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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5742	Posted - 2014.05.24 14:44:00 - [1] - Quote So, by my understanding the general concept was that variations were always supposed to be "emulators" of the other races' mainstay weaponry. That being said, I have to ask: Once and for all (so we can kill assumptions), are rifle variations -supposed- to be under-powered versions of the thing they're trying to emulate... or are they meant to have their own unique/racial flare and/or viability while emulating the original? The reason I bring this up is because there is evidence providing for both cases. Obviously, the Breach/Burst/Tac AR are -no where near- their competitors... But on the other hand, the Assault Combat Rifle (at least right now in 1.8) bests the AR in almost every way: My original thread (long-winded) Stat comparisons TTK comparisons I'm not really trying to say "Yo, CR is OP and PR is UP" that's already been addressed. I'm just asking how variations are supposed to operate so that we can all be on the same page as to how they're supposed to perform and make meaningful suggestions toward their balancing. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1692	Posted - 2014.05.24 15:23:00 - [2] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: So, by my understanding the general concept was that variations were always supposed to be "emulators" of the other races' mainstay weaponry. That being said, I have to ask: Once and for all (so we can kill assumptions), are rifle variations -supposed- to be under-powered versions of the thing they're trying to emulate... or are they meant to have their own unique/racial flare and/or viability while emulating the original? The reason I bring this up is because there is evidence providing for both cases. Obviously, the Breach/Burst/Tac AR are -no where near- their competitors... But on the other hand, the Assault Combat Rifle (at least right now in 1.8) bests the AR in almost every way: My original thread (long-winded) Stat comparisons TTK comparisons I'm not really trying to say "Yo, CR is OP and PR is UP" that's already been addressed. I'm just asking how variations are supposed to operate so that we can all be on the same page as to how they're supposed to perform and make meaningful suggestions toward their balancing. I personlly want the racial style weapon to be the best in class, (GAR, SCR, CR, RR) and the other variants to be not as good, pale imitations, so they are utility weapons if you like the "feel" or need to use one situationally. But that's my opinion and as I see it, we are allowed to mold it as we see fit. I have concerns about the 3 GA variants and think it's flavor at best, at the cost of quite some work to balance. We can cut them all, we can keep one GA variant so all have 2, or we can keep all three and make them viable alternatives to the racial styles they are copies of. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Ziiro Celeste Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 235	Posted - 2014.05.24 15:54:00 - [3] - Quote What I don't understand is why does the ScR have a RDS being the tactical rifle whereas the PR Tac AR variant gets an ACOG? Aisha Ctarl if you didn't know
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3225	Posted - 2014.05.24 16:09:00 - [4] - Quote Ziiro Celeste wrote: What I don't understand is why does the ScR have a RDS being the tactical rifle whereas the PR Tac AR variant gets an ACOG? The world may never know CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8350	Posted - 2014.05.24 18:13:00 - [5] - Quote CCP Rattati, remember to keep in mind one of the reasons rifle variants don't get as much use is because they cost a premium over the race's default variant. Especially when you look at prototype, where the variants all cost 77,280 ISK opposed to the defaults costing 47,220 ISK. The 30k ISK premium seems extremely unnecessary and definitely hurts any attempts at data comparison as far as trying to balance via sales data or consumption data. Amarr are the good guys.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5747	Posted - 2014.05.24 19:18:00 - [6] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: So, by my understanding the general concept was that variations were always supposed to be "emulators" of the other races' mainstay weaponry. That being said, I have to ask: Once and for all (so we can kill assumptions), are rifle variations -supposed- to be under-powered versions of the thing they're trying to emulate... or are they meant to have their own unique/racial flare and/or viability while emulating the original? The reason I bring this up is because there is evidence providing for both cases. Obviously, the Breach/Burst/Tac AR are -no where near- their competitors... But on the other hand, the Assault Combat Rifle (at least right now in 1.8) bests the AR in almost every way: My original thread (long-winded) Stat comparisons TTK comparisons I'm not really trying to say "Yo, CR is OP and PR is UP" that's already been addressed. I'm just asking how variations are supposed to operate so that we can all be on the same page as to how they're supposed to perform and make meaningful suggestions toward their balancing. I personlly want the racial style weapon to be the best in class, (GAR, SCR, CR, RR) and the other variants to be not as good, pale imitations, so they are utility weapons if you like the "feel" or need to use one situationally. But that's my opinion and as I see it, we are allowed to mold it as we see fit. I have concerns about the 3 GA variants and think it's flavor at best, at the cost of quite some work to balance. We can cut them all, we can keep one GA variant so all have 2, or we can keep all three and make them viable alternatives to the racial styles they are copies of. Honestly, I think Dust 514 has lost enough content over the years (vehicles especially) so removing content now would make the band-aid ripping that is Legion hurt even worse. My personal opinion is to keep the variants, make them viable alternatives within their limitations (lower range, more damage or something). As mentioned above, the additional cost does tie into the consideration when purchasing variations. Just as well, if there is -anything- you can do about the Scrambler Rifle zoom I think there's some potential unlocked usage if you increase it to the same level as that of the Tactical Plasma Rifle. It would also appeal more to the SCR's range. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 100	Posted - 2014.05.24 20:23:00 - [7] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I personlly want the racial style weapon to be the best in class, (GAR, SCR, CR, RR) and the other variants to be not as good, pale imitations, so they are utility weapons if you like the "feel" or need to use one situationally. But that's my opinion and as I see it, we are allowed to mold it as we see fit. I have concerns about the 3 GA variants and think it's flavor at best, at the cost of quite some work to balance. We can cut them all, we can keep one GA variant so all have 2, or we can keep all three and make them viable alternatives to the racial styles they are copies of. I take this to mean that while you are slightly buffing the Assault Rifle in Hotfix Alpha, you are not changing the Burst, Breach, or Tactical Assault Rifles? GûéGûäGûà /Gûî /Gûî /Gûî Gûî GûêGûêGûàGûâGûé IGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê] GùÑGèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGùñn++
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10931	Posted - 2014.05.24 21:05:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: So, by my understanding the general concept was that variations were always supposed to be "emulators" of the other races' mainstay weaponry. That being said, I have to ask: Once and for all (so we can kill assumptions), are rifle variations -supposed- to be under-powered versions of the thing they're trying to emulate... or are they meant to have their own unique/racial flare and/or viability while emulating the original? The reason I bring this up is because there is evidence providing for both cases. Obviously, the Breach/Burst/Tac AR are -no where near- their competitors... But on the other hand, the Assault Combat Rifle (at least right now in 1.8) bests the AR in almost every way: My original thread (long-winded) Stat comparisons TTK comparisons I'm not really trying to say "Yo, CR is OP and PR is UP" that's already been addressed. I'm just asking how variations are supposed to operate so that we can all be on the same page as to how they're supposed to perform and make meaningful suggestions toward their balancing. I personlly want the racial style weapon to be the best in class, (GAR, SCR, CR, RR) and the other variants to be not as good, pale imitations, so they are utility weapons if you like the "feel" or need to use one situationally. But that's my opinion and as I see it, we are allowed to mold it as we see fit. I have concerns about the 3 GA variants and think it's flavor at best, at the cost of quite some work to balance. We can cut them all, we can keep one GA variant so all have 2, or we can keep all three and make them viable alternatives to the racial styles they are copies of. I personally HATE the idea of having the racial original be simply superior than the mimic, I find that inherently an unbalanced way of doing things. Each race has their own strengths and weaknesses: damage profiles, ranges, DPS, and other elements that make them unique or better or worse at particular situations. I would rather use these racial traits to make the mimic variants just as good as the original racial rifles, but simply different because of a different set of strengths and weaknesses. Imagine if the breach AR (Gallente mick of the ral rifle) was just as good as the rail rifle, but simply different: Say for example I use a breach AR that is overall just as good as a rail rifle (like it has more DPS to make up for having less range). I might be fighting a corp that uses amor-based dropsuits along with short range weapons; instead of using my breach AR which has bonus damage to shields, a rail rifle would be more practical for the bonus damage to armor, and for being able to hit the enemies outside of their range at the cost of less DPS than the breach AR. While overall the weapons are just as viable, they each thrive in different situations, and fit different playstyles. One is a long range low DPS breach that does bonus damage to armor, while the other is a close range high DPS breach that does bonus damage to shields. This is what should be strived for in balance. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8354	Posted - 2014.05.24 21:24:00 - [9] - Quote I strongly agree with Kagehoshi's sentiments. The four races in the game already have a ton of strict design guidelines that make them unique from each other. While that is nice, there is no reason it needs to be carried any farther by making it law that Amarr are the best with semi auto weapons, Minmatar are best with burst weapons, Caldari are best with slow firing automatic weapons, and Gallente are best with fast firing automatic weapons. Quite frankly that just seems silly. Looking at the assault variant which is the only variant type all races currently have, there is no reason for the plasma rifle to be the absolute best. Given the 2% buff the the plasma rifle and 2% nerf to the combat rifle, all four assault variants should be very close to being just as effective at killing just with different range profiles and damage profiles. The Gallente plasma rifle won't stand out as the obvious best. The same should be done with the other three variants across all rifles. Amarr are the good guys.
CLONE117 True Pros Forever 803	Posted - 2014.05.24 21:26:00 - [10] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Ziiro Celeste wrote: What I don't understand is why does the ScR have a RDS being the tactical rifle whereas the PR Tac AR variant gets an ACOG? The world may never know maybe acogs dont come in armarrian colors?. dust 514 shall be eternal. pve for dust 514. dont worry my logis. i will protect u. unless its a scout. itd be too late

The-Errorist SVER True Blood 723	Posted - 2014.05.25 00:36:00 - [11] - Quote I agree with KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf and Aero Yassavi; making the variants just plain worse is a bad way to balance. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. Scanned scouts aren't dead scouts, they're +600HP scouts.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1735	Posted - 2014.05.25 00:49:00 - [12] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: CCP Rattati, remember to keep in mind one of the reasons rifle variants don't get as much use is because they cost a premium over the race's default variant. Especially when you look at prototype, where the variants all cost 77,280 ISK opposed to the defaults costing 47,220 ISK. The 30k ISK premium seems extremely unnecessary and definitely hurts any attempts at data comparison as far as trying to balance via sales data or consumption data. very good point "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Mauren NOON The Exemplars Top Men. 308	Posted - 2014.05.25 00:56:00 - [13] - Quote I certainly would use variants more often if they cost as much as the default. I never understood why they cost more in the first place. Scr and commando enthusiast. A commando is not just a suit, but a way of life... "The only thing to fear is fear itself"
Tectonic Fusion 1672	Posted - 2014.05.25 00:58:00 - [14] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: So, by my understanding the general concept was that variations were always supposed to be "emulators" of the other races' mainstay weaponry. That being said, I have to ask: Once and for all (so we can kill assumptions), are rifle variations -supposed- to be under-powered versions of the thing they're trying to emulate... or are they meant to have their own unique/racial flare and/or viability while emulating the original? The reason I bring this up is because there is evidence providing for both cases. Obviously, the Breach/Burst/Tac AR are -no where near- their competitors... But on the other hand, the Assault Combat Rifle (at least right now in 1.8) bests the AR in almost every way: My original thread (long-winded) Stat comparisons TTK comparisons I'm not really trying to say "Yo, CR is OP and PR is UP" that's already been addressed. I'm just asking how variations are supposed to operate so that we can all be on the same page as to how they're supposed to perform and make meaningful suggestions toward their balancing. I personlly want the racial style weapon to be the best in class, (GAR, SCR, CR, RR) and the other variants to be not as good, pale imitations, so they are utility weapons if you like the "feel" or need to use one situationally. But that's my opinion and as I see it, we are allowed to mold it as we see fit. I have concerns about the 3 GA variants and think it's flavor at best, at the cost of quite some work to balance. We can cut them all, we can keep one GA variant so all have 2, or we can keep all three and make them viable alternatives to the racial styles they are copies of. I think it would be better if they weren't worse, but particularly worse, maybe just slightly, but have the variants be more like their race's playstyle so they are different, but operate as an assault/breach/burst weapon.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1738	Posted - 2014.05.25 00:59:00 - [15] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: So, by my understanding the general concept was that variations were always supposed to be "emulators" of the other races' mainstay weaponry. That being said, I have to ask: Once and for all (so we can kill assumptions), are rifle variations -supposed- to be under-powered versions of the thing they're trying to emulate... or are they meant to have their own unique/racial flare and/or viability while emulating the original? The reason I bring this up is because there is evidence providing for both cases. Obviously, the Breach/Burst/Tac AR are -no where near- their competitors... But on the other hand, the Assault Combat Rifle (at least right now in 1.8) bests the AR in almost every way: My original thread (long-winded) Stat comparisons TTK comparisons I'm not really trying to say "Yo, CR is OP and PR is UP" that's already been addressed. I'm just asking how variations are supposed to operate so that we can all be on the same page as to how they're supposed to perform and make meaningful suggestions toward their balancing. I personlly want the racial style weapon to be the best in class, (GAR, SCR, CR, RR) and the other variants to be not as good, pale imitations, so they are utility weapons if you like the "feel" or need to use one situationally. But that's my opinion and as I see it, we are allowed to mold it as we see fit. I have concerns about the 3 GA variants and think it's flavor at best, at the cost of quite some work to balance. We can cut them all, we can keep one GA variant so all have 2, or we can keep all three and make them viable alternatives to the racial styles they are copies of. I personally HATE the idea of having the racial original be simply superior than the mimic, I find that inherently an unbalanced way of doing things. Each race has their own strengths and weaknesses: damage profiles, ranges, DPS, and other elements that make them unique or better or worse at particular situations. I would rather use these racial traits to make the mimic variants just as good as the original racial rifles, but simply different because of a different set of strengths and weaknesses. Imagine if the breach AR (Gallente mick of the rail rifle) was just as good as the rail rifle, but simply different: Say for example I use a breach AR that is overall just as good as a rail rifle (like it has more DPS to make up for having less range). I might be fighting a corp that uses armor-based dropsuits along with short range weapons; instead of using my breach AR which has bonus damage to shields, a rail rifle would be more practical for the bonus damage to armor, and for being able to hit the enemies outside of their range at the cost of less DPS than the breach AR. While overall the weapons are just as viable, they each thrive in different situations, and fit different playstyles. One is a long range low DPS breach that does bonus damage to armor, while the other is a close range high DPS breach that does bonus damage to shields. This is what should be strived for in balance. Consider this then. I have personally spent millions of skillpoints upgrading my GAR completely, fititng optimiziations and proficiency. That path is designed to be good for Gallente fully automatic weapons. Now, I can also choose to go pick up the proto full auto CR, but as that tree is meant to make a burst rifle better, it doesnt necessarily make the full auto "better", could be less time between bursts or something along those lines. My GAR should be better in my hands than a ACR in my hands, and certainly better than a ACR that someone who prefers burst rifles but picked up the ACR on the way. Specialization should always be rewarded, that is the crux of why our choices matter, SP and progression. All that said, I just threw that out because I didn't think anyone cared about the variants and was curious to see the reaction. If we balance them, we would certainly try to match the variants with their siblings, RR and GA breach, etc, in relative power but the ranges might be different. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Mauren NOON The Exemplars Top Men. 308	Posted - 2014.05.25 01:06:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: So, by my understanding the general concept was that variations were always supposed to be "emulators" of the other races' mainstay weaponry. That being said, I have to ask: Once and for all (so we can kill assumptions), are rifle variations -supposed- to be under-powered versions of the thing they're trying to emulate... or are they meant to have their own unique/racial flare and/or viability while emulating the original? The reason I bring this up is because there is evidence providing for both cases. Obviously, the Breach/Burst/Tac AR are -no where near- their competitors... But on the other hand, the Assault Combat Rifle (at least right now in 1.8) bests the AR in almost every way: My original thread (long-winded) Stat comparisons TTK comparisons I'm not really trying to say "Yo, CR is OP and PR is UP" that's already been addressed. I'm just asking how variations are supposed to operate so that we can all be on the same page as to how they're supposed to perform and make meaningful suggestions toward their balancing. I personlly want the racial style weapon to be the best in class, (GAR, SCR, CR, RR) and the other variants to be not as good, pale imitations, so they are utility weapons if you like the "feel" or need to use one situationally. But that's my opinion and as I see it, we are allowed to mold it as we see fit. I have concerns about the 3 GA variants and think it's flavor at best, at the cost of quite some work to balance. We can cut them all, we can keep one GA variant so all have 2, or we can keep all three and make them viable alternatives to the racial styles they are copies of. I personally HATE the idea of having the racial original be simply superior than the mimic, I find that inherently an unbalanced way of doing things. Each race has their own strengths and weaknesses: damage profiles, ranges, DPS, and other elements that make them unique or better or worse at particular situations. I would rather use these racial traits to make the mimic variants just as good as the original racial rifles, but simply different because of a different set of strengths and weaknesses. Imagine if the breach AR (Gallente mick of the rail rifle) was just as good as the rail rifle, but simply different: Say for example I use a breach AR that is overall just as good as a rail rifle (like it has more DPS to make up for having less range). I might be fighting a corp that uses armor-based dropsuits along with short range weapons; instead of using my breach AR which has bonus damage to shields, a rail rifle would be more practical for the bonus damage to armor, and for being able to hit the enemies outside of their range at the cost of less DPS than the breach AR. While overall the weapons are just as viable, they each thrive in different situations, and fit different playstyles. One is a long range low DPS breach that does bonus damage to armor, while the other is a close range high DPS breach that does bonus damage to shields. This is what should be strived for in balance. Consider this then. I have personally spent millions of skillpoints upgrading my GAR completely, fititng optimiziations and proficiency. That path is designed to be good for Gallente fully automatic weapons. Now, I can also choose to go pick up the proto full auto CR, but as that tree is meant to make a burst rifle better, it doesnt necessarily make the full auto "better", could be less time between bursts or something along those lines. My GAR should be better in my hands than a ACR in my hands, and certainly better than a ACR that someone who prefers burst rifles but picked up the ACR on the way. Specialization should always be rewarded, that is the crux of why our choices matter, SP and progression. You need to be lead developer. Like now. All that said, I just threw that out because I didn't think anyone cared about the variants and was curious to see the reaction. If we balance them, we would certainly try to match the variants with their siblings, RR and GA breach, etc, in relative power but the ranges might be different. Scr and commando enthusiast. A commando is not just a suit, but a way of life... "The only thing to fear is fear itself"
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2376	Posted - 2014.05.25 02:45:00 - [17] - Quote Other balancing options would include: 1) letting the mimics be 95% as powerful as the racial versions, but not get the suit bonuses to the primary racial version. 2) let them have parity with racial versions but cost 10-20% more fitting than those versions. 3) let them be 10-25% worse than racial versions, but also 25%-40% cheaper (rip-offs). 4) making them have much worse racial drawbacks for alternate versions (much longer reloads for RR, seize for AR, higher overheat damage for SR, shorter clip for combat rifle)
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10938	Posted - 2014.05.25 03:31:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: So, by my understanding the general concept was that variations were always supposed to be "emulators" of the other races' mainstay weaponry. That being said, I have to ask: Once and for all (so we can kill assumptions), are rifle variations -supposed- to be under-powered versions of the thing they're trying to emulate... or are they meant to have their own unique/racial flare and/or viability while emulating the original? The reason I bring this up is because there is evidence providing for both cases. Obviously, the Breach/Burst/Tac AR are -no where near- their competitors... But on the other hand, the Assault Combat Rifle (at least right now in 1.8) bests the AR in almost every way: My original thread (long-winded) Stat comparisons TTK comparisons I'm not really trying to say "Yo, CR is OP and PR is UP" that's already been addressed. I'm just asking how variations are supposed to operate so that we can all be on the same page as to how they're supposed to perform and make meaningful suggestions toward their balancing. I personlly want the racial style weapon to be the best in class, (GAR, SCR, CR, RR) and the other variants to be not as good, pale imitations, so they are utility weapons if you like the "feel" or need to use one situationally. But that's my opinion and as I see it, we are allowed to mold it as we see fit. I have concerns about the 3 GA variants and think it's flavor at best, at the cost of quite some work to balance. We can cut them all, we can keep one GA variant so all have 2, or we can keep all three and make them viable alternatives to the racial styles they are copies of. I personally HATE the idea of having the racial original be simply superior than the mimic, I find that inherently an unbalanced way of doing things. Each race has their own strengths and weaknesses: damage profiles, ranges, DPS, and other elements that make them unique or better or worse at particular situations. I would rather use these racial traits to make the mimic variants just as good as the original racial rifles, but simply different because of a different set of strengths and weaknesses. Imagine if the breach AR (Gallente mick of the rail rifle) was just as good as the rail rifle, but simply different: Say for example I use a breach AR that is overall just as good as a rail rifle (like it has more DPS to make up for having less range). I might be fighting a corp that uses armor-based dropsuits along with short range weapons; instead of using my breach AR which has bonus damage to shields, a rail rifle would be more practical for the bonus damage to armor, and for being able to hit the enemies outside of their range at the cost of less DPS than the breach AR. While overall the weapons are just as viable, they each thrive in different situations, and fit different playstyles. One is a long range low DPS breach that does bonus damage to armor, while the other is a close range high DPS breach that does bonus damage to shields. This is what should be strived for in balance. Consider this then. I have personally spent millions of skillpoints upgrading my GAR completely, fititng optimiziations and proficiency. That path is designed to be good for Gallente fully automatic weapons. Now, I can also choose to go pick up the proto full auto CR, but as that tree is meant to make a burst rifle better, it doesnt necessarily make the full auto "better", could be less time between bursts or something along those lines. My GAR should be better in my hands than a ACR in my hands, and certainly better than a ACR that someone who prefers burst rifles but picked up the ACR on the way. Specialization should always be rewarded, that is the crux of why our choices matter, SP and progression. All that said, I just threw that out because I didn't think anyone cared about the variants and was curious to see the reaction. If we balance them, we would certainly try to match the variants with their siblings, RR and GA breach, etc, in relative power but the ranges might be different. My example was just about the rifles' base stats themselves, not including the effects of the skills. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Lilith Serenity Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 8	Posted - 2014.05.25 04:12:00 - [19] - Quote What if we removed the current variants based on fire modes like full auto, burst, and single shot to variants based on attachments instead like one with just iron sights then a variant with a mid range scope etc.
Balamob SVER True Blood Dirt Nap Squad. 32	Posted - 2014.05.25 06:02:00 - [20] - Quote They should mix breach and tactical AR, has sense, it keeps it auto fire (no abuse from moded controllers) and it would have the bullet count/range to be competitive. Being a Templar is a vow for life.

Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1265	Posted - 2014.05.25 08:10:00 - [21] - Quote The mimics should follow the designs of the other races, but keep the same racial idea of the parent race. For example, all Gallente rifles should follow the racial idea of the Gallente (high DPS, low range) while mimicking the function of the other races. So the breach AR will have the longest range out of the 4 AR rifles, but will have the shortest range of the other races' breach variants. The Caldari assault rifle will have the shortest range out of all the Caldari rifle variants, but the longest range out of all the other races variants. Balance wise, you would balance a variant with all the other races equivalent, with Gallente at one end (high DPS, low range) and Caldari at the other with low DPS and high range. So all assaults would be balanced around each other, with Gallente being the shortest range-highest damage, and Caldari with the lowest damage, highest range, and the other two races falling in the middle. The other variants (breach, tactical, burst) would be balanced similarly. At the end of the day, all Gallente weapons would have the highest damage in their class with the lowest range. Caldari would have the highest range and lowest DPS in their class. That's what you get!! - DA Rick
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 468	Posted - 2014.05.25 08:31:00 - [22] - Quote Personally, I feel that variants make sense for two reasons: - You can get a variant out when your main weapon isn't sufficient - e.g. a longer-ranged variant for when you are constantly engaging enemies at range, like is common on certain maps - You keep your assault bonuses, which differ depending on faction. On that note, I feel that the current assault bonuses are kinda wonky I'm Gallente, but I love the Breach AR and would be sad to see it go. I don't have the skillpoints to skill into anything but AR and I prefer to run my racial loadout, anyway. That's why variants are very important to me.
Kierkegaard Soren Forsaken Immortals Top Men. 469	Posted - 2014.05.25 11:14:00 - [23] - Quote I agree with Kageoshi; the difference in effectiveness between variants should lie in the inherent strengths and weaknesses of the racial profile. Mimics will always feel like exactly that, and ultimately we should want every gun to feel awesome and perform well when handled correctly. Also, make the variants cheaper. 17k for a AsScr is like a kick in the balls every time I lose my fit ;) Dedicated Commando. "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." -Paul Atreides.
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 765	Posted - 2014.05.25 11:48:00 - [24] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: The mimics should follow the designs of the other races, but keep the same racial idea of the parent race. For example, all Gallente rifles should follow the racial idea of the Gallente (high DPS, low range) while mimicking the function of the other races. So the breach AR will have the longest range out of the 4 AR rifles, but will have the shortest range of the other races' breach variants. The Caldari assault rifle will have the shortest range out of all the Caldari rifle variants, but the longest range out of all the other races variants. Balance wise, you would balance a variant with all the other races equivalent, with Gallente at one end (high DPS, low range) and Caldari at the other with low DPS and high range. So all assaults would be balanced around each other, with Gallente being the shortest range-highest damage, and Caldari with the lowest damage, highest range, and the other two races falling in the middle. The other variants (breach, tactical, burst) would be balanced similarly. At the end of the day, all Gallente weapons would have the highest damage in their class with the lowest range. Caldari would have the highest range and lowest DPS in their class. I like this idea a lot and to be honest I always assumed this is what CCP had in mind when it came to variants. Not necessarily better or worse than their counterparts - just engineered to be more fitting to their own racial tendencies.
Raedon Vo-Graza Armored Dragon Corp 33	Posted - 2014.05.25 15:08:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: CCP Rattati, remember to keep in mind one of the reasons rifle variants don't get as much use is because they cost a premium over the race's default variant. Especially when you look at prototype, where the variants all cost 77,280 ISK opposed to the defaults costing 47,220 ISK. The 30k ISK premium seems extremely unnecessary and definitely hurts any attempts at data comparison as far as trying to balance via sales data or consumption data. very good point make the odd variants the pirate weapons, and add extra skill requirements to use, this way many stats can stay similar and then just normalize the prices
Azri Sarum BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 332	Posted - 2014.05.25 20:27:00 - [26] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: All that said, I just threw that out because I didn't think anyone cared about the variants and was curious to see the reaction. Well then let me say this clearly, "People do care about the variants". I almost exclusively use variants. The ACR has been my primary weapon since day one of its release. It just clicked with me. The feel, the range, the accuracy, all what I look for in a gun. That said, I (and probably anyone else who uses a variant) don't really appreciate feeling like a second class citizen as a variant user. We already have to deal with a stupidly high price point for the weapons, we really do not need any of the heavy handed nerfs proposed in this thread. What we need is to let each race have two rifles, each with a different feel, and let them both be good. This is something EVE has done well, we could learn from its example. Races have long range and short range weapons (for each size category), while still preserving the relationship between racial preferences of range vs raw dps. What we need to do in DUST is to commit on letting each race have two rifles (one its signature flavor, and one something else) balancing both to be useful, but on equal footing. I can see no reason why the weird system we have now is kept. Variants should be awesome weapons, and not "pale imitations". EVE - Victor Maximus DUST - Azri Sarum
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1058	Posted - 2014.05.25 22:53:00 - [27] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: CCP Rattati, remember to keep in mind one of the reasons rifle variants don't get as much use is because they cost a premium over the race's default variant. Especially when you look at prototype, where the variants all cost 77,280 ISK opposed to the defaults costing 47,220 ISK. The 30k ISK premium seems extremely unnecessary and definitely hurts any attempts at data comparison as far as trying to balance via sales data or consumption data. very good point I disagree, for great portion of the veteran playerbase (doing the bulk of kills btw) the suit price having no effect on their decisions. Only thing that matters is to have the best possible combo. :-S


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