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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 19 post(s) |
Ryme Intrinseca
The Rainbow Effect
1247
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Posted - 2014.05.23 10:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
Overall this looks quite good. People are poo-pooing the AR/CR changes, but it might be enough to tempt me back to the Duvolle.
Still, I have some concerns:
1. I really agree with the dampening reduction on cloaks and the increased decloak delay. But I think you are going too far with the cloak duration nerf. Maybe a 25% reduction would be more around the mark given the other cloak nerfs, otherwise you risk making it a marginal item and we'll be back to 1.7.
2. Don't understand the reasoning about not buffing swarms because that would affect dropships. That would be a good thing! You do realize an ADS can basically ignore swarms at present? What is the point in having specialized roles that are so much worse at their 'speciality' than non-specialized roles are at it (e.g. tanks, which threaten infantry and vehicles alike)? Note, I have no axe to grind here, I don't have a single SP into swarms.
3. This is a minor issue, but why nerf AV nade restock at nanohive? Is this really a problem at present? If infantry have time to restock multiple grenades (which is the only time the change would make any difference) then the tanker has put themselves in an awfully vulnerable position, probably getting greedy for infantry kills rolling into a tight space where they don't belong.
Finally, I think there is a typo for the repair module. It says % when it should say hp/s. That change looks good though. |
Ryme Intrinseca
The Rainbow Effect
1249
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Posted - 2014.05.23 10:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:The new values of 2.5, 5 and 7.5HP/s are before skills i assume? Which would mean we can add another 25% on top of a repper. Which then means it would turn out as 3.125HP/s, 6.25HP/s and 9.375HP7s (basic-complex). Im warning you CCP a gallente heavy will get too close to high amounts of regen with 4 complex reppers. Which means that he can achieve 38,5HP/s (+1HP/s allready added!) which overlaps extremely with the caldari sentinel regen speed (30hp/s on default). You're comparing a Gk.0 that uses all its slots on regen with a ck.0 that uses no slots for regen. If the ck.0 uses its slots for regen as well it has far higher regen (e.g. 63hp/s with 2 rechargers, and 117hp/s with 2 rechargers and 2 energizers). So that seems balanced. |
Ryme Intrinseca
The Rainbow Effect
1249
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 10:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Alright.
These are mostly a good set of changes with the ideas behind them solid. However, I have a few concerns.
Firstly, on the various grenade changes - Core locus grenades do not need a buff. They are already handheld nuclear weapons. Correct airbursting will allow you to kill any non-heavy in one grenade.
I am curious as to why you opted to increase AV grenade damage rather than just revert the grenade count change. I feel that while that was justified on the locus to reduce grenade spam (as grenades were becoming comparatively more effective killing tools with 1.8 TTK changes) there was never any need to reduce the count on either AV or flux grenades.
I do not believe contact grenades need a nerf. They're already barely used, further reductions in damage are unnecessary.
I'm a huge fan of these cloak changes. 0/2.5/5% profile dampening bonuses make barely any difference and I can't see any time that would actually have a real effect, but removing the dampening bonus cloaks give is a nice tweak. The duration change! That was unexpected, but I love it!
I've never taken the cloak to prototype, but now I have a reason to. Good work! I do have a question though - are the recharge rates changing?
The armour changes look okay. Active reps appear to be done as a % though - they're not changing from a linear HP/s are they?
Basic plates have long needed to take up more than 1 PG, that's a good change. However, complex appears to have had its requirements increased while enhanced has had a decrease. This seems odd to me - enhanced plates have always felt like the gold standard for armour plates while the complex was an overly expensive variant that I never bothered with.
Ferroscale and reactive changes are nice, as are the reps.
AR/CR changes are pretty pathetic, 2% changes won't make a single bullet of difference in the vast, vast majority of cases. I recommend having a look at the number of bullets taken to kill rather than considering it just as a %. If there's zero change in bullets to kill there is zero change in TTK, so the change is pointless. As it is, I doubt there'll be any change in bullets required to kill except on 1000+ EHP suits.
Plasma cannon changes are eh and I still won't use it for serious AV but it's nice to finally see some love for them.
I notice you've cancelled the movement of the Gallente passive rep to the Amarr suit (at least for this patch). I'd just like to say that it makes no sense to move the reps from the active tankers to the passive tankers. Instead, I recommend increasing the base armour HP on the Amarr suit. Actually, I'd recommend that across the board. I notice you've also suggested an increase in the number of slots some Amarr suits have - for the Amarr assault, that's overdue. I look forward to that change.
Changes to the large blaster dispersion = HELL YES. I greatly look forward to there being fewer instagib infantry Madrugars roaming about (or at least less effectively). I mostly agree, but on the CR/AR thing, I think a 4% shift (2% nerf+2% buff) can make a difference. Look at how many people have taken up the ACR (<3) just because it was nerfed less than other rifles (8% rather than 10-15%).
Still, ideally I think AR/CR would be a 3% buff/nerf. |
Ryme Intrinseca
The Rainbow Effect
1250
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 10:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Zaria Min Deir wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:
2. Don't understand the reasoning about not buffing swarms because that would affect dropships. That would be a good thing! You do realize an ADS can basically ignore swarms at present? What is the point in having specialized roles that are so much worse at their 'speciality' than non-specialized roles are at it (e.g. tanks, which threaten infantry and vehicles alike)? Note, I have no axe to grind here, I don't have a single SP into swarms.
3. This is a minor issue, but why nerf AV nade restock at nanohive? Is this really a problem at present? If infantry have time to restock multiple grenades (which is the only time the change would make any difference) then the tanker has put themselves in an awfully vulnerable position, probably getting greedy for infantry kills rolling into a tight space where they don't belong.
Yes. This. Swarms (yes, MULTIPLE swarmers working together) are just laughed off by ADS pilots. They are pretty much entirely unkillable by swarms except in the case of terribad pilot or getting extremely unlucky. So why worry about a minor swarm buff affecting dropships? When that's exactly what we need, for swarms to have at least some effect on ADSs? And I really don't see a need for the increased nanite count on AV nades. I already deplete a proto hive after throwing 2 nades as it is. In all fairness, we are discussing completely eliminating the restocking of all grenades by nanohives, this is the moderated proposal. (We would keep them for supply depots) A problem with eliminating nanohive nade restock is that you're thereby protecting high ground campers. There are points on the map that you can only access via a dropship, sometimes directly overlooking an objective (e.g. Bravo in Gallente Research Facility). So unless you can get a dropship up there yourself (sometimes impossible due to rails or forges) the campers will stay there at least until an orbital becomes available. But there is a last resort at present, which is to stand under the campers lobbing cooked locus at them. You have a bad angle and can't really see what you're throwing at, so you go through protohives in an instant, but sometimes it is the one way to encourage people to get down from their perch and actually play the game.
I do see where you're coming from, as you don't want to encourage people to sit on hives spamming nades in normal circumstances, which I totally agree with. But I think the current high nanite cost of restocking grenades does that, as it gobbles up the hives so quickly that nade spammer can't be your go-to role, while giving a way of responding to cheap enemy tactics.
You also didn't address the swarm issue... |
Ryme Intrinseca
The Rainbow Effect
1250
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 11:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote: I mostly agree, but on the CR/AR thing, I think a 4% shift (2% nerf+2% buff) can make a difference. Look at how many people have taken up the ACR (<3) just because it was nerfed less than other rifles (8% rather than 10-15%).
Still, ideally I think AR/CR would be a 3% buff/nerf.
But it doesn't, that's the point. If you have a 2% change on each and neither changes the number of bullets required to kill, there is no net change. People didn't just take up the ACR because it took half the damage nerf that some of the other weapons did. There are a whole host of reasons for choosing the ACR over the AR - better damage profile (especially important with the proficiency changes), better range, better RoF (important on the slowdown effect)... In some cases, a 2% buff to AR will decrease the number of bullets required to kill by 1. For instance, someone with 500 eHP (vs AR damage profile) will go down in 16 bullets to a current Duvolle (33*15=495) and 15 to a post-buff Duvolle (33.66*15=504.9), and someone with 600 eHP (vs AR damage profile) will go down in 19 bullets to a current Duvolle (33*18=594) and 18 to a post-buff Duvolle (33.66*18=605.9). And so on for 700eHP, 800 eHP, 900 eHP, 1000 eHP.
Is it a big difference? No, not at all. Might that and the CR nerf move some people back to AR? A few, yes. [Enters fittings, puts Balac's on Quafe scout gk.0] |
Ryme Intrinseca
The Rainbow Effect
1254
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 08:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Firbolg Barun wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:The dark cloud wrote:The new values of 2.5, 5 and 7.5HP/s are before skills i assume? Which would mean we can add another 25% on top of a repper. Which then means it would turn out as 3.125HP/s, 6.25HP/s and 9.375HP7s (basic-complex). Im warning you CCP a gallente heavy will get too close to high amounts of regen with 4 complex reppers. Which means that he can achieve 38,5HP/s (+1HP/s allready added!) which overlaps extremely with the caldari sentinel regen speed (30hp/s on default). You're comparing a Gk.0 that uses all its slots on regen with a ck.0 that uses no slots for regen. If the ck.0 uses its slots for regen as well it has far higher regen (e.g. 63hp/s with 2 rechargers, and 117hp/s with 2 rechargers and 2 energizers). So that seems balanced. Armor reps repairs through damage though. Shield don't. Hence the higher recharge on shields with complex energizers. Its very balanced. I agree, when I said 'that seems balanced' I wasn't being sarcastic! (Though that is hard to get across on the ol' interwebs.) Basically I think the new armour repper numbers are good as they mean a regen-optimized gk.0 is viable, though it would still be way behind a regen-optimized ck.0 in raw regen numbers, as it should be due to the difference in how armour and shields work. |
Ryme Intrinseca
The Rainbow Effect
1254
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 10:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:Firbolg Barun wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:The dark cloud wrote:The new values of 2.5, 5 and 7.5HP/s are before skills i assume? Which would mean we can add another 25% on top of a repper. Which then means it would turn out as 3.125HP/s, 6.25HP/s and 9.375HP7s (basic-complex). Im warning you CCP a gallente heavy will get too close to high amounts of regen with 4 complex reppers. Which means that he can achieve 38,5HP/s (+1HP/s allready added!) which overlaps extremely with the caldari sentinel regen speed (30hp/s on default). You're comparing a Gk.0 that uses all its slots on regen with a ck.0 that uses no slots for regen. If the ck.0 uses its slots for regen as well it has far higher regen (e.g. 63hp/s with 2 rechargers, and 117hp/s with 2 rechargers and 2 energizers). So that seems balanced. Armor reps repairs through damage though. Shield don't. Hence the higher recharge on shields with complex energizers. Its very balanced. I agree, when I said 'that seems balanced' I wasn't being sarcastic! (Though that is hard to get across on the ol' interwebs.) Basically I think the new armour repper numbers are good as they mean a regen-optimized gk.0 is viable, though it would still be way behind a regen-optimized ck.0 in raw regen numbers, as it should be due to the difference in how armour and shields work. Exept gal sent never stops repping And has more armor than aregen tank cal sent has shields. Never stops repping is what I meant by 'the difference in how armour and shields work'.
Gk.0 does not have more armour than ck.0 has shields. Remember, we are talking about rep-tanking both suits, so all gk.0 lows have reppers and all ck.0 highs have energiziers/rechargers. In that scenario they have exactly the same amount of main tank (525). So that is not a factor.
Look at the numbers again. The ck.0 can achieve 117hp/s while gk.0 can only manage 38.5hp/s. So ck.0 has a massive regen rate advantage. This is balanced by the fact that gk.0 regens even under fire (albeit at that slower rate).
Sometimes I wonder if people will only be happy when shield and armour have exactly the same hp values and exactly the same regen characteristics, just with different names. |
Ryme Intrinseca
The Rainbow Effect
1254
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 12:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote:Energisers remove hp After skills gallente has more armor than cal has shieles In 3 seconds or less gallente has repped more or same armor as cal would have shield, un interupted And gallente have shields over armor I will be happy when shields have no delay or rep even faster. Shield skills increase hp as much as armour skills do. Both suits are at 656.25hp with full skills.
But you're right, I forgot to take energizer HP reduction into account. But as I said, even with 2 rechargers and no energizers, ck.0 has much higher regen than a gk.0 that uses all lows on regen. And of course the ck.0 will have higher HP as well in that case as it will have more slots free for tank.
The caldari suit undoubtedly has its advantages (dat depleted delay ) and a little buff for armour reppers won't take away it's king of rep crown. In fact it is a slight buff for ck.0 as well as they'll usually carry a repper. |
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