DUST Search - Differentiating the Assault and Commando specializations

lithkul devant wrote:

Op in regards to the Amarr Commando, your idea would be taking the Amarr commando out back and breaking both of its knee caps. Laser weapons don't need faster reload times, especially not the regular scrambler rifle, the bonus is a complete waste as proposed both sides of it for the Amarr. For the Amarr it would actually be more benefical with your proposed to use other weapons that are not laser based. Second for the Amarr Assault, you just gave it a double bonus to damage that it didn't have before, laser rifles gain bonus damage over the period of time that they are active, then ontop of that you placed a 2% dmg bonus. In regards to the scrambler rifle it would lengthen how many shots could be shot and increase the dps and damage substantially. This would grossly destroy the balance between Amarr Commando and Amarr Assault.

Not only that but assault suits are getting a rework for hotfix beta, (no clue when it might be out) with the slot layout increasing the survivability of them. While your idea does have great merit, I believe the targeted bonuses need to be changed so not to provide great imbalance within the game least for the Amarr.


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Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8351	Posted - 2014.05.24 19:04:00 - [1] - Quote Premise "There is too much overlap between the Assault and Commando." This is something I hear very often, and it definitely has its share of truth. Over the course of my Dust career I've dabbled in every role, but by far my most used suits are the Assault and Commando. While I can tell apart the very subtle differences between the suits and what would be a better choice in a certain situation, it has gotten to the point where after the Uprising 1.8 respec I skilled into every class except the Assault because it was too similar to the Commando to warrant another couple million of my SP. What's even more worrisome is CCP notices this as well as evident by the Commando not even existing in the current build of Project Legion. However, for the purposes of this thread let's keep the discussion to what can be done to differentiate the Assault and Commando through hotfixes in Dust 514. If successful, maybe we can see the Commandos return in Legion My Proposal Let me stress that this is just my opinion on what would make the two roles distinct. Please take it for nothing more. Use it as a starting ground to bring your own proposals to the table, or don't and bring up new proposals completely unrelated to how I do it! The point is, let's all come up with ideas and provide constructive feedback to each other. So let me begin. Currently there isn't much differentiating the two. Both specializations bring hard hitting firepower to the table, while the Assaults get a little more mobility and a smaller hitbox whereas Commandos get two light weapons and more EHP. These are some great starting points, but not nearly enough to truly differentiate the two. I would believe the problem really starts to come into play when you examine the bonuses. The Assaults generally get bonuses that extend the fight, such as Amarr being able to fire laser weaponry longer, Minmatar being able to fire more projectile rounds before reloading, and Caldari being able to reload rails faster to continue shooting again sooner. The Commandos on the other time all have bonuses that shorten the fight, with flat DPS bonuses to down the enemy quicker. When you consider that the Assault is the one with less EHP that means it is less survivable in full out firefights which means it doesn't make sense that it would want to extend the fight. Really, the bonuses are backwards. Assaults should be trying to end a fight as soon as possible, whereas a Commando should be extending it (the Dust in-game client calls Commandos "the ultimate suppression fighters"). So let's start with this: Assault Class: 5% reduction to PG/CPU of light weapons and sidearms per level Amarr Assault: 2% increased damage to laser weaponry per level Caldari Assault: 2% increased damage to hybrid - rail weaponry per level Gallente Assault: 2% increased damage to hybrid - blaster weaponry per level Minmatar Assault: 2% increased damage to projectile and explosive weaponry per level Alright so now time for the Commando. This is a little trickier because it's not as simple as simply taking all the old assault, because for one they weren't that great to begin with, secondly the Caldari Assault's bonus overlaps with the Commando class bonus, and thirdly the Gallente Assault's bonus doesn't really fit with the theme of "the ultimate suppression fighter." So what would work? Well if we are going to go for making them suppression fighters then ammo capacity seems like a logical place to look at. And if it is going to be ammo capacity, then it will have to be something significant to make it feel worth it. So how about this: Commando Class: 5% increased reload speed of light weapons and sidearms per level Amarr Commando: 20% increased ammo capacity of laser weaponry per level Caldari Commando: 20% increased ammo capacity of hybrid - rail weaponry per level Gallente Commando: 20% increased ammo capacity of hybrid - blaster weaponry per level Minmatar Commando: 20% increased ammo capacity of projectile and explosive weaponry per level Do note that for both the Assault and Commando, all bonuses apply to both light weapons and sidearms. This is because one should not be penalized for wanting to use a sidearm in the light weapon slot, as it is a cascading system. And this actually paves the way for the Assault to have two light weapon slots as discussed for Project Legion and still be distinctive enough from the Commando. Conclusion The Assault and Commando now fill two very distinctive roles. The Assault class as the speed and mobility to charge in bases or flank the enemy and then deal with them quickly, whereas the Commando is less mobile but still able to keep up with the squad and has the EHP to provide constant suppression fire with up two twice the normal ammo capacity and a fast reload speed to boot! The Commando may not be doing much killing as it won't have the strongest weapons (the Assault will) but it will be able to constantly fire for a long duration, even if it knows it is not hitting anyone, and become that "ultimate suppression fighter." Amarr are the good guys.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8354	Posted - 2014.05.24 20:56:00 - [2] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: I like the concept. The described roles feel distinctive and fitting. However I think a clip size bonus would be more worthwhile to a commando than additional total ammo. In an ideal situation everyone in a match should be getting a 1.0 kdr, so having lots of ammo wouldn't be very desirable. How large do think a clipsize bonus should be to make it affect the playstyle of the Commando suits and make specialization worthwhile? 5% per level? That would put an AR at 80 shots per magazine. That's a whole lot of suppression. The concept that everyone should be getting a 1.0 KDR is a flaw in my opinion. Should a logi really be getting the same KDR as an Assault for example? It is a common flaw I see in a lot of FPS games because by their very title they are a SHOOTER which implies killing, but there are more roles in a shooter than just killing. I did consider giving the Commando a bonus to clip size instead, but that would turn it back into a slayer and then all of a sudden we have two slayer roles again (Assault and Commando) which defeats the point of trying to differentiate them. Having a large excess of ammunition would allow the Commando to provide constant streams of cover to teammates in the form of gun fire, aka suppression. This is not a foreign concept in the world of shooters, but it is one that is hard to make use of in Dust because of the low ammo capacity causing the players to make every shot count. Increasing the ammo capacity would alleviate that and shoot not to hit the target but to suppress them. With this, the five current roles in Dust become: Scout, the infiltrator Assault, the slayer Logi, the supporter Commando, the suppressor Sentinel, the defender Amarr are the good guys.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8355	Posted - 2014.05.24 21:45:00 - [3] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I actually really like the current Amarr and Minmatar bonuses, I like where this is going, but I don't want to lose those. I would prefer this: Assault bonus: 2% increase in all light weapon damage per level. Amarr: 5% reduction of heat buildup on laser weaponry per level (functionally equivalent to magazine increase) Minmatar: 5% increase magazine size of projectile weaponry per level. Gallente: 5% increase in hybrid-blaster weaponry magazine size per level. Caldari: 5% increase in hybrid-rail weaponry magazine size per level. Magazine increases and similar bonuses (like the Amarr heat reduction bonus) are the only current racial assault bonuses that are really worth it, so I would extend it to all assaults. Commandos have 2 light weapon slots to fit, so I believe the light/sidearm weapon weapon bonus would benefit the commando bonus. I would then add the reload bonus to the racial bonus, so a commando would have magazine reserves and reload speed as a racial bonus (like how the Minmatar scout has both hacking speed and nova knife damage). Thinking about it, I completely agree with you. Putting those skills as the class bonus would allow the suits to use any weapon and still get the primary benefit of the specialization, and then have the racial bonuses be the slighter bonuses for super specialized people. I'm going to update my OP with these suggestions. Amarr are the good guys.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8414	Posted - 2014.06.07 21:17:00 - [4] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Commando will not be removed, nor Assault given two weapons in DUST 514 Of course not, but from all we've heard of Legion that seems to be the case. Sure they say the Commando isn't ruled out for Legion, but the outlook sure seems grim. I suppose I am simply confused that if you think giving the Assault two light weapons in Dust 514 is a bad idea then why is it suddenly a good idea in Legion? Both could exist with multiple light weapons without any redundancy, that is all I'm saying. Amarr are the good guys.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8414	Posted - 2014.06.07 21:22:00 - [5] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Commando will not be removed, nor Assault given two weapons in DUST 514 Would you consider the bonus changes proposed? Both I (an assault and logi), and Aero (the king of commandos) agree on them, and as supreme rulers of stuff, we deserve to impose our will on the rest of the community. Seriously though, even if you don't give the assaults the damage bonus, the Caldari and Gallente bonuses should be changed to magazine size; the current ones just suck. Sure, they are valuable feedback Ammo capacity AND reload speed bonus ? WTF ? This is so useless. Actually Reload speed is actually useless on Amarr Commandos because Amarr weapons don't reload that much. Ammo capacity, same. Would buried this entire class. Have you ever used a laser rifle, bro? Reload a ton and run out of ammo fast. Same with assault scrambler. Not so much the normal scrambler, but hey that is 2 out of 3. Amarr are the good guys.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8414	Posted - 2014.06.07 21:25:00 - [6] - Quote lithkul devant wrote: Op in regards to the Amarr Commando, your idea would be taking the Amarr commando out back and breaking both of its knee caps. Laser weapons don't need faster reload times, especially not the regular scrambler rifle, the bonus is a complete waste as proposed both sides of it for the Amarr. For the Amarr it would actually be more benefical with your proposed to use other weapons that are not laser based. Second for the Amarr Assault, you just gave it a double bonus to damage that it didn't have before, laser rifles gain bonus damage over the period of time that they are active, then ontop of that you placed a 2% dmg bonus. In regards to the scrambler rifle it would lengthen how many shots could be shot and increase the dps and damage substantially. This would grossly destroy the balance between Amarr Commando and Amarr Assault. Not only that but assault suits are getting a rework for hotfix beta, (no clue when it might be out) with the slot layout increasing the survivability of them. While your idea does have great merit, I believe the targeted bonuses need to be changed so not to provide great imbalance within the game least for the Amarr. Again, it's only one out of the three Amarr light weapons that it would have minimal benefit too. I play the Amarr commando all the time, this would in no way break its knees. Also the whole gesture of "This would grossly destroy the balance between Amarr Commando and Amarr Assault." Really? I mean, really? I have a feeling your implying this based on killing capability. And if so, you missed the entire point of this thread. Not every role is supposed to be a straight up slayer. The commando would focus on suppression, not necessarily killing, while the assault is your bread and butter slayer. Amarr are the good guys.