Swarm Launcher are presented as they are currently, unless I have the numbers wrong. I went out to 16 seconds because that was the amount of time it seemed to take to empty two clips for the Proto Swarm Launcher. I present no opinion regarding how long it will take to kill anything in particular. I only present the numbers.
So what is your point? If your point is that the Swarm Launchers do not do enough damage, then you are posting in the wrong thread. This thread is about reducing the DPS gap between the various levels of Swarm Launcher by reducing lock times on lower level launchers.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
1810
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Posted - 2014.06.14 14:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
@ Fox Gaden
Given the upcoming proficiency fix, is it possible that we are discussing a moot point?
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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bogeyman m
Krusual Covert Operators
Minmatar Republic
266
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Posted - 2014.06.14 14:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:@ Fox Gaden
Given the upcoming proficiency fix, is it possible that we are discussing a moot point?
The proficiency fix will effect swarms vs vehicles. Fox's post is about swarms vs swarms.
Sorry Fox, but this is the only idea you have had that I can't get on board with. I agree with Lynn Beck that the SIMPLEST solution to swarm level balancing would be to just have them all shoot 6 missiles and adjust their damage per missile accordingly.
Additionally, I am still holding hope that we can look forward to distant determined lock times where closer vehicles get target-locked faster than farther vehicles. Besides being logical, it would reward the skill of a player who can get closer to their target (and penalize those who prefer to hide behind the redline, for example).
Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Cross Atu for CPM1
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1126
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Posted - 2014.06.14 14:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
Fox,
I appreciate the concept, however, i have to disagree a bit with the mechanics.
Basically, I think the tiering of damage isn't that bad. Increasing overall missiles in the volley is a pretty good way of doing things...at least to me.
That said, the number one thing I want from higher tier swarms is faster rate of fire and i can't really get around that.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Atiim
NoGameNoLife
9438
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Posted - 2014.06.14 15:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
My proposition:
Atiim wrote:Why not make them all have the same missile count, but reduced damage per missile? For instance:
- STD: 6 Missiles; 176HP per Missile | 1056HP per Volley
- ADV: 6 Missiles; 198HP per Missile | 1188HP per Volley
- PRO: 6 Missiles; 220HP per Missile | 1320HP per Volley
It's a rather simple fix, and makes lower tiered Swarm Launchers viable. Not to mention that the progression is by 10%, which should bring it in line with the progression of other weapons.
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical.
Proud defender of Ishukone Corporation.
-HAMD
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BL4CKST4R
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
2777
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Posted - 2014.06.14 15:45:00 -
[16] - Quote
Would much rather get rid of proto and advanced and balanced up from there. The tanks we fight against are of militia and standard variants so we should fight them with standard and militia AV.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
845
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Posted - 2014.06.14 16:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:jace silencerww wrote:lol that is a joke. tell me is any vehicle going to stay still for 17 seconds? LOL after the first 2 swarms hit or your 6 seconds most are gone out of lock range before the 3 swarm is fired. those that stay can take every swarm you fire and it does little damage to it. early I fired 7 swarms at an armor tank with my proto cal commando using proto swarm & 3 complex damage mods & 3 prof it ate all of them and it did about 1000 armor damage at most then it drove off after killing 5-7 blues. tell me how it had an armor hardner on it so it was not doing the 3 reps. it is uses against any vehicle but lavs I can not even drop an milita armor dropship with that fit because I only had 2 shots before he was out of my lock on range. 175 meters is a joke maybe 250 meters would work the old 350 was a huge range but 175 is way too short 225-250 would help but most dropships can out run the swarms You expect a skilled and fitted HAV to die in 3 shots. Not taking you serious.
7 shots=3shots?
Because, that's why.
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
845
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Posted - 2014.06.14 16:18:00 -
[18] - Quote
My vote goes with having the same number of missiles doing different damage by tier. It is much simpler and scalable, making tweaks easier.
Because, that's why.
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Lynn Beck
NoGameNoLife
1803
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Posted - 2014.06.14 16:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
The only problem with per missile damage, is that a single hardener would block Basic Swarms(?).
I, personally donmt find this a problem against higher level tanks, but against militia tanks, i find it vastly annoying.
General John Ripper
Like ALL the things!!!
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3702
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Posted - 2014.06.14 19:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
bogeyman m wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:@ Fox Gaden
Given the upcoming proficiency fix, is it possible that we are discussing a moot point? The proficiency fix will effect swarms vs vehicles. Fox's post is about swarms vs swarms. Sorry Fox, but this is the only idea you have had that I can't get on board with. I agree with Lynn Beck that the SIMPLEST solution to swarm level balancing would be to just have them all shoot 6 missiles and adjust their damage per missile accordingly. Additionally, I am still holding hope that we can look forward to distant determined lock times where closer vehicles get target-locked faster than farther vehicles. Besides being logical, it would reward the skill of a player who can get closer to their target (and penalize those who prefer to hide behind the redline, for example).
Occasionally I come up with ideas which are a bit overcomplicated. This was one that sounded simple when I first suggested it, but the closer we look at it, the more complicated it gets. That is why it is important to run ideas past the community to see how they hold up.
I like the uniqueness of each different levels of swarm launchers firing different numbers of missiles, but I am starting to think you guys are right that changing damage rather than quantity is probably the only viable approach. LogibroGÇÖs idea was really good, if they can do it without impacting performance, but I suspect that will be difficult.
I like your idea of having range effect lock time.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3704
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Posted - 2014.06.14 19:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Fox,
I appreciate the concept, however, i have to disagree a bit with the mechanics.
Basically, I think the tiering of damage isn't that bad. Increasing overall missiles in the volley is a pretty good way of doing things...at least to me.
That said, the number one thing I want from higher tier swarms is faster rate of fire and i can't really get around that.
What if all levels of Swarm Luncher did the same damage and fired 6 missiles, but the higher level Swarm Launchers locked and reloaded faster?
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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bogeyman m
Krusual Covert Operators
Minmatar Republic
268
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Posted - 2014.06.14 22:46:00 -
[22] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Fox,
I appreciate the concept, however, i have to disagree a bit with the mechanics.
Basically, I think the tiering of damage isn't that bad. Increasing overall missiles in the volley is a pretty good way of doing things...at least to me.
That said, the number one thing I want from higher tier swarms is faster rate of fire and i can't really get around that. What if all levels of Swarm Luncher did the same damage and fired 6 missiles, but the higher level Swarm Launchers locked and reloaded faster?
I think you still need some damage difference between the tiers.
Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Cross Atu for CPM1
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
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jace silencerww
D3ATH CARD
20
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Posted - 2014.06.15 00:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
ccp guys told us in a post that swarms are for lavs and dropships lol next time pull out a swarm and look at the efficiency rate (in the info you get when aiming) against militia dropships it is 55% both on shields and armor. it is 55% on ALL dropships I have pics as proof if needed in them I was using a caldari commando with proto swarms and 3 complex damage mods and still 55% against militia dropship. lol but on tanks & lavs it is the normal 80% on shield & 120% armor (not including proficiency or damage mods) so how is the time of swarms going to help? |
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3706
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 12:48:00 -
[24] - Quote
jace silencerww wrote:ccp guys told us in a post that swarms are for lavs and dropships lol next time pull out a swarm and look at the efficiency rate (in the info you get when aiming) against militia dropships it is 55% both on shields and armor. it is 55% on ALL dropships I have pics as proof if needed in them I was using a caldari commando with proto swarms and 3 complex damage mods and still 55% against militia dropship. lol but on tanks & lavs it is the normal 80% on shield & 120% armor (not including proficiency or damage mods) so how is the time of swarms going to help?
I have never seen any mention by CCP that Swarm Launchers are not intended for use against HAVGÇÖs. The 55% efficiency was put in place because Dropships have much less health than HAVGÇÖs and would be killed too quickly without it. It was applied along with all the other AV changes in 1.7, so like so many of them it was overdone. LogiBro has talked about adjusting that number. I am not sure if that adjustment will happen in Hotfix Brovo or wether they are only going to fix the bug that prevents Proficiency bonus from being applied.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2371
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Posted - 2014.06.16 05:35:00 -
[25] - Quote
I believe it's only the bug change, not 100% on that but I think everything else on the swarms is being pushed till C.
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Malkai Inos
Any Given Day
1365
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Posted - 2014.06.16 05:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:I believe it's only the bug change, not 100% on that but I think everything else on the swarms is being pushed till C. That is correct. Source
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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