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Spartan MK420
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Posted - 2014.05.23 13:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Dear players, we are back with most of the numbers that can be discussed. A few things are under technical evaluation but these are the stats we are proposing for Hotfix Alpha. Here are the numbers Hotfix Alpha NumbersDue to popular demand and community reasoning, we are making a few strategic changes. 1) We are not reducing Minmatar Commando speed at this time, it stays the same. XXX 2) We are probably going to move the Gallente Scout repair rate over to the Amarr Scout. The "probably" is now "not"3) We are going to change cloak dampening to be slightly above zero for Advanced and Prototype, albeit at lower rates So, please review the list and give us feedback in this thread. These concerns deserve special mention, as they were mentioned a lot.
- Scouts and EWAR - the intention was never to "fix" the EWAR meta with Hotfix Alpha. Just to force players to make a choice between being completely unscannable or scannable and invisible.
- Swarms as AV - We don't want to change too many things at the same time. Improving swarms to counter tanks, will affect dropships as well.
- Changing swarms from Explosive to Hybrid is not a direction we want to take, even if it would give Calmandos an AV edge. We are more looking at granting some sort of AV bonuses to all Commandos.
Again, thanks for the constructive and positive feedback, CCP Rattati
Much better. I like you, you listen to our pain. XD
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Spartan MK420
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Posted - 2014.05.23 14:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:On Rifle Changes
Look's good. Small adjustments are the way to go. Can always finetune later if and as needed.
On Cloak Changes (Dampening Bonus)
On Scout Changes
I proposed and support GalScout's passive armor rep being transferred to Amarr Scout. The Scout Community expected Amarr to be the go-to brick-tank option; armor would be its niche. No one expected Gallente to receive passive armor rep; that came as unneeded surprise. King GalScout does not need this perk to compete, and this perk would directly support the niche we had prescribed to the under-performing Amarr Scout. Don't give two squirts about lore; only concerned with balance and feasibility.
While the amar does need a better role for itself. Taking the self rep from the gal scout is not the way to go, considering that all the racial gallante suits get the self repping hp bonus for their armor.
This is how it should be, considering that's their life line hp. After all, would you give the shield recharge rate of 50p/s to the amar, and take it away from the caldari?
The amar would be much better suited with taking away the movement penalty of armor plates, than this fore mentioned route. Maybe not taking away the full movement penalty, but at least half of it. (so we don't have people stacking complex plates on it)
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Spartan MK420
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Posted - 2014.05.23 14:05:00 -
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Michael Arck wrote:The cloak field duration is okay where it is right now. Maybe the delay in switching to weapon and decloaking should be looked at but even that isn't a major problem.
I agree, the major problem, is that people do not pay attention to their surroundings. You can see a cloaked scout from a quarter mile away if you're in the open. But if you go into a "maze', yea the scout should be able to skull **** you before you know whats going on. CQC masters ftw.
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Spartan MK420
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Posted - 2014.05.23 14:07:00 -
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Firbolg Barun wrote:Armor reppers did indeed get a nice buff.
Proto repper: 7.5 hp/s
With skills applied this will be 7.5 * 1.25 = 9.375 hp/s (Correct me if I am wrong?)
Duvolle Assault Rifle dmg on a commando with 1 enh dmg mod (before patch): 37,752 dmg/shot, 471,9 dmg/s.
Duvolle Assault Rifle dmg on a commando with 1 enh dmg mod (after patch): 38,50704 dmg/shot, 481,338 dmg/s.
Basically, my proto gallente commando will have 19.75 hp/s, sprint at 6.64 m/s and also get a dmg buff on AR? Nice!
Also, repping gallente sentinels will VERY viable with these changes, armor repair with 4 reppers:
4*9.375 + 1 = 38.5 hp/s
Effective rep vs rail: 38.5 / 0.85 = 45.3 hp/s
Effective rep vs projectiles: 38.5 / 0.9 = 42.78 hp/s
Gallente assaults with 2 complex shield extenders, 3 complex reppers and a complex ferroscale plate will be very scary. ~~600 hp, 30 hp/s (that reps through combat, without any speed penalty whatsoever).
It may be a problem vs medium infantry (which it should), but another heavy will walk right through it.
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Spartan MK420
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Posted - 2014.05.23 14:14:00 -
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Ku Shala wrote:Spartan MK420 wrote:Michael Arck wrote:The cloak field duration is okay where it is right now. Maybe the delay in switching to weapon and decloaking should be looked at but even that isn't a major problem. I agree, the major problem, is that people do not pay attention to their surroundings. You can see a cloaked scout from a quarter mile away if you're in the open. But if you go into a "maze', yea the scout should be able to skull **** you before you know whats going on. CQC masters ftw. the only problems with scouts is the bunny hoping and poor hit detection...... you should not be able to jump around in front of a heavy spraying an HMG and live
I never do.
I catch them by surprise, shoot them once in the back, and twice while they're turning around. Sometimes even a third time. Stealth is the advantage there.
Scouts, whom are seen by a heavy before they sneak up on them , stand a cold chance in hell at surviving.
It all breaks down to awareness. If a heavy isn't checking his surroundings, he's a poor pd unit anyways.
Back to the armor rep modules, and the ar buff, I'm hoping this change makes my gall assault usable again. I know it will help my min logi. =]
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Spartan MK420
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Posted - 2014.05.23 14:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
though i do feel that the cloak duration is a bit low at proto. I believe 60 at the proto level would be more reasonable. Especially considering there is no skill that improves the cool down duration. (would be more understandable if it was a scouts racial bonus that countered this, making it a more useful minja *cough*.
My ewar scout has 395 hp (all max core skills), and will be cut by a 1/3rd once complete. The odds of survival are lowered dramatically by this duration nerf. Seems now that I would need to tank even more health, in order to compensate for this.
Lowering or removing the cloak dampening, should have been enough of a nerf at once. (in regards to scouts) Changing too many variables at once, without checking the results, could lead to a bigger nerf than was needed. Poor matari scouts.
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Spartan MK420
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Posted - 2014.05.23 14:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Meh, not wasting anymore of my time here.
This game is just becoming worse, and worse, with no light at the end of the tunnel for any role.
You balance 1 mechanic, by breaking 3. Not very productive. But good job security I suppose.
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Spartan MK420
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Posted - 2014.05.23 16:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
I know I know....but CCP , I have 1 further question. When are you going to fix the logistic bonus applying to a cloak device?
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Spartan MK420
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Posted - 2014.05.23 16:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
What people are failing to understand, is that if a scout is hp tanking, they trade off their stealth/role to have a bright ass arrow over their head, which leads to an inevitable death. (this is a sandbox game, no?)
It's not the gall/cal scouts that are the problem, it's more or less, the assault class being useless, modules needing changed, and the amar/min scout needing to be brought up to par.
Honestly if the assault class was good at slaying.....instead of being cannon fodder. We probably wouldn't be having half of this problem.
Maybe if you drop the scan precision of assaults somehow, (math wise, 2 -3 complex precisions would push their precision to a margin just below a scout with only 1-2 dampeners?) so they can pick up non-dampened scouts to an extent :p Afterall, someone needs to vanguard the logi/heavy combo's flank.
I dunno, I'm just rambling and trying to brainstorm something other than the ridiculous changes we're presented with.
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Spartan MK420
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Posted - 2014.05.23 17:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
instead of dispersion bonus' and such, maybe a rof increase would be more tempting to slayers...
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Spartan MK420
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Posted - 2014.05.23 17:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:
... it's pointless being cloaked if there's a chevron over your head
^ This makes perfect sense. CCP Rattati wrote:... make a choice between being completely unscannable or scannable and invisible.
^ This does not.
Cloak and Dampening go hand-in-hand; the first does not work without the latter. Which is why everyone laughs at a cloaked Commando. In my estimation, the choice should've been "be sneaky" or "be tanked". (The problem with the GalScout is that it is quite capable of doing both).
^^^
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Spartan MK420
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Posted - 2014.05.23 17:17:00 -
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Nothing Certain wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Nothing Certain wrote:Appia Vibbia wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:
It's like nobody ran scout prior to 1.8. It's like nobody remembers how terrible it is to get scanned constantly. The tacnet system is the most OP mechanic in this game and you're making the stealth class in this game not stealthy at all. Do you guys even acknowledge the fact that the tacnet is ridiculously OP? Why even have a scout class if it can be countered by 1 person?
Just to hone in on this point, I think Zatara Rought made the best case example of why non-scouts (people that never ran scout before 1.8 buff was confirmed) get pissy if they don't have their unbeatable scanners. The problem isn't that scouts can now beat scanners. The problem is with the cloak scouts can now beat scanners and be invisible, this is OP, and is why scouts are prevalent. The solution should have been to make everyone have to choose which they want, to be invisible or to be unscannable, you couldnt be both at once. The problem now, as your posts demonstrate, is that Galscouts can still be both but no one else can. Keeping things as they are was not a solution but the changes just made one scout OP instead of the whole class. This is why I thought there should be a dampening penalty to the cloak, so no one, not even Galscouts can have both. Scouts will still run cloak, scouts will still run dampeners but armor tanking stays a problem, hence the greater movement penalties. You do know that it's pointless being cloaked if there's a chevron over your head right? There's no point in being shimmery and opaque with an effing arrow pointing at your head. Cloak does not grant invisibility no matter how much anyone wants to believe it does. I have eyes and a good monitor. I can see cloaks from over 70m out. Cloaks are not INVISIBILITY and far from it. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. Why would cloaking be worth it if there's an effing chevron over your head while you're cloaked??????? Who are you fooling? Answer: nobody. Dampening and cloaking go hand in hand because if you are scanned while you are cloaked PEOPLE CAN STILL SEE YOU. This completely negates the point of the cloak. You make a good point but I don't see cloaked scouts or even logis with red chevrons over their heads now, even when they are scanned. I don't have dampeners on when I cloak, I get scanned, yet I still seem able to run right past people. I will have to test this out.
I see non dampened cloaked scouts/mediums/commandos all the time. In my opinion the tanked cloaked counter, is the stealth scout :P Flank, and open up on them to the back of the head.
But then again opinions are like....
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Spartan MK420
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Posted - 2014.05.23 17:33:00 -
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He, like some others here, just don't care about the overall survivability of all the scout roles. Including the ewar, assassination (who else is going to sneak past those 2 heavies being repped, and kill their logis?), and other odd tasks they perform for the vitality of the team.
They're just all about nerfing anything and everything that can kill them or hinder their ez mode.
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Spartan MK420
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Posted - 2014.05.23 18:08:00 -
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Aye, poor planning on their part, should not constitute an emergency on ours.
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Spartan MK420
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Posted - 2014.05.24 09:13:00 -
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jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:Firbolg Barun wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:The dark cloud wrote:The new values of 2.5, 5 and 7.5HP/s are before skills i assume? Which would mean we can add another 25% on top of a repper. Which then means it would turn out as 3.125HP/s, 6.25HP/s and 9.375HP7s (basic-complex). Im warning you CCP a gallente heavy will get too close to high amounts of regen with 4 complex reppers. Which means that he can achieve 38,5HP/s (+1HP/s allready added!) which overlaps extremely with the caldari sentinel regen speed (30hp/s on default). You're comparing a Gk.0 that uses all its slots on regen with a ck.0 that uses no slots for regen. If the ck.0 uses its slots for regen as well it has far higher regen (e.g. 63hp/s with 2 rechargers, and 117hp/s with 2 rechargers and 2 energizers). So that seems balanced. Armor reps repairs through damage though. Shield don't. Hence the higher recharge on shields with complex energizers. Its very balanced. I agree, when I said 'that seems balanced' I wasn't being sarcastic! (Though that is hard to get across on the ol' interwebs.) Basically I think the new armour repper numbers are good as they mean a regen-optimized gk.0 is viable, though it would still be way behind a regen-optimized ck.0 in raw regen numbers, as it should be due to the difference in how armour and shields work. Exept gal sent never stops repping And has more armor than aregen tank cal sent has shields.
would be true, if a cal couldn't stack energizers, and wasn't smart enough to make use of the 1s shield recharge delay.
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Posted - 2014.05.26 05:27:00 -
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Cat Merc wrote:Zatara Rought wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Rattati, I would like to know why the 3hp/s armor reps is such an issue that you have to nerf it, when the Caldari Scout regenerates 50hp/s on shields.
You could argue "It's a free built in repairer!", but:
A. With the repairer buff, that is now comparable to an STD repairer rather than ADV
B. Caldari Assault + Complex Energizer still doesn't touch the Caldari Scout regen.
If you have sound reasoning, great, but I believe that reasoning can be applied to the Caldari scout regen.
I don't see why scouts should regenerate faster than assaults.
At this point I believe you're changing numbers for the sake of changing numbers. Comparing it to the cal assault is flawed. COmpare it to the another scout, perhaps specifically the min scout. comparing the gal nerf of 3reps/s and trying to justify a buff or nerf intrinsically through a comparison to the cal regen seems like apples and oranges. they aren't similar enough I feel like to be convincing. You're right. They aren't similar. The Cal Scout beats the crap out of the Gallente scout in regen. I'm saying, if the 3hp/s is a problem, so should the massive regen the Caldari scout has.
i agree, if we had 300 armor, with 3 rep p/s, thats 100 seconds.....takes a shield tanked caldari scout like 5 seconds
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Spartan MK420
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Posted - 2014.05.26 05:29:00 -
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Don't forget about the Packed AV grenades as well. If you want to remove the Gallente light/scout repair then fine, but don't give it to the Amarr light/scout; bad idea. The Amarr scout will just be plain better, more base HP, AND builtin reps. Don't do it. I like what you're doing with cloak field dampening. DO NOT CUT CLOAK FIELD DURATION please, it is not needed. All that is needed is the dampening changes and de-cloak fire delay.  Also, is the Amarr slot thing referring to assault? please say yes EDIT: The CR and AR changes are miniscule, and I don't see how it will change anything. Other than, looks good on first glance.
agreed
ar needs more of a buff :p
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Spartan MK420
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Posted - 2014.05.26 07:54:00 -
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Ok...
Lets start off by saying this.
-The codebreaker modules need to be changed to high slot modules. (gives you more of a reason to be a racial min)
-The caldari prec change is fine, but the gallantes range extension should be equal to it. 3% per lvl.
- The gallante self rep at 3 is fine, with cal reps at 50 p/s, if you nerf one, you should nerf the other.
-The gallante base precision should be lowered (to compensate for keeping the range amp bonus, and to help cal scouts out)
-The gal scout should need 2 complex dampeners/cloak to evade a cal scout, and like wise for a cal with 2 dampeners/cloak to evade a gall scout with 2 complex precision mods
-The ar needs a 4-5% buff, cbr -2%
-The amar assault needs it last slot applied.
-The proto cloak should be active at least 60s. Theres no way to hack an objective, let alone even run across the fields to get there with the current times.
CCP please reevaluate your proposed changes, and think it through a bit more.
I believe my ideas may be of use :(
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Spartan MK420
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Posted - 2014.05.26 09:49:00 -
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CCP Rattati wrote:Dear players,
Swarms as AV - We don't want to change too many things at the same time. Improving swarms to counter tanks, will affect dropships as well.
Changing swarms from Explosive to Hybrid is not a direction we want to take, even if it would give Calmandos an AV edge. We are more looking at granting some sort of AV bonuses to all Commandos.
[/list]
Again, thanks for the constructive and positive feedback,
CCP Rattati
how about give commando's reload/av damage for their 2 weapons
and assaults the dmg/dispersion (and maybe give them the same slot layout of the logi, to make them more appealing to slayers, ofc thats with assaults keeping 1 equipment slot, )
or a 2nd grenade slot, with the upcoming nade/hive changes
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Spartan MK420
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Posted - 2014.05.26 13:16:00 -
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Firbolg Barun wrote:I still dont get why the scan range needs to be nerfed, it has been 5% per level for gal scouts both before 1.8 and after 1.8. No-one complained about it before 1.8.  Scouts are fine. Dont cave in to the crybabies here.
exactly
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Spartan MK420
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Posted - 2014.05.26 21:59:00 -
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Xx-VxF-xX wrote:XxGhazbaranxX wrote:So let me get this straight, The gallente scout is getting all it's ewar nerfed, specially the range while the cal;dari gets to keeps a 3% to range per level...
I have never used a brick tanks and now with these changes you have just nerfed the gallente intel ewar ability to complete uselessness. I am serious the gallente scout has had the range bonus since before the changes to scouts and no one ever complained until brick tanked scouts became a thing, which means that the problem is not the scan range.
The problem is and always has been brick tanked scouts and that second equipment slot which is unnecessary. Either you cloak or you don't and fit remotes or whatever.
CCP this is crazy... If you dont change the brick tanking ability all you dod was make the gall scout remain more as an assault.
DON"T take the scan range that it has always had now. Before 1.8 the Gal scout had the role of eWAR scanner that is now the Cal scouts job. Cal is intel gathering - precision/range Gal is denial of intel - dampening/? - since nobody want them to have any kind of cloak bonus even though it fits. Since Cal can share there vision maybe a gal can share its dampening within there scan range? kinda like a dampening field/precision scrambler, lol
a squad of 6 gall scouts=ninja warriors there
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Posted - 2014.05.27 14:25:00 -
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Thor Odinson42 wrote:I wish REs would suffer a similar fate as locus grenades. I don't think there is a deadlier, cheap SP investment in the game.
agreed. op XD
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Posted - 2014.05.27 14:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:Fears over armor reps being too strong are not without reason. Armor reps for vehicles are too strong to the point that any vehicle with a armor rep build are immune to most AV weaponry and small turret fire. The fear that problem may arise in infantry with an armor repairer buff isn't insane. Shields: low health, does not recharge if hit, high recharge rate, longer recharge delay Armor: high health, constant regeneration, low repair rate, slower movement Shield recharge rates vary from 15-50 HP/sec with most suits having a recharge rate of 20HP/sec (someone fact check this please, was too lazy to look at all suit stats and find the mode). If armor repairers preform similar or better than shields, armor repairers will effectively steal one of the few positives shield tanking has; especially when combined with the fact that armor reps work constantly. Why are armor repairers being buffed again? 
because it takes like 3 to tie a shield guys regen (on a gall assault, that leaves 1 slot for amor, The shield recharge doesn't require a slot. So they can still shield tank/energize and have natural reps :p
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